Because I don't spend any time on my weekends doing home repair, fixing cars, etc.

You fail to realize that many people get great pleasure out of working on their homes or cars. I count myself as one of those that finds home improvement/maintenance as a leisurely activity. You make it sound painful, and seem to be forgetting that because you don't like something, doesn't mean other people subscribe to your thinking. I think the personal touch around the home is far more important than hiring a mindless contractor drone, whom more often than not don't even do jobs right. Also you seem to neglect the fact that having kids help with tasks builds character and a strong foundation. Tossing them infront of World of Warcraft for the weekend accomplishes nothing for their long term benefit. How often have you taken your kids fishing?

I don't have to drive across country with my family, wasting days of the vacation in a car, but instead can afford to fly us all so that we spend the maximum amount of time actually on vacation.

Yes we know how fast, easy and hassle free flying is. NOT! Once again you fail to understand that for many people, there is great fun driving across the country and seeing the sights while relaxing in the car. For many people this is an integral and fun part of a vacation without the hassles of dealing with flight delays, planes sitting on the tarmac for 22 hours, overly abusive TSA screening, lost luggage and other nonsense. Flying comes cheap, people that avoid flying usually do it by choice and not for economic reasons. You seem to make it out that only the poor and uninformed choose to drive, yet I personally think that the uninformed and impatient are the ones flying.

"That's the sort of talk that has led your country to having water with so much shit in it that you can't drink it safely, boats and cars that you have to import from elsewhere and poverty everywhere."

So instead of debatably dirty water, our corporate overlords have granted us toxic tap water filled with carcinogenic chlorine(and subsequent chloroform gases in the home), and cumulatively degrading fluoride(pesticide residue) and an assorted list of VOC's. I'd rather drink out of a horse trawl than the garbage that comes out of the tap in city water that requires expensive filtration systems to make it non-carcinogenic.

Who appointed you the overseer that determines what poverty is? Personally, I view people that work 50+ hours a week slaving over stressful positions as living in poverty. They lose track of what life is about, and instead focus on the pursuit of the all-might-dollar oblivious or uncaring to the real world around them. They close themselves off, push forward a me-first elitist mentality and begin to look down on anyone not on the same plane as them. What they don't realize is they aren't any better than the next guy, they certainly aren't any smarter, and they probably aren't any happier. More often than not, they are miserable neurotics suffering from random bouts of depression. They spend so much time aquiring wealth and giving up their health to aquire it, then eventually they lose their health and then spend all of their money trying to get their health back.

Quite honestly Draginol, you don't have a life I admire, rather I feel sorry for you. Seriously.

Nope, apparently socialists DON'T get it!

You fail to realize that many people get great pleasure out of working on their homes or cars

 

But most do not. Hence the incredibel array of businesses to cater to us. There are far more garages and oil change places in a city than there are shops for do-it-at home hobbyist.

Yarby: I was giving examples that apply to me.

The point is, money allows people to not have to do things they don't want to do so that they can spend that time doing things they do want to do.

Have you ever lived in a fishing village? I spent several months in one on the east coast of Java in Indonesia. The men who owned their own boats didn't actually do much repair work; only those who worked for the corporate trawlers spent more than a couple of hours every morning working hard. The rest of the day was spent variously drinking, gambling and hanging out. The women did all the hard work like making nets, keeping the house in order and handling the finances.

I suppose the men handled the boat repairs, but I never saw them do much of that. As for house repairs a village can build a house from scratch in a few days, so that's not something that takes long anyway.

The influence of western capitalism makes people better educated and longer-lived, but it does take a lot of spare time in exchange.

Which side you stand on depends on how you value your leisure time and how much you value having an old age.

No offense Yarby, but only a person who knows nothing about Draginol's life would say they felt sorry for him.

"You fail to realize that many people get great pleasure out of working on their homes or cars."

In the purely economic sense it doesn't make sense to not divert all labor into specialization. But there are always other factors involved and economics is rarely the only one or most important one to people.

"the day was spent variously drinking, gambling and hanging out."

