Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Mortimer Zuckerman's fractured view of economics
Published on October 30, 2006 By Brad Wardell In US Domestic

In the classic book, Atlas Shrugged, the government begins a program in which wealth is distributed based on need rather than merit. This requires that wealth is confiscated by those who are producing it to be handed to those who aren't.  The more productive a citizen you are, the less of what you produce you get to keep. The less productive you are, the more you receive. Eventually, the producers of America go on strike and the country collapses.

The points made in the book are stunning for their obviousness -- government doesn't make wealth, people do.

In the October US News and World Report, Editor-In-Chief Mortimer Zuckerman has an editorial entitled "A fairer America" with the point "The income gap between the richest and poorest Americans is wider than at any time in history and we must take urgent measures to begin closing it."

Who's 'we'?

What Zuckerman fails to realize is that the only way to close the gap is to make everyone poorer. If you want a society in which everyone is equal, it will be a society in which everyone lives in misery. The question, therefore is, how much poorer do you want everyone to live in order to satisfy some arbitrary statistical result?

The people who produce the items that enrich our lives -- homes that are very inexpensive per square foot despite having a wealth of features we take for granted, personal computers, cell phones, automobiles, televisions, Internet services, you name it, can be classified as the top 5% or so of the economic population.

When those top 5% are targeted by the government, they adapt and everyone else faces the consequences. These consequences, are amazingly ignored by Zuckerman who behaves as if some of today's realities (outsourcing, automation, downsizing) were somehow inevitable.  But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Zuckerman writes that in the late 1800s there was a huge gulf between the rich and the poor. And yet somehow, most Americans were far better off than their parents were. (By magic one presumes).

"Capitalism played a big role, but government did too, with the passage of the Homestead Act of 1862 giving 160 acres to settlers who would live on the land for at least five years.."

The government was very generous with other people's lands weren't they? I am not condemning the Homestead act, but I would not be quick to praise the confiscation of millions of acres of lands from one people to hand to another.  Nor would I be quick to claim that "giving" 160 acres unearned helped the economy anywhere near what free market did. 

Perhaps Zuckerman should take a look at a map of the United States and look at the areas that were covered by the Homestead act.  Was providing 160 acres, unearned, to settlers the cause of the economic boom of the late 1800s?  Was Colorado, Wyoming, Montana (for example) the center of the industrial revolution?  372,000 farms were created but is anyone going to argue that this is what made the average American better off than his parents?

Zuckerman, who as a reminder, is promoting the concept of closing the income gap, notes that the 1970s were known as "the great compression" where the income gap between rich and poor shrank sharply.  Does anyone want to go back to the 1970s?

In the early 80s, Ronald Reagan was able to get through massive tax cuts and massive deregulation of industry.  Most adults alive today know the results -- a great increase in the real world standard of living.  But laments Zuckerman, the gap between rich and poor increased.

Let's be clear: The gap between rich and poor is a measurement of how regulated an economy is. Period.

It is not about "fairness".  If you have two runners in a marathon, the gap between them will grow over time as one runs faster. The only way to shrink that gap is to force the faster running to run more slowly.

But since the 1980s, the government has increasingly meddled, especially in the area of corporate taxes. If my company makes $100,000 profit, almost 40% of that profit will go to the federal government. Moreover, the federal government has opened US companies up to "free trade" by enabling foreign competition in (which is good) but forced companies to continue to have to face mounds of regulation and taxes compared to those companies (that is bad).

But what does Zuckerman conclude of the obvious result:

"Today, however, the wealth escalator doesn't work. In fact, while many families thought they were going up, they have actually been going down. In sectors of the economy where jobs could be mechanized or automated, tens of thousands now have no work. At the same time, most of the income gains we have reaped from productivity went to just the top 1% of Americans..."

Well DUH. 

First off, families thought they were going "up" because they were. They don't pay attention to CPIs. They pay attention to how they are living -- bigger houses with air condition, nicer cars, computers, better food at lower prices, etc. Clothes that don't look and feel like a now-illegal method of interrogation.

