GalCiv II: Size Matters

Part 1

Published on March 22, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

When it comes to battles, size matters. To balance that, Galactic Civilizations II introduces the logistics concept.

The logistics concept was designed to prevent the age-old strategy game issue where each side just builds a single mongo fleet/army/whatever and wipes out everything in its path. The number of ships you can put into a fleet is hence limited by your logistics ability which you can research to improve. How many logistics a ship uses is based on hull size.

In Galactic Civilizations II v1.0 that was:

Tiny: 2 points of logistics
Small: 3
Medium: 4
Cargo: 5
Large: 5
Huge: 6

It was done this way to keep it simple for players. But here's the problem -- ship sizes. A tiny hulled ship has 16 space. A large hull has 55 space. That's over 3X as much space but the large only uses up 2.5X in logistics. Advantage: Large hulled ships. There are other factors involved too such as hit points and cost -- which are well balanced. But logistics are out of whack in our view.

So in v1.1, it's going to be this:

Tiny: 2
Small: 3
Medium: 4
Cargo: 4
Large: 7
Huge: 9

The various logistics techs will be pumped up too. The fact is, we want people to be able to build swarms of ships as a viable strategy. We also want people to be able to fixate on building huge capital ships as well. Now, the current system isn't horribly imbalanced by any means, the guy researching the larger hulls isn't able to put in time researching some mongo weapons.

If you go strictly by a spreadsheet, you can see plenty of imbalances depending on how you want to look at it and how nit-picky you want to be.

But I want to stress - the guy who's building huge ships had to go and research (or trade some equally valuable) technology to those huge hulls. They also had to put together the manufacturing capacity to create them and make the sacrifice of putting their marbles into a single ship rather than a bunch. In addition, there are various "round off" things that they have to deal with as well and many components, particularly defenses, take size into account when determining how much size they use.

Update:

After play testing during the evening and taking more into account things like starbase bonuses and the cost of getting those large hulled ships I made a minor tweak:

Tiny: 2
Small: 3
Medium: 4
Cargo: 5
Large: 6
Huge: 8

The Cargo hulls didn't need to come down because the new logistics abilities increase your logistics quite a bit. Before you would have 12 logistics after researching enhanced logistics. Now you'd have 15. You could hence fit 3 transports into a fleet at that stage versus 2 previously.

Comments (Page 2)

motai

on Mar 22, 2006

I do want to mention an overlooked fact of large vs small ships. Rate of fire is 1 per ship no matter howpowerful the shots. a single ship can never overcome a swarm all other things being equal. building another disadvantage into large ships just leads to single planets and large ships being impossible to defend. if seperate weapons systems picked multiple targets it would rebalance a few things on this issue such as never getting out from a battle unscathed just becuase you shoot first. it also would make large ships a viable alternative which they have not been from my limited experience.

4 ships
3 atk 0 def- 16 hp

vs
1 ship
12 atk 0 def- 55 hp?

only balance factor is that 1 the large ship would probably at that point have about 17 atk and be able to fit in some defense to prevent the swarm from being a perfect solution. but as pointed out the military startbases adding +2 to each ship or more make it very unfavorable for the large vessel.

16-16-16-16 vs 55
4-16-16-16 vs 43
0-16-16-16 vs 31
0-4-16-16 vs 22
0-0-16-16 vs 13
0-0-4-16 vs 7
0-0-0-16 vs 1
0-0-0-16 vs 0
or
16-16-16-16 vs 55
4-16-16-16 vs 43
0-16-16-16 vs 34
0-4-16-16 vs 25
0-0-16-16 vs 19
0-0-4-16 vs 13
0-0-0-16 vs 10
0-0-0-4 vs 7
0-0-0-0 vs 7

these result not accurate but illustrate the potential for a large ship to shift a battle alone. but the cost involved then shows that the smaller ships will have 2x the fleets and the individual battle would means less being that balanced and large ships are a losing proposition.

perhaps it might be an option to configure the feel of the game in the future for the scale of logisitics to ship size?

