Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
A trip inside the sausage factory of numbers
Published on March 6, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

World of Warcraft is one of my favorite games. I was in the beta from the start of it and when released, re-did my Paladin. And it was good.  I didn't really pay much attention to all the numbers. I knew that doing X was better than doing Y.  I didn't really know how much better it was, I just knew it was from the description. 

My Paladin today doesn't resemble too much my Paladin of that initial launch (let alone the beta). A lot of that is from player feedback.  Third party tools combined with players putting all the stats together resulted eliminating a lot of the "fuzzier" mechanics. Things like "Procs" got dissected and analyzed at levels I couldn't even imagine.  That's not necessarily a bad thing mind you, it just means the game has such large appeal that it's attracted both the casual gamers and the ones who want to understand the ins and out.

The first Galactic Civilizations was all fuzzy math.  Even I would have a hard time explaining with precision how morale worked or how production worked in terms of putting together a formula.   In GalCiv I, your planet quality was central to everything. Various planetary improvements, morale, and bunches of other attributes got in there to do all kinds of multiplications to the various numbers.  The order of some of these mattered since there'd be an addition here, a square root there.  The system was designed essentially that building improvement X was better for production than improvement Y.  The numbers, in essence, were all relative to one another.  Someone looking for an entertainment network to make their morale go up by 15% would be sorely disappointed.

For the sequel, I wanted to dispense with as much of that as possible. A factory would build X production units. A research center would produce Y research units. Period. How much of its capacity was used depended on how fully funded the building was.

Entering the sausage factory

Things get murky when you start dealing with civilization ability points.  One might argue that if I have a planet where my approval rating is 50% and I have a morale ability of 10% then my approval rating should be 55% (50*1.1).    And if I build an entertainment network whose job is to improve morale by 20% that my approval rating would then be 50*1.3 = 65%. 

What about production? If I have a factory that produces 10 units of production and it's all on social production and my social production ability is 20%, then my social production should be 12?  Sure.  But should the player be charged the 12 units? Or should it be 10 units with the other 2 production as bonus?  That's the way it is on research.

Speaking of which, if I have 10 units of research being produced and my research ability is 50%, shouldn't my research by 15?  No argument from me.  On the surface, that's how it should be.  And indeed, often that's how things start out.  Then you have human beings playing your game and all those good designs go out the window.  Probably the biggest reason for that in this particular game is from the mining resources. 

There are research, military, economic, influence, and morale resources.  To keep the game from being too complex to the casual user, starbase modules that mine these resoruces are the same no matter what type you are building on.  That is, A mining barracks adds say 10% to your ability regardless of whether it's a morale resource or a weapons resource.  The problem is, a 10% bonus to research is hugely different than a 10% bonus to morale which is a huge difference form a 10% bonus to weapons.  I mean, heck, if I have a ship with 8 attack, I won't even get an additional point.

And we're just getting warmed up.  Should a 10% bonus to your morale ability increase it by 10%?  Or should it add 10 points to it?  That is, if my morale ability is 10% and I mine a morale resoruce for 10%, should my morale ability be 11%? Or should it add 10% to it and make it 20%?  We add it because otherwise, any semblance of balance could go out the window (create a civ with a 80% morale ability natively and then these percent multipliers would get crazy). 

Has your head exploded yet?  Because it just keeps getting better. In order to have some semblance of balance, we mess around with the ability values in order for them not to get out of whack.

That morale ability?  fCivABilityFactor = pow(fCivABilityFactor,0.80f);

At release, Your Civ Ability at morale was just that.  But it turned out on a large galaxy you could have several morale resources cranked up to over 100 points each.  So suddenly you could have 100% taxes and 100% morale.  Oops.  So it was changed .95, then .9, then .7, then back upu to .8.  That's the sausage factory that's game development.  Where all your nice clean, elegant mechanics start to get murky.

Your research ability? It's chopped in half for the same reason.

Government waste

And what about "wasted" social production? In GalCiv I, military and social production was wasted even if you weren't building anything. 

For GalCiv II, we decided to eliminate that.  If you weren't building a ship or an improvement, you weren't charged for that production.  That makes sense.  Except, well, it turned out that players couldn't control their economy if social production was handled that way. 

What happened is that say you're playing on a really large galaxy with 100 colonies and your economy is producing 5,000 net revenue per turn.  Your planets have no improvements being built.  Then an alien offers to trade you xeno factories.  You take it.  Then suddenly your net revenue goes to -2,000 per turn.  Huh? What happened? All your planets started upgrading their factories and all that social production started to get charged for again.  Yikes! Worse, it would gradually come back down as those improvements were completed all without the player doing anything. 