Secondly, the guys at the top 1%, let's call them what they are -- business owners -- faced with foreign competition thanks to "free trade" but still faced with a myriad of government imposed costs in hiring human beings (there is no payroll tax on machines) did the only sane thing -- they replaced low skilled labor with machines. And who's fault is that?

The problem with people like Zuckerman is that they think that the government has something to do with the production of wealth. It doesn't. It merely sets the rules. And business follow those rules (in general).

Business owners are motivated by profit. Profit is not the same as greed (greed is a term used by class warriors to smear the productive class).  Profit to them is merely the measure of how effective they are.

So if you make it more profitable for business owners to either replace human beings with machines / hire the same work force that the foreign competitors are using instead of hiring Americans because you've made it impractical to do so, that is what they'll do.

Zuckerman, whose article reads almost as a parody of one of the sad sacks in Atlas Shrugged makes some startlingly illogical conclusions:

"Even college graduates, who have long enjoyed a big edge in wage and benefits, are feeling the pinch because of soaring costs of tuition..."

And why are college tuitions "soaring"? Most universities are publicly funded. Name a single privately produced product that has not changed in quality or quantity and is not in short supply whose costs have "soared"?  Only a government run system could function in an environment in which it charges more while producing inferior results.

But Zuckerman's prescription? (and I'm not kidding, it's in the same article):

  1. MORE support for education at all levels
  2. A major effort to brake soaring healthcare costs
  3. A NEW minimum wage

I'm serious. After making a fantastic case (unintentionally) for getting the government out of education and for decreasing its interference in the private workplace he recommends the opposite.

And why are healthcare costs going up? There's a lot of reasons. $10 co-pay? What the hell were they thinking? How about 10% co-pay. There's no incentive right now for competition based on price in the healthcare market and we're paying -- literally -- the price. 

And we Americans demand ever more sophisticated medical technology. You want cheap healthcare? Then let's go back to 100 years ago when Asprin was the treatment. That was cheap. Or maybe just 30 years ago where you had antibiotics but if you got anything serious (heart disease, cancer, or any chronic illness) the prescription was for you to die. That was pretty cheap too. 

Here's a clue to Zuckerman: More stuff costs MORE than less stuff. Especially if there's no incentive ($10 co-pays) for that top 1% to produce drugs based on price as opposed to effect.

If any American reading this thinks they are worse off today than they were 30 years ago, I can only wish they could find a time machine to go back to 1976. Land of lead smelling air, obscenely expensive air travel (before adjusting for inflation even), no cell phones, no computers, no DVD players, 8-track, no air conditioning if you lived in the North, no Internet and if you got cancer or had heart problems, or any other serious medical condition, you died.  Yea, those were the days. And it was a "fairer" America too!

Amazingly, Zuckerman ends with "Inequality and insecurity have simply become too pervasive a feature of American life. The American Dream shouldn't be just a dream."

Apparently, to Zuckerman, who must have emigrated from the former Soviet Union, the American dream is for everyone to live equally, presumably in state mandated housing because, you know, if someone has more than you, it hurts you -- it's at YOUR expense. And job security is a god-given right that can only be provided by the government one supposes.

 


Comments (Page 3)
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on Nov 01, 2006

Economists are glorified philosophers.

Start a successful business or two that involves producing something to CONSUMERS on a large scale and I'll be interested in what they have to say.  But some guy who lived in college for 12 years spouting out pseudo-philosophy on economics is not someone I consider qualified to tell me how markets work.

Like Little-Whip indicated - people won't work harder for the guy sitting around next to them to sponge off of. It's a basic part of human evolution that many so-called "economists" seem to want to wish away.

on Nov 01, 2006
Good points Tov. But wouldn't the gap be self-correcting then? That if the middle class becomes too small that the system should self-correct.


I'm not entirely sure of that. Let me give you an example. It is an extreme example, yes, but it should help prove my point.

In the 1920’s, there was a large gap between rich and poor. That gap is even bigger than the gap which exists today. The 1920’s appeared on the surface to be an economic boon. The stock market soared to unheard-of levels, with no end in sight. Yet, in 1929, the stock market crashed, bringing the Great Depression.

