Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
The journey from then to now
Published on February 13, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

The original back story from 1990...

The universe that Galactic Civilizations exists in came long before the game.  They come from a series of manuscripts that I wrote in the late 80s and early 90s.  The stories were titled:

  1. The Terran Alliance
  2. The Defender
  3. Revenge of the Defender
  4. Twilight of the Morning Star
  5. The Yor
  6. Corruption of the Shard

As well as 3 not-so-completed manuscripts

  1. Guardians of the Telenanth
  2. Draginol
  3. Mascrinthus

Drengin / Terran Wars

The first 6 stories told of the rise of the human race in the 23rd century.  Like most stories, it's character driven. The main character is called DL Bradley, an officer in the Terran Alliance.  As the 23rd century is nearly ready to dawn, the humans have been trying to form a United Planets with the Drengin Empire, Arceans, Altarians, and Torian Confederacy. And for a time, they are actually successful.  All of the 5 major civilizations are part of it.

At this stage, there is no hyperdrive. Ships travel purely via the star gates.  And the Drengin and Arceans had been operating in the galaxy through star gates for nearly a hundred thousand years.  And the Drengin plan to attack the Arceans had been in motion for over 50,000 years.  Since any attack could be thwarted by simply shutting down the receiving star gate, the Drengin hatched a plan to have unmanned drones literally tow via normal space star gates that would be parked within the solar system of Arcean colonies.  So the arrival of the Terran Alliance at the dawn of the 23rd century and their attempts to build an interstellar coalition of friendship, commerce, and trade was more of an inconvenient distraction for the Drengin.  They weren't about to give up their ambitions.  The Drengin had, by far, the largest military in that part of the galaxy (little at this point is known about the rest of the galaxy).

So the Drengin star gates finally arrive at their destinations in 2178. They then proceed to launch their massive attack against the Arcean colonies.  The Arceans, of course, are taken by surprise and lose control of a couple of their star gates.  As a result, most of the Arcean Empire is obliterated.  The Arcean home world and one other colony are all that remain.

Meanwhile, not all is good on Earth.  Human culture has gone through a great deal of soul searching over the past 100 years.  On the one hand, humanity had put itself up as the diplomats and merchants of the galaxy.  But on the other hand, the Terran Alliance had put together a fairly lethal, though small military which protected that commerce.  In fact, many of the minor civilizations such as the Korx and Vegans simply shipped their goods aboard Terran Alliance merchant ships since they could count on their deliveries being safe from piracy due to the protection of the Terran Alliance navy.

Mind you, the Terran Alliance military was nothing compared to say the Arcean Empire's let alone the massive Drengin Empire star navy.  But it was a potent little force all the same.  The leadership on Earth had little inclination to build up beyond this.  After all, the United Planets would take care of any disputes in the future. War was a relic of the past.  This caused some issues with some of the officers in the Terran navy who wanted to see adventure and glory.  One such person was Lorina Gates who was top of her class.  Many humans served as advisors to militaries on a variety of worlds because as nice and peaceful as humans seemed to be, they were considered by many the best tacticians in the known galaxy. 

However, no humans served as advisors to the Drengin Empire.  It was the ambition of many naval officers to be considered so excellent that even the Drengin Empire would want their advice and instruction. 

As the war between the Arceans and Drengin went into a stalemate (because of the limitations of the star gates), Drengin intelligence discovered that the humans had come up with a new type of drive system that would make the star gates irrelevant -- Hyperdrive.  The humans even had a prototype ship called the TAS Defender.  The ship even had a new type of defense called shields.  While all the other ships in all the other militaries defended their ships using various types of armor vs. various kinds of plasma beams, the humans had come up with a way to make their ships largely invulnerable against that type of weapon.  It was believed that the TAS Defender could probably take on, by itself, a half dozen Drengin Battle Cruisers.  If the humans built enough such ships, they could completely alter the balance in the quadrant.  The Drengin needed to get that ship and learn its secrets.

Lorina Gates was not aware of any of this.  The Drengin appraoched her and said that they were indeed impressed with her accomplishments but that they did not trust humans to not be spies.  They want someone who was totally loyal to them.  Lorina was willing to do anything to demonstrate her worthiness.  The Drengin seized on this and told her that she would need to steal the TAS Defender and deliver it to them.  She was not told of the special nature of this ship.  By all accounts, the ship was not that remarkable.  Its weapons were a bit better than most but it was much more lightly armored than the typical ship (since it had shields but she didn't know this).  But they needed to know that she was fully committed to this.

