Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Methane and other factors of green house production
Published on November 18, 2007 By Draginol In Politics

CO2 produced by humans is causing the recent increase in temperature is a hypothesis. But it has no evidence to support it. It's not even what one would label as a theory. It could be correct, it might not be correct.  I have about the same opinion of it as I do for the hypothesis of "intelligent design".  Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But there isn't evidence.  Given the movement's spotty record for yearly temperatures (it's actually gotten cooler since 1998 incidentally, not that you hear much about that little tidbit) it's hard to argue that it's firmly based on "science".  Theories are science and they make testable predictions. (see theory vs. hypothesis).

Methane is also a green house gas. It traps heat at over 20X the level of CO2.  Moreover, while CO2 in the atmosphere has gone up some since the start of the industrial revolution, the rise in methane has gone up vastly more in the past 50 years in particular.

But at the end of the day, the hypothesis remains: CO2 is a green house gas. Green house gases trap heat. More trapped heat will cause temperatures to rise. Temperatures have risen in the northern hemisphere since 1976 slightly. Therefore, it must be CO2.

Of course, temperatures in the southern hemisphere have not risen and the antarctic ice cap has grown. 

But I will grant that the northern hemisphere has definitely increased in temperature.  And I'm willing to also grant that humans are probably helping it a long.

Therefore, what should be done?

First, we have to decide whether global warming is a "bad thing".  The case really hasn't been made that it really is a "bad thing" (Al Gore's ridiculous arguments that the sea level will suddenly rise by a dozen feet or whatever notwithstanding).

Then, we have to decide what we would do about it.  Even if we removed every car off the road, it would make a trivial impact on worldwide CO2.  Humans only produce 14% of the CO2 that goes into the air each year.  And CO2 only accounts for a couple % of the green house effect. (this data is available on the global warming advocate websites btw, they don't dispute these facts).

The bottom line, there is really very little we can do to affect the situation other than largely eliminating all worldwide use of fossil fuels AND largely moving to a vegetarian diet (methane levels have gone up because the population of animals for meat is now several BILLION -- people don't like talking about this fact).

As a meat eater and someone who likes to use energy, I don't really want to give up my pork chops or my air conditioning in the Summer.

Talk about raising fuel standards or Kyoto accords or what have you are not serious discussions as they would have no impact.

Which is the problem with global warming as a religion. Because its adherents are generally ignorant of the details of it, they've simply been hammered with "the debate is over" mentra, they don't really understand the ramifications of their belief.  It's sort of like the person who believes that the old testament of the bible must be followed literally only to get ticked off when we start talking about Leviticus and stoning his wife for being out in public during certain times of the month. 

That is, if you believe that CO2 is the cause of global warming and that the CO2 in question is from humans then only deinustrializing most of the planet is going to cure that.  Getting rid of SUVs or switching to hydrogen based cars or solar power isn't going to have much impact unless it's done completely, worldwide and even then, the effect is going to be miniscule (especially as long as we have billions of methane producing livestock hanging around).


Comments (Page 2)
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on Nov 19, 2007
They turn gaz and liquid wastes into natural gaz used to warm the farm itself.


pig gas is methane. methane is a green house gas. burnng natural gas creates co2.
on Nov 20, 2007

 

I'm sorry, but they *have* created a pig farm where there is minimal CO2 emmission. They turn gaz and liquid wastes into natural gaz used to warm the farm itself.

QED. I think you only visited backward farms Draginol. You've declared that it's impossible for any industry to find ways to stop these emmissions simply because you don't even dare admiting the possibility that you may be wrong.

Can you link to that?  How do you turn waste into natural gas?  And, why are you heating a pig farm?  (Pigs produce an enormous amount of heat on their own).

I have heard of blue lagoon systems: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar05/pig0305.htm
They are pretty well used on PIG farms, but nowhere else.  Pig farms are not nearly as problematic as dairy and beef farms, and lets not even talk about poultry.

Anything that decomposes produces CO2.  They have used animal wastes as fertilizers, but is decomposes first (which gives off greenhouse gases).  They have come up with Lagoon systems, but that is a way to try and avoid ground water contamination.