The gap between rich and poor did not cause the Great Depression. The Great Depression was caused by many complex factors. Yet the lack of a strong middle class did make the depression worse. Before the Depression hit, most people bought almost everything- houses, cars, furniture, ext.- on credit. Most people did not have the money to buy what they wanted with cash. In addition, many people who entered in the stock market bought stocks on credit, known as buying on margin. When stocks fell, the average person could not pay off the margin. If the average person could afford to buy things with cash, then a smaller number of people would have been thrown into poverty. There would have been more people with the money to bring the country out of depression. The point is that without a strong middle class, the economy is less stable.



On a slightly related note, I remember reading in my high-school economics book that the Great Depression could not happen again because all the “safety-nets” in place today would soften the landing. I do not remember what safety-nets the book referred to, but I do find that statement very interesting.
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on Nov 01, 2006
Krugman *is* a political hack, but he is also on the short list to win a Nobel in economics for his work on international trade. Just because you think someone's opinions suck doesn't mean that they're "hardly an authority on economics." People whose work gets cited by lots of people are authorities, by definition. Time magazine is more of an authority than your Aunt Ida. It's a fact.

Economists are glorified philosophers.

Start a successful business or two that involves producing something to CONSUMERS on a large scale and I'll be interested in what they have to say.


The economist version of this attitude is Keynes's "Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist." Everybody thinks what they do is best. Just because von Clausewitz never led soldiers to victory himself doesn't mean he didn't know anything about war.

I remember reading in my high-school economics book that the Great Depression could not happen again because all the “safety-nets” in place today would soften the landing. I do not remember what safety-nets the book referred to, but I do find that statement very interesting.


You have to distrust your textbooks a little, no government would admit it would let something like that happen to you. But I think your book is right, it seems like FDIC insurance all by itself was enough to eliminate all the depressions that used to get started from runs on the banks.
on Nov 01, 2006

Time magazine is more of an authority than your Aunt Ida. It's a fact.

No, it is an opinion.

And as far as Krugman is concerned, Nominated for prizes is like breathing.  ANYONE can be.  Only those who have done great work in the field actually win one.  Remember Tookie Williams?  Cindy Sheehan?  I doubt anyone would claim they are authorities on peace, yet they were NOMINATED for the Peace prize.

on Nov 01, 2006
You're right about the Nobel nominations, anyone can be nominated. But I said he was on the short list to _win_, like Jagdish Bhagwati and Eugene Fama.

authority, n.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
m-w.com.

(I hope you recognize the dictionary as an authority.) I think you're arguing that if you don't agree with an authority, he's not an authority. But I recognize the Pope as an authority on Christianity even if his opinion doesn't mean anything to me. If I source a statement to the Pope, Jeffrey Sachs, or Time, it means that at least somebody with credentials shares that opinion. Your Aunt Ida doesn't have that.


on Nov 01, 2006
Keep in mind that I admit that I should be the last person to talk about economics since I can’t even keep my bank account from over drafting once in a while. But I don’t consider myself poor, poor economical management skills, but not poor.

I make about $16 an hour between both jobs. According to my calculations, I make enough to pay my bills (light, water, rent, food, gas) and still have money left over. I don’t consider myself poor at all; apart from the basics I have DIRECTV, a great PC with broadband, a paid for used truck (works great) and a cell phone. All my bills are paid, to date and I even get to eat out often. I work hard for my money; I have a family to feed. I use to be the kind of person who always wanted to help others, while I still have a big heart, I no longer have the drive to give to others as much as I use to. I learned the hard way how ungrateful people can be, so I moved away from it a bit and usually give help thru charities. Shame, but I could not help it.

I do not believe in the poor. This country is based on the belief that anyone can be someone. The American Dream, to have your cake and eat it too. This country is not the most powerful, at the moment, because everyone is poor. Everyone has the opportunity to make something of themselves; just look at the illegal aliens who cross the border, you don’t even have to be an American citizen to make it. It’s all about how bad you want it, but too many it’s just much easier to just sit home and have that check come thru the mail every month. Why work when you can get it for free? If people are too ignorant to better themselves, I don’t see why I should be responsible for them. This whole equality thing doesn’t fly with me, hell, I can’t stand the fact that I work hard while there are some out there who could be working getting welfare. I don’t think so, I don’t want my money going to someone who doesn’t want to work (yes, doesn’t want to).