Since Earth had become a decadent pacifist, from her point of view and the war with the Arceans could have ended at any time, she made her choice and sealed her fate.  She, and some other like minded cadets stole the ship.  Not knowing of its Hyperdrive capabilities meant that they literally had to take the Terran star gate network to get to Drengin space.

After doing battle with the TAS Vanguard, an older but very heavily armored ship, the Defender was nearly ready to get away when a Lt. DL Bradley took command after the death of the captain and was able to send a signal to the star gate to malfunction before the Defender could escape.  At this point, the Vanguard crew, far outnumbering Lorina's crew, boraded the Defender.  Lorina was able to escape through a shuttle pod through the star gate still. But the Defender was back in the hands of the Terran Alliance.

The Drengin then declared war.

The first 3 books outline the Drengin war and introduce readers to the mysterious Arnorians (the Arnor). 

The 4th story, Twlight of the Morningstar, tells of the fate of one Arnorian who was helping the humans.  The last two stories deal primarily with the Yor and tie the rest of the stories together, introduce the Iconians and Thalan and resolve the various plot lines.  I won't go into too much detail on those because Galactic Civilizations III will borrow heavily from those particular stories.

The Mithrilar

The other 3 stories take place long long before there were even humans.  It deals with how the universe got started in the first place.  And it fully explains why the Altarians and the Humans look so similar.  The first story deals with how the Arnor came to be as well as how they split into two groups.  The Arnor were a flawed creation.  Their maker could not decide how best to go about creating beings of incredible power to help guide the rest of creation.  The maker of the Arnorians was one of the 5 Mithrilar.  There were originally only supposed to be 4 of them but a 5th Mithrilar came seemingly from another dimension in which the universe was collapsing upon itself.  There was something wrong with him but none of the other Mithrilar could quite put their finger on it. He was simply known as the Dark Mithrilar.

The first 100 Arnorians that were created were immensely powerful and made in the image of the dark Mithrilar.  The next 1,000 Arnorians were similar but less powerful.  And then the next 10,000 were generally less powerful but had two significant differences -- they could reproduce and were insensitive to the passage of time.  The dark Mithrilar was different from the others of his kind because he could sense the passage of time.  A great deal of time is spent considering the significance of that -- ever imagined living 1000 years?  What about 10,000 years? What about a million? Even if you were in perfect health, how long before you went mad?  The dark Arnorian had long gone mad because of this.  But not so mad that he didn't recognize the source of his pain. 

For a long while, the Arnor were content.  But time would do its work.  The Arnor that were sensitive to time slowly became twisted as thousands and then hundreds of thousands of years passed while the other Arnor were completely oblivious to it.  Most Arnor could sit down and ponder a mountain and watch plate tectonics in action. They could sit motionless that long because they had no need for food or sleep and time meant nothing. 

Eventually the twisted 1,100 Arnors began preying on the rest.  They found a way to drain the power from the lesser Arnor and put it into an orb-like device.  This device became ever more powerful as a result of the leeching of power from the lesser Arnor.  In time, the Arnorians fought back and named their oppressors as the Dread Lords.  Or more specifically, the 100 most powerful were the Dread Lords and the rest were simply Dread Knights. 

In the end the Dread Lords were defeated and the few that remained driven off of Arnor.  But the remaining Arnorians were a shadow of what they once were.

Ironically, this story is told as a story by an Arnorian who is found on an alien world called Altaria.  A cataclysm had occurred and changed all of existence and the dark Mithrilar, called Draginol (that's the source of my on-line handle btw), was also on Altaria.

The second two stories deal with the Altarians trying to resist the evil Draginol and his forces and the aid of Mascrinthus, the last surviving Mithrilar other than Draginol.

The ending of this actually sets in motion the original stories creating a loop.

Evolution into the Galactic Civilizations Universe

For a strategy game, the characters no longer were central to the story.  People create their own characters in their games and the civilizations themselves take center stage.