Kalin

on Mar 22, 2006

Military bases are a perfectly logical argument, imagine this:

x --- x
| -o- |
x --- x

... where each X is a military star base (it should be a square if the ASCII art fails miserably) and the "-o-" as your planet in the center. This is a perfectly possible set up with 3 spaces in between each base. In this set up, a ship can gain 16 defenses in each category with very basic military research. Now, park a ship with 1, yes ONE defense (in any category) and one offence on top of each base for defense and one on the planet. Let's see how many fleet dies attacking this set up. The cost for this invulnerable setup? 4 starbases, 5 small ships. By the time the AI has anything that could REMOTELY destroy your guards, your ship would have upwards 100+ HP due to leveling. No fleet needed, just pure military starbase mayhem. If you really want, add a few more ships into the fleets on guard and on the planet. The cost for these ships? about 2 maintenance (100 pp), and it'll slaughter anything and everything. Military bases are very powerful, you just have to know how to use them. The downside? Well... it's very boring. I've never scene any AI break this setup, I could have the weakess military in the world and I couldn't care less (all I need is 1 defense and 1 offense). Now, obviously this is an extreme case, but surely you can see that military bases is extremely powerful (If you think that is bad, there is also a 7 way military base set up for a whooping 28 defense in each category, and if your planet is at the border of a sector, then all hell break loose).

However, to argue that small ships is more powerful than big ships on this point alone would be a mistake. If *I* was up against this setup, I certainly wouldn't send in my tiny ships just so I can level theirs. No, a thousand small ships against this wouldn't be enough. Unless you're at the end of the missile tech tree with your 25 damage blackhole eruptor, you have no choice but to use very big ships filled with weapons if you have ANY hope to wear this defense down (assuming using my own millitary base isn't an option, and very possible with careful planning).

Secondly, the only thing WORSE than a millitary base defense like this, is a military base defense like this that uses HUGE ships. Ready for this one? Build your huge ships, add one laser, and one titanium armor. That's it, you're done, it's over. With military bases, huge ships can be just as powerful, and you know what? they don't cost that much more either (a whopping 115 BC more, aka ~2 maintainance more than a TINY ship). But you get 42(!!!) more HP, that's 8 times a tiny ship. This huge levels like no tommorow, I have a level 72 huge that has 560+ HP in one of my old save games somewhere (yes, it's nearly empty, a laser, and titanium armor).

Military bases are very powerful, definite yes. Does that make tiny ships more powerful? no. I don't think I ever want to face these military base setup with huge defenders. The difference is HP. With some luck, tiny ships can be taken out if they roll a bad defense. A huge ship will just sit there laughing at you while they lay down the smack. The only way to beat this is to get top of the line weapons, psy beams, or blackhole gun/eruptor or doom ray. Then start praying you get a good offensive roll before they kill you. (Extra kudos to stardock for not making this game multi-player, facing this would really suck, and you know everyone will do it on their homeworld just to piss the other guy off.

)

To me, large ships have a very huge advantage because of it's HP, not because of it's hull size. So I personally don't see anything wrong with changing how much logistics they take up especially since you guys are also upgrading logistics technologies. Basically, all it does is makes logistic technologies all the more valuable. It's fine because 9 tiny ship or 6 small is still nowhere equal to 2 huge, IMO, so I'll still research it like always. Although I do think it's a little odd that the jump from medium ships to large ship is 3 logistic points. It made sense when medium was up to 5, but now it sorta looks wierd. It's like saying either make medium ships or make huge ships, tiny, small and large are useless.

Featauril

on Mar 22, 2006

I don't really agree with bringing the logistics of cargos from 5 to 4. It means that I'll be able to have three transports in a fleet too soon, and that will tip the balance to me against the AI.

aeternali

on Mar 22, 2006

I guess if we don't like the change we could just change the Logistics for the hull types in the GC2Types.xml. does anyone know if this works?

thanks,

Alfonse

on Mar 23, 2006

I agree with Kalin's point on Hp.