Given that there's people who find the economic system in GalCiv II to be complex (what? separate tax and spend sliders?) having massively changing net revenue without user intervention would have put them over the top.  So we ended up charging for social production.  Which, is probably more realistic anyway and requires the player to put a little bit of effort into making their government more efficient.  Still, it's not ideal because it has to be rationalized.

One of the ideas we had was to have social production go towards approval rating.  But it's the same problem. Players see their approval alter by moving the spending slider and it's just another complexity.

Another idea was to have social production be added to military production on a given planet if there's nothing else to build.  This is possibly more doable.  And if there's no ship being built, it would still be spent.  But at least that way, there's some benefit.

You have the power

Just like with World of Warcraft, games, especially statistics laden games like Galactic Civilizations are designed to evolve.  We'll listen to what you have to say and together we'll keep improving the system.   But never think there's a "best" system.  There is only, at best, a system that annoys fewer people than the alternatives.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Mar 07, 2006
How about making social projects ramp up and down in terms of cost... Does this make any sense?


No, it doesn't. Your suggestion just makes the mechanics more complex. There is nothing to solve, its all quite simple. If I decide to upgrade hundreds of factories, I should expect my budget to take a hit and the need to adjust ONE slider to prevent a budget deficit. Nothing hard about it, or confusing. My social production disappearing into the aether.. er... that is very confusing, what are they doing at those factories, playing solitaire?
on Mar 08, 2006

I don't have a problem with research getting chopped in half, I have a problem with the game not telling me this. If a 50% research bonus is actually a 25% bonus then please label it a 25% bonus. Otherwise you're guaranteeing a continuous stream of confused people showing up on the forums asking about their broken research bonus.

I agree with much of this.  We have tried to go through and make things more apparent to the player. It's something we'll have to endeavor to improve on in future updates and such.

For example, my pet peeve is that I can't see which flasks, shields, and hammers are from my ability and which are from my factories. I want them to be color-coded.

on Mar 08, 2006

No, it doesn't. Your suggestion just makes the mechanics more complex. There is nothing to solve, its all quite simple. If I decide to upgrade hundreds of factories, I should expect my budget to take a hit and the need to adjust ONE slider to prevent a budget deficit. Nothing hard about it, or confusing. My social production disappearing into the aether.. er... that is very confusing, what are they doing at those factories, playing solitaire

One might argue that the social spending "wastage" is realistic.

For instance, here at work we have to pay people's salaries whether they're on a project or not.

Social spending is essentially paying the salaries of the people who build things on the planet. A good manager will make sure they take a detour on their tech reearch to keep those guys busy all the time.

on Mar 08, 2006
Who cares if wastage is realistic? Realistic does not mean fun. In this case it's counterintuitive and distinctly unfun. A number of decent alternatives have been suggested. Having your gun jam in the middle of a firefight is realstic, but do you want it happening when you're playing Doom?
on Mar 08, 2006
Augusten, if it's done purely as a budget consideration, why not just pay the entire cost upfront? That way, no sliders are affected at all - either you have the cash or you don't. Just to be clear, this is not the same as "buy it now" - the time it takes is still as usual.

If we're talking "realistic", then money should always be budgeted before a project even breaks ground. Well, "should" being the operative word.

Frogboy, I think it's better that a "maintenance" cost be paid whether there are social projects queued or not - based on number of factories. Wasted money could also be simulated in other ways, like by adding a degree of variability on final cost of the project and actual time to build it.

I mean how many times have you seen a government project that was actually on time and within budget?!?

As it stands now, I'll have to micro-manage the sliders more to make sure I don't waste a dime. I dunno if this was really the intended effect....
on Mar 08, 2006
Forgboy said:
One might argue that the social spending "wastage" is realistic.

For instance, here at work we have to pay people's salaries whether they're on a project or not.

Social spending is essentially paying the salaries of the people who build things on the planet. A good manager will make sure they take a detour on their tech reearch to keep those guys busy all the time.


You can set the social slider to zero whenever you want, and suddenly those people start doing useful work. In the current system, you have to do this via micromanagement (New building tech: social slider -> max; finished upgrade: social slider -> 0). If "social spending" ceased automatically when construction was done, you would achieve the same result without micromanagement.

