Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
A tale of two continents
Published on April 2, 2004 By Draginol In Current Events

For reasons I can't quite understand, some people argue that we should take into account what Europeans think of Bush and Kerry. Why?

I think the reason is cultural lag. A seeming obsession to worry about what the "mother country" thinks of what we're doing. What's worse is that many Europeans seem to think that their opinions should matter to us. The whole thing is very selective too. It's not based on merit. It's not based on population. It's not based on economics. It's particular to Europe.

Let me give you an example: How often in these debates over Iraq have we heard about how France thinks about what we should do? Now, compare that to Japan. Japan has a larger population, a much higher GDP, and produces a lot more products and services that people use on a day to day basis. Yet France gets an incredible amount of attention. The US had Japan's support for its actions in Iraq. Japan has even sent troops there. But you rarely hear about that.

It's cultural lag. Many Europeans are unaware that individual European nations are not a major concern to most Americans. They don't go and pick presidential candidates based on what Belgium thinks any more than we're going to poll what Argentina thinks. But because Europeans believe their opinons should matter more to us than other nations, they chaffe at when someone like me points out that Americans don't care. Nor should they care. National governments are suppoed to do what is best for their own citizens. Not what's best for some minor nation state across the ocean.

It's not arrogance.  It's common sense. I wouldn't expect that someone in Belgium care what someone in Pakistan thinks of their leaders when voting. Despite the fact that Pakistan has a vastly higher population. Citizens in Belgium should only care what their leaders will do for them.  Same in France. 

BTW, do you think the French worry what we think of Chirac? Poll Americans and those who even know who he is are liekly to have a generally unfavorable opinion. But you rarely hear about Europeans worrying what Americans think. Many Europeans seem to demand that we listen to what they think of our leaders and take it to heart. But they seem to show no concern about what we think about their leaders. It's a one-way street.

We don't expect Europeans to care what we think when they vote for their leaders. Which is good because they've made it clear they don't care. Despite that, some Europeans expect us to care what they think of our leaders. And when someone points that we don't care, it's us that are called arrogant. Amazing.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Apr 02, 2004
Island dog:

Can't speak for all Europeans. Europe is very heterogeneous. All assumptions involving Europeans as a group have to be very sweeping and general and most likely incorrect.

That said, I think it is safe to say that 99% of all Europeans never heard of John Kerry before this election. IMO it is simply a matter of Bush having a bad reputation while Kerry has none.

I also think that we Europeans generally feel more comfortable with left-wing american poiliticians. Even though, the left-wing politicians in the US are probably far more to the right than most right-wing politicians in Europe.
on Apr 02, 2004
I was just making the point that someone pointed out that Europeans think Bush lied about WMD. I was just wondering if they think John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Madeline Albright, and all the other democrats who have said Iraq had WMD's are lying also.
on Apr 02, 2004
It's true that since the decisions of the United States do affect all other countries, that we probably should listen to what they have to say. The problem though is that Europeans think that only their opinions matter, and only when their opinions are against us (i.e. notice how Europeans have no problem lumping themselves together when they're criticizing the US even if just as many European countries support the US but when one criticizes a European country they're suddenly all different and shouldn't be lumped together). Considering how much we provide for other countries, perhaps they're the ones that should be listening to what we have to say.
on Apr 02, 2004
Thanks for finding some for me I hope you understand I was genuinely curious.
on Apr 02, 2004
US citizen shouldn't care about european opinion, they should elect who they hink is the best. On another and, US election have influence on the whole world, and every country has interest with one side or the other.

Like Jelvis said,any left wing president would be considered as relatively right wing...

What strike me with the current administration is hat there will be party all over the world if Bsh lose. Not because Kerry win..Funnily,there are a lot of powerfull people that take side from all over the world. November 2004 looks like battle for middle earth.

on Apr 03, 2004
I have to say the article hits dead on....frankly I know I'm not the only American who is getting rather tired of all the somewhat elitist mentality opinions coming out of Europe these days...as to why they dont like Bush...could it be that whether you agree with him or not...like him or not...he is gonna do what's in the best intrest of the US...not Europe...although the two generally are one in the same...but as of late...it seems the most idiotic rhetoric out of Europe comes from the western nations...the same ones who benefited from the same "evil" US's billions in aid, military support..i..e. deployment of US forces as a counter balance for the former Warsaw pact forces...and 50 years of living under the threat of nuclear destruction hust so the western nations could be free...they have forgoten the price paid for their freedom...whereas the eastern euro's have not ..seeing as their first day of freedom is still very fresh in their minds..

