We don't know the whole story in many different ways.

We can all agree what was done was wrong. But we don't even know precisely what was "done" beyond humiliating some Iraqi POWs. The pictures could be a week old or a year old. They could be of innocent Iraqi's who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or they could be pictures of Iraqi's who used to run the torture chambers and the soldiers were playing ironic games with them.

The damage that these American soldiers have done is pretty obvious. But what is also pretty obvious is the double standard and how quickly people jump to conclusions without learning about the background or even the specifics.

I think the U.S. is on the hot seat right now. Many people were waiting for an opportunity like this to come around to jump on just to add to their overall disagreement with the war. Although I completely disagree with what happened, I am not too surprised by the reaction it has received. When the whole story surfaces is when we should start making inferences on whose fault it was. Either way it was no less damaging. I think since we are the leaders of this war on terrorism we have an extra responsiblity to show our humanitarian side. That is why whoever is responsible should be disciplined. The U.S. needs negativity right now like a desert needs sand.

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Reply By: Anthony R. Posted: Saturday, May 01, 2004
This controversy is just ridiculous. American college hazing is a lot worse than this alleged “prisoner torture.” Perhaps the Iraqis would rather go back to the good old days.
Saddam would’ve had their tongues amputated, or thrown them off three story buildings, or worse.
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of the qualities that people admire most about extremist terrorists, it's their sense of humor, even-temperedness, and ability to put the actions of a very small minority of us soldiers into the proper context.

HM what happened to my post? Anyway...

I hope that weren't true, but if that is true, I hope that those so-called American solders gets what they deserve. No matter who the prisoners, from innocent to someone like Hitler, prisoners is NOT there to be abused.

XX: I think we all agree on that. These soldiers must be punished harshly and publicly.

But 17 soldiers out of 200,000 isn't representative. And even if what they allegedly did is true, it's nothing compared to what Saddam was doing let alone what the insurgents have done to Americans.

When we start setting POW's on fire and hanging them from bridges, then we can talk about there being a real problem.

Based on your track record, I firmly expect that if we, god forbid, started setting POWs on fire and hanging them from bridges, you'd find some way to excuse that, also. I do hope I'm wrong, of course.

President Bush had it right when he, without hesitation, correctly identified this behavior as disgraceful, disgusting, and absolutely unacceptable. Your attempt to invoke moral equivalence between these (unfortunately America) war criminals and Saddam Hussein is shameful.

Just so people know what we're talking about, here's a link to some of the photos in question:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

The behavior was disgraceful and in my post I said it couldn't be excused.

But I abhor the left's blindness to how American POWs are ALREADY treated.

It's not about excusing, it's about keeping things in perspective.

Precisely.

Brad you are totally missing the point.

The US government failed. It had the responsibility to ensure that pow's were treated right and it failed. This is not just a case of a tiny number of bad soldiers, this is a case of a system which allowed an environment for those bad soldiers to commit torture. A system whioch failed to inform it's soldiers how to treat prisoners. A system that failed to supervise it's soldiers. A system where systematic abuse (not just occasional one off incidents) occurred. That's where the real damage comes from. Why would any Iraqi now surrender to coalition forces.

And before you ask, yes I did comment in disgust at the way the 4 American mercenaries were killed in Falluja. I also warned at the time against American over reaction. Pity they didn't take my advice.

At least the US administration now realises the seriousness of the situation with Bush going on Arab TV to try damage control.

Paul.

The thing is, as an American, I have every right to hold my government to a high human right's standard. The failure of others to uphold the protocols of the Geneva convention is not an excuse for relaxing our standards or not calling our government to task when we see violations. We, as Americans, put ourselves on a moral pedestal--I have every right to express outrage when someone tries to knock the pedestal over, or a fellow American puts cracks in the pedestal.

And, just to clarify, this was more than humiliation--there were at least 2 murders, and 23 other cases are being investigated. So please, Anthony R--do not equate this to fraternity hazing. Justice and revenge are not the same. These soldiers sought revenge, not justice. And the cycle of revenge will continue.

Good Lord do you people not know about the US's history of treatment of prisoners? That's why I marvel at the US planner's awesome control over information. I doubt even a totalitarian system could produce such an uneven playing field. I'll inform you mildly by saying you should look into the real history of the post WW2 Germany and Eisenhower's nice hospitality when it came to open-air prisoner camps. It's not in your history books to be sure, but there is ample evidence if you choose to look for it. It's unfortunate so many people are so unaware of their country's own true history. It's a display of awesome complete control over information. Think about it. Nothing anti-american (news that is true but makes the US look bad) makes it onto and into the US mainstream news, such as the fact the US had been torturing the Iraqis long before these new revelations. And when it makes it onto the non conventional alternative news sites, it's flying saucer whackos so who cares. Or if it's a foreign Arab news show it's propaganda so it's all a lie....they win both ways, and I bow to that kind of control they have over the populations. Whether you realize it or not, you all are expendable and indifferent to an indifferent government and are totally submissive to the fact you have no power whatsoever. Don't misunderstand me either. Even people like Rice and Bush are in the same boat as you. They'll come and go but the real power remains unabated and in full control. They're just frontmen for the real powers that be.

We need the cooperation of the Iraqi people if the model of Iraqi stability in the Middle East is to become a reality. I think one of our Arab allies like the Jordanians or Saudi Arabians need to become involved in the incarceration from this point forward, they could go in the prison and assure the Arab world that prisoners are receiving humane treatment.
Americans have had some rough days in Iraq, but there is no excuse for substituting one brand of torture for another, I am glad to see that the Bush administration is moving fast on this. This certainly isn’t his fault; I don’t think “he knew.”


“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons”
--Dostoevsky

Bush didn't even apologize on behalf of America.

that political cartoon is right on the money...the only thing I have a problem with in this whole situation is that this really makes it hard for the United States to claim that were the MORAL force in Iraq. I mean I can't even count the number of times I've heard people talk about how the torture chambers of Saddam's regime are closed forever. But now it makes it APPEAR like we just replaced them with our own torture chambers. Granted I don't think US military servicemembers are torturing Iraqi prisoners as standard operating procedure, but this really makes us look like hypocrits to a degree. I mean, these people really don't like our presence in their country to begin with, and now one of our main selling points for getting rid of Saddam is bullshit...at least in their perception. However, like several people have posted, their barbaric behavior with incidents like the killing of those contractors doesn't give us any excuse to behave in the same manner.

Another point about those idiots who got caught torturing prisoners....Those soldiers were from a Army Reserve MP Batallion from Maryland. They'd been over in Iraq for over a year, then they got the word to pack up can come home. Then about an hour before they were supposed to get on a plane bound for the United States, the DOD changed their mind and sent the whole unit back up North for an openended extension of their deployment. How much does that have to suck???? The same thing happened to my unit over there last August, only they changed their mind back again like a week later and sent us home. The way the DOD fucked with us, I thought about torturing someboy too!! jk.