Therefore... assuming avoiding micromanagement is a good thing, and considering that the only difference is the amount of micromanagement... having "social spending waste" as a feature is a universally, inarguably, proven bad design decision. No offense. But there is only one truth in math, and this is it.
on Mar 08, 2006
Really, I think both sides have reasonable arguments. Personally, I would like to have social production be free when nothing is being built, and I think the upgrade-improvement dialog box would solve it well. That said, it should be made an option like so many other things so that either you deal with the difficulty of wildly swinging income or with the annoyance of wasted cash, and the AI has to do the same. The arguments for making the GalCivII economy essentially a copy of CivIVs are misguided, I feel, as simply because CivIV has a good enonomic model doesn't mean we want to play it in every game. Different economic models add to the enjoyment. Also, it could be that the model was designed to be as the way it is partially to make it work well with the AI. Perhaps it is easier for the computer to play well using this economic model than one of a different style. I doubt that this AI argument is valid for the social spending, however, as the reason for the decision is apparently an attempt to prevent player confusion. As such it is hopefully easy to give the option of a not wasting social spending without hampering AI play. Regardless, I really enjoy the game, and with the amount of noise being made for changing the way social spending works I am hopeful some optional change, hopefully the dialog box or something similar, will be implemented.
on Mar 08, 2006
it is hopefully easy to give the option of a not wasting social spending


Oh yeah, I can just see a checkbox on the preference screen: "Waste unused spending"

Frogboy, you do still have to pay salaries, but you don't have to pay anything else. When you're building software you're paying for the people to write it and not much else, but when you're building spaceships and high-tech industrial facilities a lot of your cost is material that you don't have to buy if you're not going to use it.
on Mar 08, 2006

Who cares if wastage is realistic? Realistic does not mean fun. In this case it's counterintuitive and distinctly unfun. A number of decent alternatives have been suggested. Having your gun jam in the middle of a firefight is realstic, but do you want it happening when you're playing Doom?

I haven't heard any alternatives that wouldn't  create a worse issue or require a drastically different economic system which isn't going to happen in a 1.x, that's more of a sequel thing.

Any changes to the system would have to fall under these guidelines:

1) No dramatic shifts in net revenue that aren't user controlled.  That's why we have the social spending as-is. To prevent a scenaroi where smeone ends up going from +3000 per turn to -2000 per turn because they traded some tech with an AI.

2) No increase in micro management.

3) Does not involve totally redoing the economic system.

We obviously like the economic system. But we're open to ideas.  Someone saying "it's broken" isn't persuasive. It's not broken. Opinions are not facts.

on Mar 08, 2006

Therefore... assuming avoiding micromanagement is a good thing, and considering that the only difference is the amount of micromanagement... having "social spending waste" as a feature is a universally, inarguably, proven bad design decision. No offense. But there is only one truth in math, and this is it.

Case in point.  Your opinion is not fact.  Given that it was the other way first and we decided it was extremely confusing to non-hard core players that it was not a "proven" bad design decision.

Simply put: Massive economic changes that do not seemingly have a connection to player input is worse than social wastage in our opinion.  We can all agree to disagree but at the end of the day, I'm writing the code.

I'm open to suggestions on this stuff.  I could be talked into all kinds of things including diverting social spending military spending automatically (for example).

on Mar 08, 2006
(armchair designers = free input for devs) - plus some of us actually did a bit of real-life game design.

I understand the concept of "maintenance" or "waste". But since we are talking financial terms here, it's perhaps best to stick with the terminology fully and split expenses into:
- fixed costs = you have to pay these, whether you are producing something or not -> real-life: salaries, machine maintenance, loans, R&D etc etc.
- flexible costs = you only pay these when you produce something and they depend on how MUCH you produce -> real life: purchasing costs, overtime, sales commissions etc.)

So if you call them like that, noone will have objections and you get to keep the economic model intact.
on Mar 08, 2006
If I understand this correctly, and please correct me if I am wrong, when you have your social production slider on say 25% and a planet is not producing a building, then the money or hammers are lost and not used for anything except paying those lazy workers on this particular planet?

on Mar 08, 2006
One might argue that the social spending "wastage" is realistic.
For instance, here at work we have to pay people's salaries whether they're on a project or not.
Social spending is essentially paying the salaries of the people who build things on the planet. A good manager will make sure they take a detour on their tech reearch to keep those guys busy all the time.


Great for Stardock employees, but most business entities hire contractors for cyclical work and/or lay off employees no longer working on a projects. So if you are saying we must run our empire in the benevelent fashion you run Stardock... ok... but that takes control out of the players hand and forces us to play your way.
on Mar 08, 2006
(double post)
on Mar 08, 2006
I haven't heard any alternatives that wouldn't create a worse issue or require a drastically different economic system which isn't going to happen in a 1.x, that's more of a sequel thing.

Any changes to the system would have to fall under these guidelines:

1) No dramatic shifts in net revenue that aren't user controlled. That's why we have the social spending as-is. To prevent a scenaroi where smeone ends up going from +3000 per turn to -2000 per turn because they traded some tech with an AI.

2) No increase in micro management.

3) Does not involve totally redoing the economic system.


Simple. Two new game options:

1) Auto upgrade improvements as they become available (civ wide): ON by default

2) Redirect unused spending to other catagories: OFF by default

Problem solved. Players who don't mess with the settings play the game the way you apparently want them to. Those of us who enjoy more control over our empire's economy, get it.
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