It should be obvious to the average person that spreading the wealth is a bad idea, if taking from the rich to give to the poor so that they can all be equal makes no sense, all I have to do is not do anything and get money for it, if I was a producer why should I have to work if I could get the same as everyone else for not working? If they all think this way and chose not to keep working, how do we spread a wealth that does not exist? Thus everyone becomes poor. I don’t even have to be a product producer, a company owner or even an economist to see this. How this escapes the average persons mind is beyond me.

If what I was told a few days ago is correct, I would think everyone in the US would be a Republican. Some of my co-workers found it strange that I leaned towards the right. That even though my issues make me a Centrist, I tend to lean to the right more, more than anything because of people like Zuckerman. They felt that because I was poor that I should be Democrat cause Democrats defend the poor? But I’m not poor, as I stated on my first paragraph, I have all the necessities plus and I’m doing just find. Sure I work more than average, but I’m OK cause I not staying this way for ever, I will be moving up eventually cause I believe in myself, cause I have drive, motivation and the desire to better myself. But doesn’t every strive to have more money to get what they want? I know not everyone need to be rich to live a happy life, but money is needed none the less. I refuse to stay poor and I refuse to follow a party who wants me to stay poor cause if they didn’t they would lose me to the opposing party and that would be bad for business. Hell the whole logic is obvious. How can the Democrats really care about the poor, they the first ones who have money for starters; most entertainment stars are Democrats, they got tons of money. How can they want to help better the lives of those who can’t help themselves? That would mean that if people bettered themselves they could become rich and then turn to the Republicans and that, my friend, is bad business. Cause remember Democrats want to help the poor, not people with money, so they have to make sure you stay poor so they can have people to vote for them. Their modo should be “Democrats are for the poor, stay poor and we’ll give you everything”
on Nov 01, 2006
What should be of concern is the ability of Americans to secure a job that enables them to support their family.


I don’t know Col, I simply don’t understand why is it that you feel that somehow I should be responsible for other peoples bad decisions. Why should it be on my back that someone can’t hold a job? You make it sound as if somehow the Gov’t is responsible for making sure everyone keeps the job they got. Somehow you think that people should be paid more just because bills are higher. How’s about these people make it their business to actually get the jobs that pay good as oppose to looking for jobs that pay little and expect to be paid a lot? Of course you’re gonna say they can’t get these jobs cause there are none, but maybe you should look in the newspaper once in a while and realize that there are plenty of jobs out there. There real problem is that the average American does not have the proper education to get these jobs. Now is that the Gov’ts fault? Last I checked there were programs that paid to get you thru school. What if they have kids you might ask, maybe they should have not had kids till they were financially secure, it’s now my responsibility that they messed up? I will never understand why you take away everyone’s responsibility to provide for themselves and their families and put that responsibility on every other American that works and have to maintain their own families.

The jobs that are being created are paying LESS then the jobs that were lost. The people that have not lost their jobs find that their pay after inflation buys less every year.


Again, there are jobs that pay good but the average American is not educated enough to get it. That is their own fault. Everyone here has the right to a good education, there are Gov’t programs that will help you go to school and get the proper diplomas to get these jobs and will train you if necessary. This type of thinking is ignorant cause you basically are saying that people are too stupid to find better jobs, that people are too stupid to better their lives and there for it’s up to the Gov’t to make it better by taking money from those who work hard and give it to those who don’t want to work.

The ability to secure a job and the adequacy of the pay for those that have a job has both social and economic consequences.


No, the ability is their alone. Responsibility, everyone has forgotten what this word means. No one wants to be responsible for their actions anymore. Everyone wants to have it all without lifting a finger. Everyone thinks that rich people made money by laying down like couch potatoes and waiting for it to just fall on their laps. Shame on those who want the easy way out, shame on those who want to do less and get more, shame on those who want what does not belong to them.

People who can not find work or whose job does not enable them to support their family produces unrest.


