Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Or why I think anti-war people are ignorant
Published on May 3, 2004 By Draginol In Current Events

As time goes on, the more I am convinced that most people who are anti-USA (specifically Americans who are anti-American) don't get their information from things we call books. At best, it seems they get their "information" from the Internet or from some propaganda source.

You have the people who claim Bush "lied" about our reasons for going into Iraq. It's hard to conclude that these people are either mindlessly regurgitating things they've read on the net or they just have no idea what the hell they're talking about.  Bob Woodward, one of the preeminent journalists of our age and certainly no conservative, has written 2 books on Bush and it becomes bloody clear why we needed to go into Iraq and that Bush certainly didn't lie. At one point, in fact, Bush demanded certainty that Iraq had WMD stockpiles as well as WMD programs.

History would show that WMD stockpiles may not have been present in Iraq but WMD programs certainly existed. In either case though, Bush didn't "lie" anymore than Clinton "lied". In Woordward's new book, the Egyptian Foreign Minister told Bush that Iraq definitely had biological weapons on hand. So did Saudi intelligence.

Not that any of that matters to me. I could have cared less whether Saddam had chemical weapons on hand. I don't consider such weapons to be a threat. What I do care about are REAL WMDs like nuclear weapons and Saddam (or his sons) only had to wait out sanctions. The French and Russians were interested in getting them lifted. And we were only one Democratic administration away from likely lifting those sanctions.  That was why I wanted Saddam removed.

Which brings me to the point of this article - what kind of idiot sees a comparison between Vietnam and Iraq? First of all, for those not in the know, Vietnam was a civil war between the north and the south. The north wanted to conquer the south and was being supplied by the USSR and China, two of the world's most powerful nations who were right on the border. The North wanted to implement communism in the south.  The US supported the south but was afraid of invading the North for fear of escalation. So it was a no-win situation for the US. The US goal was to keep the south free.

By contrast, the goal in Iraq has already been accomplished -- the removal of Saddam Hussein and his regime. That was the whole "mission accomplished" thing that the left keeps spazzing about. Yes, anti-war people, the mission was accomplished. Saddam's gone. He regime is an ex-parrot. It's no more.

So why are we still there? Because the US wants to stay and help (key word HELP) build a stable liberal democracy to serve as an example to other nations in that region to "dry the swamp" of terrorists. 

So how does this compare to Vietnam? It doesn't. Not in the slightest. At this point, it's more akin to Kosovo or Bosnia. The US can stay or it can go. It just depends on mainly what the Iraqi's want. We want a stable democratic Iraq but we don't NEED it. We are willing to go through some pain because it helps the United States but it helps the Iraqi's more and we have a responsbiility to help them now as long as they want that help. I'm all for a referrendum in Iraq asking whether they want us to stay. If they voted no, I'd say we leave. It's no skin off our back.

By contrast, in South Vietnam, the people didn't want us to leave. We were what was keeping the murderous North from coming in. And when we left, the north conquered the south leading to the deaths of over 2 MILLION people and the spread of anarchy into Camobida, Laos, and other neighboring countries.  Not that the anti-war left of the 70s gave a rat's ass about the victims of communism. Didn't hear too much coverage of the massive slaughter of innocents once North Vietnam took over and led to such niceties as Pol Pot and more death and destruction.

It's really hard to think of any valid comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam -- superficial or otherwise.


Comments (Page 1)
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on May 03, 2004
I am SO glad you said this! And much more eloquently than I could have. I'm so angry that the left is trying to force this comparison as well as the comparison of homosexual agenda with civil rights. Are we to relive the 60s and 70s just to sway people to become more liberal? I think the end result was two mediocre democrat presidents and one awesome Republican president (Reagan) to follow. Bush is Reaganesque (despite how hackneyed the claim is becomming) and I think he's doing a great job. Here here.
on May 03, 2004
Here is a comparison Brad, American forces are stuck in a foreign land fighting multiple enemies that hate the US ten times more than they hate each other. Sound familiar? Of course it does, Americans will eventually have to hasten a retreat from Iraq with a massive loss of life the only thing being achieved. The Iraq war is the modern Vietnam war.
on May 03, 2004

That's a pretty ignorant and unosophisticated comparison, Peter.

Thus far, after over a year of action, the US has lost <1,000 troops. Hardly "massive".  Secondly, the US has already accomplished its goal. Arguing the US has to "retreat" is akin that the US had to "Retreat" from Japan after the occupation was over.