The core elements remain true:

  1. The Drengin Empire and Arcean Empire have been powerful space faring civilizations for eons.
  2. The Torain Confederacy was once enslaved by the Drengin Emprie.
  3. The Altarians seem to have "powers" that we don't quite understand and aren't quite trusted by the humans because they have an almost religious zeal in their actions
  4. The Yor see all biological life as a threat and ultimately are searching for a deeper meaning for their existence
  5. The Korx are still the vile but ultimate capitalistic society -- laisser-faire taken to the Nth degree.

We wanted to create a universe where the Terran Alliance are at a cross-roads. Those clever monkeys from Sol III are pretty darn good at killing stuff but they seem to almost be over compensating by trying to be nice, diplomatic, and polite.  The Terran Alliance had a weapon that none were familiar with -- pop culture.  Their influence tended to spread far from their borders.  There's nothing more frightening than seeing a Torian wearing blue jeans.

Which path players want to take the Terrans is up to them.  And in Galactic Civilizations II, they can take charge of any of the 10 major civilizations or create their own unique one.  So do you play the Torians and go for vengeance against the Drengin?  Do you play as the Thalan who have come from the an alternative future that exists in the Galactic Civilizations III timeline and snuff out the Terran Alliance before they destroy the universe?  Or do you play as the evil Drengin who want to conquer everyone because skin is so good and variety truly is the spice of life.

From Galactic Civilizations I to Galactic Civilizations II

If you didn't play the first Galactic Civilizations, you didn't miss much from a story point of view.  We just didn't have the budget.  I would love to go back and do something about that but that will have to come at some other time.

The Altarian Prophecy helped a little bit but essentially the first Galactic Civilizations game could be summed up as follows:

The humans discover hyperdrive and the technology leaks to the other major civilizations in short order.  Now they must race to capture planets.  However, during this race, the Drengin begin to recognize a threat in the humans.  The humans behave like they just want to unite the galaxy in peace and trade. 

The Drengin secretly prop up a minor race known as the Xendar.  The Xendar become a pretty formidable military threat and launch an invasion against several human worlds.  The goal of the Drengin was to keep the Terrans down and to make clear to the others, particularly the Arceans and the Altarians, that teaming up with the humans would be folly.  After the events of the Altarian Prophecy where the humans showed some military ability against the Korx and Drath in a handful of skirmishes, the Drengin weren't sure what would happen with the Xendar.

The Drengin made sure that the Xendar had the latest Drengin military hardware (disguised) and the Xendar themselves were a fierce warrior society.  The only reason they weren't a major power was because they simply did not get their hands on hyperdrive until too late.  Otherwise they'd have been one of the major civs. 

But then the humans did something that the Drengin totally didn't expect.  The Humans crushed the Xendar ruthlessly.  The Terran Alliance wasn't a paper tiger after all.  Worse, the humans were cunning in a way that the Drengin had not seen in other civilizations.  The Terran military didn't attack with savagery or brutality.  The Terran navy worked like a surgeon cutting the Xendar to pieces.  Within two years, the Terran Alliance had absolutely brought the Xendar to their knees.  Before the Xendar could tell the humans the Drengin's involvement, Drengin agents unleashed a long prepared neural toxin into the air of the Xendar home world killing every Xendar on the planet.  The Xendar are now all but wiped out and not an issue at this stage.  Those that exist in the galaxy blame the humans.

The Drengin now knew, however, that the Terran Alliance had a steel fist inside their velvet glove. They were wolves and sheep's clothing.  But they were also a very young race and not that powerful yet.  Given time, however, and the humans could become the ultimate power in the galaxy.  The only way that could happen is if they were given the time to become dominant.  The Drengin's plan to stop this was to first remove the Terran's friend -- the Arceans.  Then the Altarians would be next and finally the humans.  Left on their own, the humans simply hadn't put together the economic or industrial might to compete against the Drengin Empire.

In 2225, the Drengin were set and the war was launched against the Arceans. But the humans did something unexpected -- they voluntarily came to the aid of the Arceans. No treaty. No obligation. They simply aided the Arceans against "aggression" which the Drengin simply can't grasp why anyone would do that.

Galactic Civilizations II is the main event. The story of the Drengin / Human war and the return of the dark Arnor. We hope you like it.


Comments (Page 6)
on Feb 01, 2007
Fantastic story! I just purchased GC2 and started playing it. I will say it will take some getting use to. In the furure hope to purchase Dark Avatar gold.