The only ones who can’t are those who do not try hard enough. I moved my family twice looking for a better life. While I’m not making 100 thousand a year, I am making enough to support my family, pay my bills and still have some fun on the side. No work? How come I have 2 jobs? How come I just applied for a position in the IT Dept of one of the companies I work for, that if I get the job I can quit my second job? Lazy is the key word here, lazy people who want more for less, who want easy jobs that pay a lot, who want to flip burgers for $10 an hour. That’s laughable. I don’t plan on paying $8 for a Whopper Jr combo just because Don Joe wants to be able to drive a Lexus while working at Burger King.

In addition, the lower income of the masses has an impact on spending and can contribute to lower economic growth (the 1.6% increase in the last quarter for example).


Interesting, considering that I have yet to see any big stores go bankrupt, any stores claiming to lose money, malls empty, etc. People have money, if they don’t know how to spend it, it’s not my fault.

A recent survey shows that the average CEO makes 450 times the amount of the average worker.


Maybe you can explain to me what all these people, who are not earning 450 times more money, are doing wrong? Why are they not earning 450 more money? Why can’t they do it as well? Cause they are stupid? There’s a difference between stupidity and uneducated, the second one can be fixed with education. BTW, I find it hard to believe that many people make $150,000 a week or $600,000 a month and those who do, God bless them for being smarter than the average person. Still I don’t see why I care what they make. Who cares what some CEO’s make, I care about my paycheck, not theirs. Otherwise I would have to also care about my supervisors check, my fellow co-worker’s check and even your check Col. I don’t care, I care only for mine, if they do more than me then it’s me who’s doing something wrong.

That means that in one day the CEO makes as much as the average makes in TWO YEARS of work. That is not reasonable and breads resentment!


Resentment? Because they make more money than me? This is called generalizing, you’re saying that everyone has the same education but it’s unfair that a CEO (The head of a company, the guy with the responsibility of the entire company) earns more than a guy who flips burgers, a guy/gal in the mailroom dept of any company, a guy/gal at Walmart, etc. Isn’t this funny that you cry so much about privacy when Bush was doing the “illegal” wiretapping yet somehow everyone should know what everyone else makes? My check, my pay rate is my personal information and you need not to know how much I make unless I deem it necessary. So life is not fair, boo hoo, deal with it. Life is about adaptation, life is about survival. Life is about working to get what you need, what you want. The animal kingdom is proof of this, while male lions sit around waiting for the females to bring food, their position is constantly challenged by other lions who also want to be lazy and don’t want to have to hunt. Meanwhile female lions get their share of their hard work.

Bringing the wealth distribution into better balance is NOTHING like Communism.


And how exactly does everyone get a fair share in a world where everyone is unique, where there are several shades of blue for those who don’t like your basic blue on their Toyotas, where there are 10 different choices on the Burger King menu, even for those who are looking for fat free food. Equilibrium? I guess we will all be eating just Whoppers, just Coca Cola, just Ben and Jerry’s, just Toyotas, that way everyone has the same and no one can complain. Stupidity at it’s finest.
on Nov 02, 2006
People who can not find work or whose job does not enable them to support their family produces unrest.



The only ones who can’t are those who do not try hard enough.

Charles, this is the only part of your post to which I have to take small exception. You are overlooking those who are physically handicapped and actually unable to work. While I do agree in general that society does not owe anyone a living, I think that as a society we do have some responsibility to care for that small percentage of our society that is physically unable to provide for themselves. Not the lazy, but the unable. The programs that we have in place for those people are worth spending tax money upon in my opinion.
on Nov 02, 2006
Charles, this is the only part of your post to which I have to take small exception. You are overlooking those who are physically handicapped and actually unable to work. While I do agree in general that society does not owe anyone a living, I think that as a society we do have some responsibility to care for that small percentage of our society that is physically unable to provide for themselves


I'm kinda surprised to see you actually pointed that out to me. It's obvious that those with handicaps are not the ones I was referring to. But keep in mind that even those with handicaps have proved time and time again that they are just as capable of being productive citizens as any regular person. Now that I think about it, I still stick to what I said, even when it comes to handicap people. While there are those who can not really do anything if not much to be productive citizens and can't provide for themselves, there are plenty who can and I have seen time and time again how many of them do, so I take no exception to anyone who is either just to lazy to try (handicap or not), to lazy to try harder and/or gives up too easily. I am not poor and as long as I am willing to try harder and harder I will keep myself out of the poor category. If I can do it, without college education, without parents to give me a car, a house or money, without Federal money (I do not like taking food stamps, welfare or medicare), anyone can do it. It's all about heart, desire, passion, will power and love for oneself and those who depend on you.