Probably the biggest indicator of this elitist mentality is the fact that a while back there was a story in several euro papers that stated the fact that some in Europe believe that should have a right to vote in US presidential elections citing the fact that since the US is the world's only superpower and biggest leader...they should have their say....I could almost see Chirac or Shroeder running for the presidency...

Lets not forget that when the US was trying to form a coalition for Iraq....and gather the required military numbers...France(not shocked there) and Germany played the asshole card...that caused the US to begin looking at our forces based in Europe and other places to fill in...but it seems our Nato allies nearly had a shit fit....regardless of the fact that article 5 of the Nato charter was envoked...membership in Nato must be a one way street in western Europe...go figure...

In the end the Euro's are missing the growing resurgence of isolationism here....just like prior to ww2...those favoring it are still a very small minority..but is growing ...lord knows one could combine all nato members militaries together and still be under the US military force levels...Europe need the US a hell of alot more that the other way round...
on Apr 03, 2004
Not really; not as far as the candidates are concerned. However when an American President comes up with such phrases as [WORLD ORDER] [GLOBAL ECONOMY] it worries some countries. They feel they have a right to express an opinion,and they do. we might do well to listen,and maybe even consider what they have to say.Ultimately we'll make our own decission anyway.....charlie poore
on Apr 04, 2004
I trust Brad will read Psych's and Lee's commentary because they point out that what we do affects the globe. Brad's attitude is tantamount to saying who cares what they think in Montana or Utah, they're so sparsely populated?
on Apr 04, 2004
I think Brad's attitude is more along the lines of: "Western Europe isn't the center of the world as they'd have you believe."
on Apr 05, 2004
If America wants to be part of world politics then it needs to accept that the world will indeed have comments about it's politics. It should also care about these comment, as they give America valuable information about what others think of it's policies and the policies canditates stand for. Whether they affect your judgement however is only up to you though.

Considering the amount of articles from Americans on this site about Spain recently it's a bit funny seeing a comment of

We don't expect Europeans to care what we think when they vote for their leaders

Lots of American's did care and were quite upset with Spain. So yes Americans do care about European leaders. Likewise most europeans care enough to at least listen when americans comment on their leaders.

As for your comments on Chirac. Bad choice. Chirac cared enough and showed enough respect for American opinion to go to the states and appear on US television to help explain to Americans why he opposed war in Iraq. That's some level of respect he showed you! You just don't get it though. He cared what you though. He listened. he respected.

How about you show some in return. How about listening and caring about what others have to say. Then make up your own mind about whether to let their feelnigs influence your vote.

Paul.

on Apr 05, 2004

I think Americans accept that Europeans and everyone else has an opinion. The rest of the world also needs to accept that Americans will treat such comments with the importance they are due - very little.

Chirac only came to the United States because US tourism to France tanked. The difference between Americans and French, it seems, is that Americans care enough about these issues to make purchasing choices after it. France has felt the crunch.

on Apr 11, 2004
Reply To: Alex Becherer Post on Friday, April 02, 2004 wherein he said:
on Apr 11, 2004
Alex Becherer (4/2/04) said:
on Apr 11, 2004
Alex Becherer said on April 2nd, first of all: no, generally Americans should not care what Europeans think of your candidates for the presidency of your country..."but believe it or not, you need support from European (and a few other) countries on that war on terror you are on currently."
on Apr 11, 2004
A post on April 2nd- "no, generally Americans should not care what Europeans think of your candidates for the presidency of your country..."but believe it or not, you need support from European (and a few other) countries on that war on terror you are on currently."
If you truly believes in something, you forge ahead. As you move forward it is only wise to rally support. But if (a)the support doesn't come, or ( if a type of support is pledged that only serves to undermine your purpose - then you hope you are strong enough to say "Now that I know where you stand, I'm better off without you" to both groups.America is strong enough.
In fact, to give in to the European mindset would weaken the strength of the U.S. of A. Lets not kid ourselves. Underpinning much of the USA vs EU around this issue is the strength of the Euro vs US Dollar. EU is saying to the US, it is high time we get what you have had regarding the economic foundations of the world. The US attitude is that we are not just going to say to you or anyone else, "You know, we have been powerful for too long - here who wants some of our strength, we don't need it any more."

That is just the way it is - in all of its unsavory aspects.
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