I do have a few questions that are bugging me.

Stargates the nonhuman races are suppose to use before hyperdrive, a human invention. The are suppose to be using stargate tech. A to B, known points using precurser tech that is left over from the Avatars. The ships using a sublight speed to get to the gates. Why the gates not in the game? Are these non-humans able to build them?

Human a new race has no knowledge of these other races, until first contact.
So until then other nonhumans will not have hyperdrive tech. Which gives the human's and advantage in exploration and colonization. While the other nonhuman races crawl to explore new star systems until first contact and the humans trade away this advantage. So how did the non-humans get it?

As old spacefaring non-humans not have there worlds already established? They only lack the hyperdrive. So why is this not represented in the game?

Brad, is my logic flawed in your universe? If so please correct me.

mudmarine
on Feb 03, 2007

Actually, farming was initiated right after the last ice age, when glaciars retreated and therefore made terrain viable for farming - and climate improvements helped too of course
I find it difficult to believe that for almost 100,000 years 2 space-faring civs, which had already sent probes to other star systems (can't think of what kind of propulsion those probes have too...), couldn't think of fusion which is right on their faces - their systems have suns too, right? Humans didn't need the internet or advanced communications systems to "find" fusion.
The game looks good, but the story is very weak IMO. All of it is supported by the Humans inventing the HyperDrive, which is really very lame. The Drengin making those 2 ludicrous 70,000 and 50,000 year trips (vs the Torians and the Arceans) just makes it even more of a stretch. Also, including time travel in a story is always the best way to shoot yourself on the foot, and begs to ask why didn't the Thalans eliminate the Humans right from the emergence of the race - Duh!
In game terms, there's a few details related to the races that are awkward if you think about them, like a synthetic race caring about happiness and taxes? Tourism during times of war? Insect-like beings able to pilot, let alone build starships (or computers for that matter)?

 

First off, I am familiar with the history of the fertile crecent. I didn't imply that farming started any differently. I am simply pointing out that 100,000 years ago, the Drengin and Arceans were already advanced civilizations while humans were hunting and gathering.

Secondly, you state it's a stretch that the Drengin and Arceans couldn't figure out hyperdrive or fusion power? Why is that a stretch?

Anotomical humans went hundreds of thousands of years before figuring out how to fish!

Heck, even humans presumed to be genetically identical to modern humans didn't improve their tool set (they were still using hand axes until recently) until near modern times.  And yet it's surprising that the Drengin and Arceans didn't make the leap to making cold fusion?

We've known about gravity for awhile yet we still have no idea how to manipulate it. Heck, we can't even account for most of the mass of the universe.

My philosophy is that never underestimate the power of a unified culture to stifle technological innovation.  The Arceans and Drengin have both lived on unified worlds for hundreds of thousands of years. They both have imperial-style governments which rule by decree. What is the incentive for technlogical innovation when what they have works?

What makes the humans unique in the GalCiv universe is that they've historically been divided with competing ideologies and visions based on multiple nation states.  None of the other home worlds in Galciv have nearly as much water as Earth does either which creates a very different geography.

With slightly different geographical conditions, we might still be basically hunting and gathering.  The western hemisphere was still largely hunting and gathering (other than the Mayans and Aztechs who ha dno written language and were barely farming, had no work animals -- the llama can't be ridden, and no large seed crops).

So when I say that the Drengin and Arceans had not moved their interstellar travel forward beyond the Stargates (which I think are pretty impressive technological achievements) it's not based on a quick whim but based on a different set of assumptions and circumstances on a cultures that have less diversity and competition and are far FAR older than our own.

Recognizing fusion and mastering it well enough to create gobs of energy into a tiny space are two very different things. Technological innovation is something we take for granted today but isn't something we should assume is universal to every culture.

on Feb 03, 2007

Stargates the nonhuman races are suppose to use before hyperdrive, a human invention. The are suppose to be using stargate tech. A to B, known points using precurser tech that is left over from the Avatars. The ships using a sublight speed to get to the gates. Why the gates not in the game? Are these non-humans able to build them?

Human a new race has no knowledge of these other races, until first contact.
So until then other nonhumans will not have hyperdrive tech. Which gives the human's and advantage in exploration and colonization. While the other nonhuman races crawl to explore new star systems until first contact and the humans trade away this advantage. So how did the non-humans get it?