The programs that we have in place for those people are worth spending tax money upon in my opinion.


You're not suggesting I, in any way, gave the impression that we should not help those who are physically incapable of helping themselves? I would never consider such a thing, it is not their fault they find themselves in these situations and if it is their fault, it does not mean they should suffer the consequences. I actually feel hurt that you, somehow, got this from what I said. I had a cousin who was handicapped, he never walked, couldn't talk straight, could not even do his necessities without help from his brothers and mom. He died many years ago, but he still lives in my heart. I have a coworker who uses a wheel chair, is deaf and mute, yet somehow he comes to work everyday and does his work, in the accounting dept. My father will eventually become handicapped, he can barely see anymore, he grows weaker by the day, he has diabetes and several other problems. I would rather be spending Gov't money helping handicap people than fighting this war in Iraq, helping Iraqis rebuild, defending Israel (no disrespect intended), feeding Africans, etc. I don't think we do enough.
on Nov 04, 2006
The stuff you discuss (saying it was suggested and discussed by Zuckerman) has been tried before - it was called Communism - and didn't work.


quite wrong. That stuff is called social democracy, and it works quite right in many parts of the world.

Like in Quebec, while true that when your are rich, you can gain access to medical treatment less quickly than if you were in the state, the average treatment for the population is higher than in the U.S.

But we do have different mindset.

However, not all that is "sharing the ressources" is all-communism. Remember that, Comrad!
on Nov 04, 2006

What does Quebec produce Cikomyr? What are its non-natural resource exports?

I define something doing "well" if it is actually a net contributor to global progress in some way. Otherwise it's effectively a parasite.  I am not certian Quebec isn't "doing well" simply because it, like many "social democracies" in Europe that they just don't live off the productivity of others.

One quick example: You mention healthcare.  Okay. Let's talk about it. How many of the drugs Quebecians are using were invented in Quebec? Any at all?

on Nov 04, 2006

I'm sorry you dislike the label "objectivist", Draginol, but in any case I used it in reference to the philosophy of Ayn Rand, not to you, and its use was apt. You claim you have nowhere suggested you are an objectivist after opening your piece by calling Atlas Shrugged a "classic book". Your entire defense against Zuckerman is based on your summation of the philosophy, "...government doesn't make wealth, people do."

The article starts out praising the Bible of objectivism, makes the basic assumptions of objectivism, and uses objectivist arguments to counter Zuckerman.

Similarly, I summed up what I thought was your position thusly:

"...lower taxes, fewer and less funded social programs, and laissez-faire competition."

And I voiced a disagreement and gave a reason and a corroborating link. I thought the point was to have a little debate, to discuss the issue.


I'm sorry if I mistook your position, which you sum up as:


"Government needs to be strong enough to enforce contracts, provide security, and play the role of referee between corporations and citizens."


to be laissez-faire--which wiki describes as,


"...opposing economic interventionism and taxation by the state beyond that which is perceived to be necessary to maintain peace, security, and property rights."


My mistake.

Then again, I was debating the topic not the man. You take offense at my tone, when even my sharpest jabs are nothing compared the outright name-calling and insults exchanged on this site constantly. You call others "...full of crap", so I'm to gather that is okay. But I try express the opinion that I think a particular economic philosophy is a bit short sighted (i.e. not just black and white), and all of a sudden things get personal?