After June 30, Iraqis' are back in charge of their own country.  Whether we stay or not depends on them and whether we want to be there. 

Frankly, anyone comparing some insurgents in a city in Iraq to say the Vietcong needs to take some elementary history classes.

on May 03, 2004
By removing Saddam a whole host of violent groups that were suppressed by his regime have now begun to try an take control of Iraq. Do not misunderstand me, I was extremely pro-war, not least because I have significant shareholdings in many arms companies. But surely a rational person can see that the invasion has brought havoc to the region. Forgive me, but the removal of Saddam was a secondary aim was it not? The war was supposed to be about destroying biological weapons. The Americans have now taken it upon themselves to suggest removing Hussein was the primary objective of the invasion. Maybe the yanks should have done it first time around, through their cowardice a entire new war had to be launched.
on May 03, 2004
I don't mean to be rude but I must point out the fact that while Dragman takes his time to laugh and jest about the useless comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam, the US is getting sunk and stuck in a worsening situation with no options spoken other than to 'send more troops' and 'send more armor' and meanwhile the death toll is mounting at an accelerated pace and the insurgents are getting more organized, more wily, and more devious and more sophisticated intheir attacks. So Dragman you may not realize it but that's what's already happened in Vietnam as is now again. So talk all you want over how dumb the comparison is. It's going to take you a few more years and thousands more dead and billions more US treasure to be wasted before you realize you were in fact wrong. You're right in that it isn't like it exactly now, but in time it will.
on May 03, 2004

Peter: Removing Saddam was the primary goal. I'm not sure how much more clear that could have been. The war was specifically about removing a regime that we believed posed a threat to the United States in the form of both having and intending to create WMD of increasing magnitude. History has hence shown that he didn't have stockpiles but that he did have WMD programs. He had to go.

We have Saddam bodily in custody now. The primary mission is over. The test is passed. At this point it's extra credit. We're running up the score.

Mikimouse: US combat deaths in Iraq are less than 1,000 after a year. In your Vietnam mindet, who plays the role of say..oh the USSR? Or how about North Vietnam? Anyone who compares the two is, at best, unfamiliar with the history of Vietnam other than in the most crudest sense. 

When the US starts up the draft to send troops to Iraq because a new super power has emerged to back say Iran in trying to annex Iraq into a single state bent towards destroying the United States then comparisons might start to be apt. 

But the US has the option right now to leave Iraq with its primary mission completed and the whole business cost us less than 1,000 combat deaths (or less than 10 minutes of combat deaths in a typical major WW2 offensive).

The anti-war movement doesn't even know what to advocate these days. You have "hawks" like me who have no problem bringing the troops home now. Technically, the "peaceniks" should be the ones arguing that we stay there to help the Iraqi's put together a stable, liberal democracy. I think such a government would be a nice bonus, but hardly our primary mission.

But the comparison really boils down to this:

The primary mission of Vietnam was to keep South Vietnam from being conquered by North Vietnam. WIthout the US presence, South Vietnam was toast (and when we left, it was).

The primary mission of Iraq was to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein. That's already been accomplished.  On June 30, 2004, Iraq will regain its sovereignty. At that point, the US has no compelling reason to stay other than to accomplish various secondary missions and only then if the Iraqi people through their sovereign government want us to stay.

The anti-war movement in Vietnam wanted our troops home. The hawks wanted the troops to stay.

By contrast, the hawks see our mission as accomplished in Iraq. If the Iraqi's don't want us there, then bring home the troops. This "quagmire" nonsense is just that -- nonsense. We're not "stuck" in Iraq. We can leave when we choose to because our main reason for going has been accomplished already.

I'm curious, Mikimouse - what do YOU think the main reason the US is still in Iraq and why do you oppose it?

on May 03, 2004
Lol. I enjoyed reading that as it was from the heart. But you're wrong. The US can't leave now, especially since it's now known the heandover will be bullshit. The US will still control Iraq. Even the lowly police precincts will be under US military command. The nature of the war in Vietnam is the comparison, not the prime players. One thing to ask yourself is if the US was there to help SV why was 95% of all the ordinance dropped onto SV rather than NV? Because it was an attack on South Vietnam. Strategic hamlet = concentration camps.
on May 03, 2004
Draginol, the initial aim of the US was supposedly to remove WMD programmes, even George Bush professed that if Saddam gave up his programmes the war could have been averted. The Bush administration has only said the main aim was to remove Saddam after he had been deposed and the weapons were proving elusive. Once again the Americans have assumed the self-appointed role of the 'Worlds Policeman', the construction of a democracy was not what George and Tony built their pre-war persuasion programmes on, so why are our British boys being held back with the Americans? This is why the peasants are aggreived by New Labour and the Republicans. It is becoming clear now that our governments have vested interests in the region. They wish to construct a puppet government controlled by Western forces, as has been done in Afghanistan. Quite frankly, only a bloody idiot would seriously think that these Arabs could ever administrate a democracy effectively. Until this is realised, British mothers will weep for their mutilated soldier sons returning home in coffins.
on May 03, 2004
you mean as has been done in Kabul. The rest of the country is run by the Taliban or the warlords or both.
on May 03, 2004