As old spacefaring non-humans not have there worlds already established? They only lack the hyperdrive. So why is this not represented in the game?

Stargates were invented by the Arceans and the Drengin.  With them, they were able to send ships between any two stargates that they had completed.

We don't know what exactly the Arceans and Drengin did in those years other than the Torian incident. And the only reason we know about the Torians is because of human contact with them.

The humans saw how stargates worked -- that they folded space by using great amounts of energy to do it -- and improved on it in the form of hyperdrive.  The UEG (United Earth Government) did not give Hyperdrive away. It was leaked out by activists in the scientific community who wrongly assumed that other civilizations were as "enlightened" as they were. (why did the US let the Soviets get nuclear weapons?).

 

on Feb 05, 2007
I am simply pointing out that 100,000 years ago, the Drengin and Arceans were already advanced civilizations while humans were hunting and gathering.

Secondly, you state it's a stretch that the Drengin and Arceans couldn't figure out hyperdrive or fusion power? Why is that a stretch?[/quote]



So in (an additional) 100k years, * already very advanced civs (already with space techs, and able to build stargates!) couldn't figure out something that a very recent civ discovered in the very beginning of their space age... yep, very believable. Fusion power is so basic a concept to any advanced physicist that this doesn't begin to make sense.



Anotomical humans went hundreds of thousands of years before figuring out how to fish!
Heck, even humans presumed to be genetically identical to modern humans didn't improve their tool set (they were still using hand axes until recently) until near modern times. And yet it's surprising that the Drengin and Arceans didn't make the leap to making cold fusion?




Again, we're talking civs in an advanced level of tech, not in their primitive forms. More than 40 years ago there weren't even transistors, now look at what we have. Do't compare what is not comparable.



We've known about gravity for awhile yet we still have no idea how to manipulate it. Heck, we can't even account for most of the mass of the universe.




Is that "while" close to 100,000 years?
And we are begining to have a pretty good idea on that mass, and the discovery of the existence of that mass is rather recent. So it was a pretty fast development.



My philosophy is that never underestimate the power of a unified culture to stifle technological innovation. The Arceans and Drengin have both lived on unified worlds for hundreds of thousands of years. They both have imperial-style governments which rule by decree. What is the incentive for technlogical innovation when what they have works?




Since when did an imperial style government preclude the advancement of technology?!
Anyway, we know empires never lasted on earth, and chances are they wouldn't work for any other race. Especially for several hundreds of thousands of years. And what about the other races in the universe? They weren't all empires, were they? The Iconians, which start the game with Ion Drive?



With slightly different geographical conditions, we might still be basically hunting and gathering.




Because they were the farthest from the "birth of civilization"?! With oceans in between?



So when I say that the Drengin and Arceans had not moved their interstellar travel forward beyond the Stargates (which I think are pretty impressive technological achievements)




I'd say far more impressive than fusion power... how they managed one without the other is beyond me.



[quote]it's not based on a quick whim but based on a different set of assumptions and circumstances on a cultures that have less diversity and competition and are far FAR older than our own.


Yet they managed to develop Stargates... Uau. Even being an imperialist gov, and with no competition.
You know what is really strange? The Drengin knew it'd take 50k years for their plans vs the Arceans to be in place. Instead of investing in research for better propulsion, they prefered to wait all that time. And you know that even the smallest craft doesn't hold for a few years in space without malfunctions...

One question still unanswered. What kind of propulsion did they use in their probes? Because those would also take hundreds of thousands of years to reach other solar systems, and that much again to send info back.



EDIT: can't seem to have quotes work properly, parts of my answer is within the quoted text.

on Feb 06, 2007

Yet they managed to develop Stargates... Uau. Even being an imperialist gov, and with no competition.
You know what is really strange? The Drengin knew it'd take 50k years for their plans vs the Arceans to be in place. Instead of investing in research for better propulsion, they prefered to wait all that time. And you know that even the smallest craft doesn't hold for a few years in space without malfunctions...

One question still unanswered. What kind of propulsion did they use in their probes? Because those would also take hundreds of thousands of years to reach other solar systems, and that much again to send info back.

The Torian home world isn't that far away in terms of light years so you're not tlaking thousands of years to send communications back.