I see now that any real world example would just be dismissed as apples and oranges. And well they should be. Because all those real world examples are apples, in that they really exist, and this minimalist government (that many would term objectivist) is a hypothetical clockwork orange. Real national governments always provide more than security and enforcement. Why would we base policy decisions on this platonic ideal of an economic model which doesn't even allow itself to accept reality? Any model of the economy and the effect of government policy on the economy that doesn't take into consideration the fact that governments actually do provide numerous additional services besides security and protection is bound to be a error prone.

So, in my own words, I find the objectivist argument used here against Zuckerman and against increased expenditures on certain social programs, such as education, to be flawed for a number of reasons.

First, it is a theoretical ideal based on the behavior and personalities and logic of a science fiction novel. It is using an idealization to make decisions about reality.

Second, I find the real world examples which refute the conclusion--that taxation and social programs mean economic stagnation--to be compelling. Whether or not these actual examples of societies existing which belie the whole premise are allowed into the discussion, I find the additional fact that there is not to be found a society which does meet the criteria to be equally telling. If there really were a society with limited government " ...strong enough to enforce contracts, provide security, and play the role of referee between corporations and citizens." then we could talk about that society, and see if it really behaved by the predicted rules.

But, since such a nation doesn't exist, all talk is just hypothetical. Except those examples, of course, of economies that do not collapse as this argument says they must. Those are real.


Draginol demanded:



"Explain in your OWN words how confiscating property from those who earn it to those who have not earned it will make us perform better."

How about you let me choose which positions and arguments I will support and defend, and stop putting words in my mouth. You cry straw man, then prop up this scarecrow. It seems funny to have to explain why governments tax citizens to a multi-millionaire successful executive, but I'll give it a quick shot, then refer you to the history of western civilization if you'd like to study it more.

The government collects taxes to pay for services we as citizens all enjoy. Things like highway and transportation infrastructure. Competition is great. Capitalism is great. But in some arenas of society and civilization, we have found it is more expedient to handle it ourselves.

Take highways again. We pay taxes to the government and they build the roads--buying the labor and materials on the open market (ideally) through competitive bidding. We all use the roads, but corporations drive big ass trucks and citizens sometimes ride bikes. Should the bike rider have to pay an equal amount for road upkeep as the owner of a fleet of trucks? Regardless, everyone " performs better " for having the paved roads to travel on.

The benefits of strong public education, for example, may be intangible, but I feel that we as a society benefit from the fact that just about everyone else around us went to a school and learned to read and write. I find this useful everyday, and worth my tax-dollar. In fact, before I defend the millennia old tradition of public education, the argument against should consist of more than economic speculation and libertarian angst.

In reality the government provides each of us with many services, every day.

Because we can't always just count up the trucks to see how much someone is using the road, we need another measure to ensure that everyone pays their share. The amount of profit an entity makes is a valid measure to scale from--or at least take into consideration--in that it reflects just how much that entity enjoyed the protections and services of the government.

on Nov 04, 2006

--begin quote--

Draginol demanded:


"Explain in your OWN words how confiscating property from those who earn it to those who have not earned it will make us perform better."

How about you let me choose which positions and arguments I will support and defend, and stop putting words in my mouth. You cry straw man, then prop up this scarecrow. It seems funny to have to explain why governments tax citizens to a multi-millionaire successful executive, but I'll give it a quick shot, then refer you to the history of western civilization if you'd like to study it more.

The government collects taxes to pay for services we as citizens all enjoy. Things like highway and transportation infrastructure. Competition is great. Capitalism is great. But in some arenas of society and civilization, we have found it is more expedient to handle it ourselves.

Take highways again. We pay taxes to the government and they build the roads--buying the labor and materials on the open market (ideally) through competitive bidding. We all use the roads, but corporations drive big ass trucks and citizens sometimes ride bikes. Should the bike rider have to pay an equal amount for road upkeep as the owner of a fleet of trucks? Regardless, everyone " performs better " for having the paved roads to travel on.

The benefits of strong public education, for example, may be intangible, but I feel that we as a society benefit from the fact that just about everyone else around us went to a school and learned to read and write. I find this useful everyday, and worth my tax-dollar. In fact, before I defend the millennia old tradition of public education, the argument against should consist of more than economic speculation and libertarian angst.