Mikimouse: The US can leave whenever it wants. What magical entity is forcing us to stay if we don't want to stay?

And you didn't answer the question so I'll repeat it: Mikimouse - what do YOU think the main reason the US is still in Iraq and why do you oppose it?

 

on May 03, 2004
wtf do you think man? How silly. O-I-L. And I know you were fishing around waiting for me to answer with that. They can't leave because they're building 'enduring bases'. That's not the actions of a withdrawing army. Oh and the usual shit about the 'loss of prestige' and the 'loss of credibility'. I opposed it b/c of the US's refusal to enlist the UN's help. Unlike you, from day 1 I was saying it was all a lie, there were no WMD in Iraq, the US is committing atrocities, ALL of it...to no avail. Now people who support the war are debating the EXTENT of the atrocities and WHO IS TO BLAME for atrocities...not the fact that they're happening at all.
on May 03, 2004

Let me make sure I have this straight:

You think the United States is spending hundreds of billions of dollars and the lives of hundreds of its soldiers so that "it" can control the oil of that country whose value tops out at around 20 billion per year  (Iraq's pre-war peak GNP). And of course somehow you think that the US would be able to directly control all this oil politically?

I take it you're not economically...well off. You see, what I describe above is what we call a poor ROI ratio. Oil, as a strategic resource, is not that valuable. Not when it would have been much cheaper to simply make nice with Saddam and buy it from him without the expense of hundreds of billions of dollars.

Atrocities, btw, occur in every war. American GIs killed thousands of German POWs after surrendering during the course of the war. And I won't even go into the horrific treatment of Japanese soldiers who fell into American hands at times. And yet, comparatively, the US/UK treated POWs better than any other combatant. The same is true now. I realize your hatred of the United States blinds you to any sort of objective reasoning ability but for the sake of others reading this: 17 out of 200,000 soldiers misbehaving is not a pattern.  Even before those pictures came out, I could have told you that some POWs in Iraq were mistreated. Why? Because that is always the case. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a statistic somewhere in the Pentagon as to "abuse rates" of POWs where they evaluate whether there is a problem or not based on whether they exceed a certain level.  Keep in mind, these reports came from the United States via 60 minutes and they were already under investigation by the military before they aired.

People like you were predicting HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Iraqi casaulties before the war. So we have a ways to go before that dire figure is reached.  There were no WMD stockpiles in Iraq but there were WMD programs with more in planning by Saddam which is why we went there.

Unlike you, I actually wrote public blogs on these things before the war. My opinion has not changed on the matter nor have my reasons on why we went into Iraq. History has demonstrated that I was correct -- Saddam was a threat that needed to be removed. We've done that.

There is no comparison to Vietnam because our primary objective has already been met. It's really as simple as that. People like you just raise the bar until you get the desired result. But that's okay because people like you are rarely taken seriously except by other extreme left wingers. You don't even realize how ridiculous ranting about "OIILLLLL" sounds because you don't really understand the issue other than what you've been fed by other zealots.

As far as I'm concerned, the US can leave any time it wants. I favored US action to get rid of Saddam. He's gone. Because we know that ooooiillllll isn't the reason we're there, we can leave whenever we choose. The reason we can leave when we want is because our main reason for going has been met -- Saddam's not just gone but in our custody.

on May 03, 2004
What's funny is that the U.S. is supposedly in Iraq for oil, while the U.N was against the whole thing for money, and yet, the U.N. comes out as the good guy.
on May 03, 2004
Indeed. That is one of the ironies about the "opposition". We can debate all day about whether the US has excessive interest in Iraqi oil. But the UN's interest in Iraqi oil is proven beyond a doubt.
on May 03, 2004


The best case scenario for oil is fifty years supply, it is a dying industry. Fifteen or twenty years from now every automobile will rely on the fuel cell. Kook Franken and Trotskyite Moore don’t discuss those realities.
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