As for the rest...If you think you can come up with a better fictional sci-fi universe, feel free to create it and publish it.    Be sure to contact Harry Turtle Dove and Orson Scott Card and inform them as well how dumb their creations are (because they have very similar sci-fi cultures).

In the meantime, you'll just have to accept that in the GalCiv universe, these alien cultures reached a level of propulsion technology that they assumed could not go any further.

 

on Feb 07, 2007
The Torian home world isn't that far away in terms of light years so you're not tlaking thousands of years to send communications back.


Hmm, so why did it take 70k years for the stargate to get there?! I'm not trying to make an issue out of this, I merely replied to your farming explanation, and pointed out some inconsistencies in the story. And there are a lot. For instance, how did the Arceans and Drengin communicate with each other to invent the stargate? That's before there were stargates, when comms should have been extremely difficult... and the probes and mapping the universe, and powering the Torian stargate, etc.
The fact that there are * slightly different versions of the background story doesn't help either...

As for the rest...If you think you can come up with a better fictional sci-fi universe, feel free to create it and publish it. Be sure to contact Harry Turtle Dove and Orson Scott Card and inform them as well how dumb their creations are (because they have very similar sci-fi cultures).


You mean it's a copy?   

In the meantime, you'll just have to accept that in the GalCiv universe, these alien cultures reached a level of propulsion technology that they assumed could not go any further.


That's a pretty stupid assumption for space faring civs, since the propulsion level they have is the most basic you can get. That's what I've been saying. The game deserves a more consistent storyline (and better QA), but who cares, right?
on Feb 07, 2007

Hmm, so why did it take 70k years for the stargate to get there?! I'm not trying to make an issue out of this, I merely replied to your farming explanation, and pointed out some inconsistencies in the story. And there are a lot. For instance, how did the Arceans and Drengin communicate with each other to invent the stargate? That's before there were stargates, when comms should have been extremely difficult... and the probes and mapping the universe, and powering the Torian stargate, etc.
The fact that there are * slightly different versions of the background story doesn't help either...

The stargate was constructed at Drengi and then towed out there by unmanned ships which took thousands of years to get there since they didn't have faster than light travel.

But once there, communication was relatively quick being "only" a dozen or so light years away.

The Drengin and Arceans didn't communicate together to make the stargates. They both came up with it on their own.

Both civilizations understood the concept of folding space.  What the humans brought to the table was the ability to generate lots of energy in a small area.  

HyperDrive IS a Stargate basically. It's just more portable. 

You assume that civilizations can automatically "make things happen" just be wanting it really really badly.  There's nothing in history to suggest that.  Breakthrus often just don't happen.

That's a pretty stupid assumption for space faring civs, since the propulsion level they have is the most basic you can get. That's what I've been saying. The game deserves a more consistent storyline (and better QA), but who cares, right?

And no, GalCiv isn't a copy of other sci-fi stories, only that it isn't unique in that technological progress can take a long time because some breakthrus require a completely different way of looking at something.

In Ender's Game (the series) humans travel at sub-light speeds for thousands and thousands of years with no changes really to it. Only at the very end, under pressure, does Ender come up with a faster than light concept.

Similarly, in Harry Turtledove's series on aliens invading the Earth, the Race (the aliens) have had space travel for hundreds of thousands of years but never got anywhere close to faster than light travel.

Sometimes, civilizatiosn conclude that some things just arne't possible.  The Drengin and Arceans assumed that the massive energy required to fold space couldn't be done by something as small as a ship (or that it could be integrated as part of the ship).  

And the humans didn't come up with folding space. They were still operating under the assumption that the speed of light as the fastest ships could travel.

Heck, there's Babylon5 where the "first ones" went MILLIONS of years without improving their propulsion techniques. They have to go through hyperspace just like the humans do.

In Stargate, the hyper-advanced Azgard are nearly brought low by the Replicators because they had never thought of guns. They only had energy weapons. Projectile weapons had never occurred to the Azgard (who also have been running around the galaxy for tens of thousands of years).

My point is that you seem to assume that people who have different opinions than you have "stupid assumptions" and what not when they're not stupid assumptions, they are simply conclusions arrived at by a different path than you may have taken.