This is what people value over making money lots of times. To be honest. In the economic sense though, if the most amount of labor is to be accomplished, you should pay someone who is better at a job to do it, while you do the job you are best at. Again it is rarely the case that the most amount of labor be produced, or the best quality be applied. Efficiency is important though.

cacto,

Compared to "primitive" societies, I would tend to agree, but if you compare our information age society with early industrial age societies, I would strongly disagree. In a long ago article I compared/contrasted life for the working class in the modern age with that of urban life at the turn of the 20th century; the improvements we've made in working conditions, work hours in the week, and life expectancy are amazing. We actually HAVE a lot of free time, it's just that we choose to use it watching "Dancing with the Stars" instead of actually playing with our kids.

Have you ever lived in a fishing village? I spent several months in one on the east coast of Java in Indonesia. The men who owned their own boats didn't actually do much repair work; only those who worked for the corporate trawlers spent more than a couple of hours every morning working hard. The rest of the day was spent variously drinking, gambling and hanging out. The women did all the hard work like making nets, keeping the house in order and handling the finances. I suppose the men handled the boat repairs, but I never saw them do much of that. As for house repairs a village can build a house from scratch in a few days, so that's not something that takes long anyway. The influence of western capitalism makes people better educated and longer-lived, but it does take a lot of spare time in exchange. Which side you stand on depends on how you value your leisure time and how much you value having an old age.

Sigh.

Let me repeat carefully: I said the analogy you presented wasn't written by a business person.  I said nothing about the fishing village.

People have this false belief that successful business people work themselves to death and miss out on fun and enjoyment. Real successful business people are generally not the way you describe.

Even now, I suspect a good porton of the people here could live in an Indonesia fishing village if they chose to live in those conditions.

And most successful business people could retire and live in luxury by the time they hit 40 if they wanted to do so.  I could retire right now if I wanted to for instance. But I make computer games and desktop enhancements for a living working amongst interesting and excellent people and still get to spend immense time with my wife and kids doing very fun and interesting things with them.

"You fail to realize that many people get great pleasure out of working on their homes or cars." In the purely economic sense it doesn't make sense to not divert all labor into specialization. But there are always other factors involved and economics is rarely the only one or most important one to people. "the day was spent variously drinking, gambling and hanging out." This is what people value over making money lots of times. To be honest. In the economic sense though, if the most amount of labor is to be accomplished, you should pay someone who is better at a job to do it, while you do the job you are best at. Again it is rarely the case that the most amount of labor be produced, or the best quality be applied. Efficiency is important though.

Except this is rationalization at its worse because for every time they get together and drink with their friends while fixing the car or painting their house there are 10 instances where they are fixing their car in the freezing cold garage on the freezing cement floor or they're spending their weekends out in the hot sun painting their house by themselves.

Let's be real, it's not as if there's a special "secret" club here. Most of the time, people fixing their cars or fixing their houses are doing it because they can't afford not to and it's usually unpleasant, time consuming work.  And while there are probably people who just enjoy spending a good chunk of their summer vacations up on the roof fixing their gutters, I am willing to bet they're in the minority.  It's akin to when people moving to a new house trying to turn moving their stuff to the new house into some party where people end up bruised and furniture chipped rather than being able to afford having professionals move your stuff to the new house while you go to an actual REAL party with your friends and drink.

No, rather than fixing shingles on my roof on a 96 degree, 95% humidity day in July, I think I'd rather hire out that work and spend that time going hiking with my sons in the woods or going swimming with the family in the lake or flying to Manhattan for a romantic weekend with my wife. 

Maybe Brad should have used crayons, then some folks might "get it".

LOL.

Pass the red.

Sure. Having lived as close as it's possible for me to be native (I am, after all, a whitie foreigner) in both cultures I definitely prefer Australia.

It's just when I look at the available and traditional paths to wealth - the kinds of work where 10k a year in savings is a reasonable goal and not 1/3 or more of post-tax salary - all these jobs require 60+ hours a week. I want a better work/life balance than that.

So I'll give up a little wealth later for a little fun while I'm still healthy enough to really enjoy it.



Sure. But most conventional paths to 'success' involve working your arse off for 15-20 years and then relaxing. During that time there'll be plenty of 60+ hours weeks for your law firm/engineering firm/merchant bank/consultancy group/whatever. By the time you're finally a partner and cana take it easier - maybe even clock it back to 40 hours a week - you've hit middle age and your good looks and health aren't what they used to be.

For some, yes it is. for others, no it is not. Sucess is not a cookie cutter. We each achieve it in our own way.