Indeed, if there's anything wrong with combat, it's the increase of Hp that experienced ships get.

I have a small hull design that doesn't work if you build them from scratch. It's a ship with all weapons and minor (if any) defense. It works if you have 25+Hp, which is actually quite possible, because it can just take the damage, but it has so much firepower that it murders them before he can die. Even through semi-optimized defenses.

If your ships have enough Hp, you can overcome any defense and any offense. And if the enemy has been fighting you with beam weapons against your shields for some time, then switches to something else, it's too late because your ships have too many Hp for any attack to be effective. Their ships are fresh and you're flying small hulls around that have more Hp than a fresh Large hull.

Kalin

on Mar 23, 2006

guess if we don't like the change we could just change the Logistics for the hull types in the GC2Types.xml. does anyone know if this works?

thanks,

Yes, it does work, I've tried it. It is VERY easy to mod logistics, now if only brad will say how he will change logistic technologies I can test of this out right now, lol. Just make sure you mod the logistic for all the hull types

;; I've even modded the base hull speeds in an attempt to boost the AI's ship a bit. I have to say, they are doing somewhat better. Changing existing ships, adding new ones, massive types... all currently possible. The only thing that isn't possible is to add modules that increases HP, or items that has multiple purposes (hopefully they will add these in sometime in the future). I'm just waiting for the mod folder to work so I don't have to remod everytime they release an update.

Enigmatical

on Mar 23, 2006

Wow!

People saying they do/dont want it because it will PERSONALLY benefit them

Lets make the game more balanced and better for EVERYONE, instead of just thinking about what it means to our own strategies... we are all human, we can adapt. Ultimately it means a better "fun" factor all around.

aeternali

on Mar 23, 2006

I think you missed the point. This affects only those whose playstyle is to use big ships against the AI. We will have fewer ships in our fleets and as a result it will increase our workload without any increase in fun.

This change will reduce the number of large ships in a fleet by half.

I normally mix a large or huge ship with mediums. After this change the system will favor smaller ships.

This change does not bring balance as what is there to balance against except an AI. Your play style does not affect me at all as this is not a multiplayer game at all.

What has happened here is my technological achievements in hull size can now be almost negated with smaller ships. Before you paid a price for falling behind in hull size and now you do not.

This change makes no sense from a realistic or historical sense anyway. I mean really how many battles have commanders sent a bunch of frigates after battleships?

Bottom line is this... This change is not needed, swings the entire balance in favor of a playstyle by those who build large numbers of small ships and it was fine the way it was.

aeternali

on Mar 23, 2006

Don't ship components also get slightly bigger for the larger ships, not so much as to cancel out the extra space but is it really 3X bigger as far as fitting components is concerned.....or have I forgotten something?

Yes, so a bigger hull was already balanced by the fact that a Laser V would take up more space on the larger hull.

aeternali

on Mar 23, 2006

guess if we don't like the change we could just change the Logistics for the hull types in the GC2Types.xml. does anyone know if this works?

Yes, that is the solution for me then. I will simply download the patch and change all of the logistics settings of all of the corresponding hulls back to the original scale.

Also, i would like to point out that any changes we make in logistics are somewhat in balance because the AI can do the same thing we do fleet wise.

I guess we have Stardock to thank to allow us to mod the game to this extent.

trancejeremy

on Mar 23, 2006

I think if you do this, then you should make larger hull sizes easier to research. Because if there is no real advantage in bigger hull sizes anymore, then why should the player have to research them?

I mean, for weapons and defense, ones that take more research are dramatically better than the earlier ones. A harppon is better than a stinger, and a photonic torpedo is better than both.

If you want to have a point in using smaller hull sizes, then why not a point in using earlier weapon technology?

IMHO, if you want to make smaller hulls more viable, then you should give additional options for them via research. For instance "Small Hulls 2" which gives smaller ships a defense and speed bonus. And so on.