In reality the government provides each of us with many services, every day.

Because we can't always just count up the trucks to see how much someone is using the road, we need another measure to ensure that everyone pays their share. The amount of profit an entity makes is a valid measure to scale from--or at least take into consideration--in that it reflects just how much that entity enjoyed the protections and services of the government.

-- end quote --

The first part which I didn't quote basically revolves around my objection to your patronization of what I had written.  I feel that having first hand, real world experience qualifies me to state with some authority on how the concept of confiscating from one group to give to another causes harm. 

My view on that is pretty simple - if you want to patronize me or treat me as if I don't know what I'm talking about then you better have your own set of credentials to put forward.

Now with regards to the substantive part of your response:

1) I didn't put any words in your mouth. This is an article I wrote on a very specific topic. As the author, I have a pretty good idea of what the topic was about.  You attempted to turn it into a strawman argument -- that is, a different argument than what I was making.

I asked you to respond to the issue at hand rather than trying to circumvent it. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, then don't. I'm not forcing you to do anything.

2)

-- begin quote --

The government collects taxes to pay for services we as citizens all enjoy. Things like highway and transportation infrastructure. Competition is great. Capitalism is great. But in some arenas of society and civilization, we have found it is more expedient to handle it ourselves.

-- end quote --

The government is not confiscating my property to hand to another individual when they are building roads or providing some other service that "we as citizens all enjoy".

Again: This isn't a discussion about eliminating taxation.  Note the title. It is about confiscating property from the people who earned it to hand over to those who have not in the name of "fairness".

So in the end, you didn't address what the article was about.  Which leads me to conclude that you either did not understand what the article was about due to either poor communication skills on my part or poor comprehension on your part or you are intentionally trying to change the topic into one whose counter is much easier to defeat (i.e. create a strawman argument).

Zuckerman believes that the gap between rich and poor is very bad and that the government needs to do something about it.  His solutions did not involve having better roads. 

He tangentially does mention public education in the sense that he wants to take money from one person to give to another in order for them ato attend universities. But that wasn't his central theme by a longshot (And I'm not sure if even Zuckerman is really advocating free college education to everyone).

We live in a society where there are significant gaps between the rich and poor. I don't accept the premise that this is a bad thing on its own.  Significant gaps can be a bad thing in certain cases but the existence of a gap by itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It only means that the government isn't regulating the economy (or in some cases it can mean it is totally regulating the economy).  The less regulation, the more of a gap there will be in the United States.

Zuckerman seems to feel that the best solution is to take money from the people creating wealth to give to the people who are not creating wealth in order to satisfy some aesthetic statistic. I don't agree. I have explained, at length, why I think we all suffer when the producers are robbed of their capital to pay for those who are not producing.

on Nov 05, 2006
What does Quebec produce Cikomyr? What are its non-natural resource exports?
I define something doing "well" if it is actually a net contributor to global progress in some way. Otherwise it's effectively a parasite. I am not certian Quebec isn't "doing well" simply because it, like many "social democracies" in Europe that they just don't live off the productivity of others.
One quick example: You mention healthcare. Okay. Let's talk about it. How many of the drugs Quebecians are using were invented in Quebec? Any at all?


Well, we DO have a fairly large pharmaceutic industry, which explains why drugs are cheaper over here.

We also have a quite efficient software industry in Montreal.

Recently (15 last years), we produced a quite large amount of culture (in the form of music, movies and various forms of art) that was sold torough the U.S. Did you knew that 4 of the 10 permanent shows in Las Vegas are Quebec products?

Ever heard of Le Cirque du Soleil? Cavalia? Those a Quebec-made.

We also have a huge paper industry (not just the wood exploitation, but the actual transformation into paper). And one of the largest Aluminium industry in the world (if not the biggest)

The software and cultural industries, which produced quite a large amount of money, a direct consequences of a competent social education procured by the Provincial Governement. (Less and less competent in the recent years, I am ashamed to say. But we have pinpointed the problem recently.)
on Nov 05, 2006
Oh, I forgot to say. The Quebec was, in the recent years (I don't remember from when to when), the #1 exporter of high-technologies
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