It may be self-gratifying to point at nearly every sci-fi series and think you're more sophisticated by saying "Rodenberry, JMS, Orson Scott Card, idiots all of them! I could do it better." Because if you are so certain you can do it better, then by all means, do it. I'll happily buy your book or magazine or game.


 

on Feb 07, 2007
Wow dude, lay off..and enjoy the game. Or if it bothers you so much dont play it!?
Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. So sad.. ::shakes head::
on Feb 08, 2007
The Drengin and Arceans didn't communicate together to make the stargates. They both came up with it on their own.


Nice coincidence    Same device, at the same time, thousands of light years apart. Anyways, the storyline says "Between the two of them...", which lead me to believe that they had somehow cooperated.
You could have put the Precursors somehow "handing" the stargate specs to both races, that would be more believable, and in context.

You assume that civilizations can automatically "make things happen" just be wanting it really really badly. There's nothing in history to suggest that. Breakthrus often just don't happen.


Not really. It's you who disregards basic concepts, because you can't really explain the story you created. And history DOES have plenty of facts that suggest just that. If you don't want to acknowledge them, that's another story.

Question. Howcome the Arceans (2nd SG) and the Torians didn't see the towed stargates coming? Were they "distracted"?    Oh, they weren't looking into space, because they weren't expecting company. But wait, the Arceans already had a visit from the Drengin...


(...)
My point is that you seem to assume that people who have different opinions than you have "stupid assumptions" and what not when they're not stupid assumptions, they are simply conclusions arrived at by a different path than you may have taken.


I guess you didn't understand. Or didn't want to. The point here is not coming up with FTL, but with FUSION. That was supposedly the trigger. And it's so gd basic it hurts. Whatever way you look at it, fusion *is* basic. Bring up any sci-fi universe you want, but first make sure they don't have fusion or better power sources. Going to space without fusion *is* a stupid concept. Do you really disagree with this?

It may be self-gratifying to point at nearly every sci-fi series and think you're more sophisticated by saying "Rodenberry, JMS, Orson Scott Card, idiots all of them! I could do it better." Because if you are so certain you can do it better, then by all means, do it. I'll happily buy your book or magazine or game.


Ok, whatever. I would dare you to point out where I said any of that, but then again, maybe you're just trying to compare yourself to them... and there are plenty of people around (here too) that'll tell you that Roddenberry's work at least is far from being perfect. And I do like his work, but I also realise there's a lot of crap in it.


Wow dude, lay off..and enjoy the game. Or if it bothers you so much dont play it!?
Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. So sad.. ::shakes head::


Dude, you don't have to read it if you don't want to, just as Brad doesn't have to reply if he really doesn't want to. But I guess that concept escapes you. Sad indeed.
on Feb 09, 2007

"Question. Howcome the Arceans (2nd SG) and the Torians didn't see the towed stargates coming? Were they "distracted"?    Oh, they weren't looking into space, because they weren't expecting company. But wait, the Arceans already had a visit from the Drengin..."

This part I have to respond to because I think half the issue may be a reading comprehension issue.

The Arceans have never had a visit from the Drengin.  In the GalCiv game universe, they have seperate existences.

Like farming, clocks, and countless other inventions, the Arceans and Drengin simply, over many thousands of years independently came up with their own version of a stargate.

As for the Torians, I can assure you that if someone towed a stargate to say the distance between here and Mars, that we would not spot it. The Torians were not very advanced.

You argue that these alien races should have come up with their own Hyperdrive given that they'd been running around in space for thousands of years. You put down my examples of plenty of human inventions that seem obvious but took thousands of years (farming). Faming seems obvious in hindsight and yet it only got started relatively recently.

And when I point out that figuring out FTL drives on ships is a common Sci-Fi convention you accuse me of wanting to just compare myself with other authors and then switch it to being about fusion (and I didn't say that none of them had fusion power, I said they didn't have the same mastery of it as humans -- "full fusion power" which I admit is vague but this is an on-line post not a published book).

You are free to have the last word in this discussion, but you are increasingly sounding like Vizzini from the Princess Bride:

Westley: You're that smart?

Vizzini
: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

Westley
: Yes.

Vizzini
: Morons.

I'm satisfied that the backstory fits together. You can enjoy it for what it is or continue to put it down for what failings it may or may not have. 