Frogboy

on Mar 23, 2006

Couple of notes. After play testing it tonight I changed it to be:

2,3,4,6,8.

Also: you forgot the part that the logistics techs are going to go up significantly.

You will still be to have large ships in your fleet. You'll simply be able to fit more smaller ships in your fleets as well.

So in effect, Rather than having 12 logistics points after getting enhanced logistics you'll have 15.

Before: 2 large ships + 1 tiny = 12.

After: 2 large ships + 1 small = 15 No change.

Ex 2:

Before: 6 tiny ships.

After: 7 tiny ships.

Ex 3"

Before: 2 huge ships

After: 1 huge ship, 1 large ship.

Battle example:

Before: 2 huge ships vs. 6 tiny fighters. Don't even try to tell me that's fair. Those two huge ships would wipe out those tinies in an instance. It's absurd.

After: 1 huge ship, 1 large ship vs. 7 tiny. It's still going to be tough for the tiny ships.

Frogboy

on Mar 23, 2006

This change makes no sense from a realistic or historical sense anyway. I mean really how many battles have commanders sent a bunch of frigates after battleships?

What history are you referring to?

One of the most famous naval engagements in history was the battle of the Bismark vs. the Royal Navy in World War II.

Historically, a small group of capital ships has lost over and over against a group of smaller ships or fighters. It's just about numbers.

But history has been pretty clear about capital ships vs. swarms of fighters. Swarms of fighters win.

Previously, it had become very clear that in GalCiv II it was just about moving up the ladder to get those huge hulled ships first. There was no room for the person who wanted to explore up the logistics tree because it was ultimately futile.

Huge hulls having OVER twice as much space per unit of logistics is not balanced, even if you take into account the cost. Large hulls and such are simply not expensive enough to research to justify that kind of diffrence.

We're not talking about a particularly dramatic change.

Kalin

on Mar 23, 2006

I completely agree... huge ships are overpowered, and probably will always be. Not only did it had a lot more space per logistic, it had 8 times the HP of a tiny. This is by far the most important factor. I don't see how people could be complaining that their huge ship won't be as powerful as small.

While I was playing around earlier with your logistic values, I also tripled the cost for all of the hulls, that really eliminated a lot of cheap strategies like huge raiders full of engines. Engines are very cheap, so a huge ship with engines with the same weapon/defenses as a medium doesn't cost much more but would have triple the HP and a lot faster. It now costs quite a bit more for the same set up, so it isn't an instant, "duh!" decision.

Oddly enough, by doing this to the cargo ships too, I've found that the early planet grab rush is a lot more enjoyable because colonyship cost goes up (so you can't buy a ton of them right off)... wierd right? Not only that, the starbase clutter problem was a lot less because constructors are now more expensive too... wow. Any chance you can take a look down this path? I don't have a problem with the logistic change at all, but I think this might be a much better alternate. If not, I'm already planning the mod "expensive ships"...

BTW: Isn't it 1AM where you are at the last post? Jeez, talk about being a little too dedicated to your job...

Then again, I guess I would be too, messing around with your game, without pay, at 3 AM myself... lol. Good job, I blame you for my lack of sleep!

pdesrivieres@yahoo.com

on Mar 23, 2006

Huge hulls having OVER twice as much space per unit of logistics is not balanced, even if you take into account the cost.

But you are forgetting that the size of the ship components increases with the hull size. So huge hulls have LESS than twice as many components per unit of logistics compared to tiny hulls.

Also when a huge capital ship engages a large fleet of light fighters, it may only target 1 fighter at a time. So no matter how much fire power it has it can only take out 1 fighter per round of fire. None of the fire power of the fleet of fighters is wasted attacking the capital ship. In real navy battles, capital ships can target multiple attacking fighters at the same time.

Finally, it has already been mentioned that a military starbase's bonuses favor fleets of many light fighters over fleets with a few capital ships.

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