If I ever sit down and try to write a book on it, I would pick and choose bits from both and put together a more cohesive story. But nitpicking what I throw together on a blog because you feel there are inconsistencies (and there are between the game story and the original fiction story) achieves nothing. The game backstory has remained the same between games. If it's in the game, it's canon. The fictional backstory is different since it doesn't fit in a strategy game.

 

on Feb 09, 2007
A Real World example of something believed to be impossible, being done, is the Tungsten Filament of our common incandescent Light Bulb. The Laws of Physics said it is Impossible to extrude tungsten into a wire so thin, because it is Too Brittle! No Scientist ever bothered to attempt it, cause they Already Knew it was Impossible. The man who did it, did NOT know it was Impossible.

Science Fiction uses the word Fiction for a Reason.
on Feb 09, 2007
This part I have to respond to because I think half the issue may be a reading comprehension issue.
The Arceans have never had a visit from the Drengin.


I don't think it is a comprehension issue as much as it is a problem of there being 2 different backstories, and you might be "forgetting" what you wrote.
The Drengin, in *one* of the backstories, launched an invasion fleet against Arcea, and the Arceans shut down the gate and anihilated the "initial" invasion fleet. It's all there, read it. I'm not making things up. How you can say "never" is beyond me. So I guess the problem is not on *my* side. I could quote said text, but I don't think it is necessary.


Like farming, clocks, and countless other inventions, the Arceans and Drengin simply, over many thousands of years independently came up with their own version of a stargate.


Which magically work with each other. And they happened to turn them on at convenient moments. And for all they knew, the stargates wouldn't even be *useful*, if there was no one else to use them with!!! Building something with so huge power requirements without knowing there were other races with a similar device is ludicrous. It's what you wrote, but it seems to me you're contradicting yourself...
Those inventions you mention, cultures had contact with each other. Clocks could only have been built seperately because those cultures used the same type of measurement for time. If they didn't, what use would a chinese clock be to an european for example, if they mesasured time in different ways?
The problem here is you keep using examples with no validity, going on tangents which have little to do with what's being discussed. It's not about comprehension.


As for the Torians, I can assure you that if someone towed a stargate to say the distance between here and Mars, that we would not spot it. The Torians were not very advanced.


WHAT?! Ahem!
The Torians are a major race... not a minor one, a major. I guess they just stole a lot of stuff.


You argue that these alien races should have come up with their own Hyperdrive given that they'd been running around in space for thousands of years. You put down my examples of plenty of human inventions that seem obvious but took thousands of years (farming). And when I point out that figuring out FTL drives on ships is a common Sci-Fi convention you accuse me of wanting to just compare myself with other authors and then switch it to being about fusion (and I didn't say that none of them had fusion power, I said they didn't have the same mastery of it as humans -- "full fusion power" which I admit is vague but this is an on-line post not a published book).


Did I "put down" any of your examples without a clear explanation? That you don't want to accept them (and I'm not imposing a personal opinion, they're pretty obvious) that's another issue.
As for the fusion power issue, that's not what the stories say. And if you read them (seems you have to even thought you wrote them yourself) you'll see just that. Again I'll spare you the quotes.
FTL drives being a *common* sci-fi convention, right, except in your story   
As for the other authors, *you* brought them up, not me. Don't pin that on me. Read what you wrote, tell me how it sounds like.


You are free to have the last word in this discussion, but


Couldn't care less about the last word. Making comparisons that *you think* are valid to try to relieve pressure is childish at best. I never brought up other authors or their work here, you're grasping.


I'm satisfied that the backstory fits together


Like I've been trying to say, there are * versions, and they are contraditory at various points. So this sentence is nothing but an easy way out.
on Feb 09, 2007
The Laws of Physics said it is Impossible to extrude tungsten into a wire so thin, because it is Too Brittle! Science Fiction uses the word Fiction for a Reason.


Tungsten is too brittle?! Aghh! It's one of the most physically robust metals there is.
And you're right, fiction says it all. But this is not just a matter of fiction, but of nonsense and contradiction. Can't use the "fiction" excuse for that   
on Feb 09, 2007
Making comparisons that *you think* are valid to try to relieve pressure is childish at best.


HA!? CHILDISH is right, but not on Draginols part. how old are you, 5?
on Feb 09, 2007
Nah, I'm 37. Does that mean we can't get along? Bummer.
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