I think you only visited backward farms Draginol.

What, you mean the ethical ones that don't confine all their animals to inside barns so that they can easily contain the wastes?  What about the ethical farms that believe in free range and ethical treatment of the animals?  How long do you think that waste sits around before the farmer gets to it?

What about the hobby farmer?  They do nothing but spread the wastes around and let them decompose.  How much does that type of animal waste produce in the way of greenhouse gases?

And, have they developed a way to keep the animals from passing gas (methane)?  Cows average 400 quarts of eructation per day (that's 400 quarts of methane burps).  Are we now going to put cows in bubbles to capture their methane?

I may not believe that "global warming" is real, but I at least have a firm grasp on what farms do to the environment.

 

 

on Nov 20, 2007
pig gas is methane. methane is a green house gas. burnng natural gas creates co2.


How does that cut CO2 emissions? Do you have a link to this pig farm?


http://www.qc.ec.gc.ca/dpe/Anglais/dpe_main_en.asp?innov_fiche_200409a

Here it is.

Off course, you have to consider that even if gaz is burned and release CO2 emmission in the process, their energy requirement will be lowered. Thu, even if some sort of pollution is created, it has served double duty rather than simply either burn to produce energy, or was expulsed out of pigs.

It is all about improving efficiency in our production in many ways.

I simply don't think it's "perfectly possible" which to me implies that you think it wouldn't be that difficult. There's a big gulf between what is possible and what is practical.


You make a very valid point. I am sorry, I have my best and my worst moments, and my outburst definetly was one of my worst.

However, if you consider what we though was absolutely impossible about 20 years ago compared to what we are able to achieve now, I can say that unless a general collapse of society, we can be hopeful that we will keep breaking new frontiers of impossibility.

I don't think you're a liberal psycho. But I do think you might be a bit narcisistic if you think that most of my response was about you specifically.


point taken, and will be reflected upon

Sure, if they can make money they will do it. So how do they make money?


The Carbon Credit market can do exactly that. The people who will find it more efficient for them to buy credits to those who thinks they can make a buck by greatly reducing their CO2 emmissions or simply absorbing the CO2 out of the atmosphere itself.

The market will find an eventual balance. And the governement will be able to slowly lower the cap as the industry gets more and more creative.

They are pretty well used on PIG farms, but nowhere else. Pig farms are not nearly as problematic as dairy and beef farms, and lets not even talk about poultry.


QFT. However, if the industry is given incentive to invent ways to either reduce animal emissions, it is a distinct possibility that they can find a way. Maybe create biospheres.. I don't know.

But they won't lift a finger (except the theorical peoples who wants to feel good about it) if they don't have a reason to move their asses about it.

I may not believe that "global warming" is real, but I at least have a firm grasp on what farms do to the environment.


And aren't you interested in forcing the farmers to pollute less, but not trough simple sanctions.
on Nov 20, 2007
However, if you consider what we though was absolutely impossible about 20 years ago compared to what we are able to achieve now, I can say that unless a general collapse of society, we can be hopeful that we will keep breaking new frontiers of impossibility.


this can be said in any 20 year period.
on Nov 21, 2007

QFT. However, if the industry is given incentive to invent ways to either reduce animal emissions, it is a distinct possibility that they can find a way. Maybe create biospheres.. I don't know.

But they won't lift a finger (except the theorical peoples who wants to feel good about it) if they don't have a reason to move their asses about it.

An easier solution would be to eat less meat.  Where does almost 1/3 of the CO2 emissions come from?  And, why is it growing at the same rate as our increase in animal consumption?

And aren't you interested in forcing the farmers to pollute less, but not trough simple sanctions

I am more interested in ethical farming.  If we had ethical farming, meat production would be on a smaller scale, and this whole argument would be a moot point.

The problem is that will not happen, and neither will having farmers spend more money to produce the meat.  People won't pay more for the end product, so how are farmers going to afford putting in new systems.  The factory farms already overcrowd and treat the animals horribly, what will happen if they have to make up for losses they incur by having to put in new equipment?

A statistic for you, in the US, the average person eats 22 pounds of meat more than they did in 1970.  That is, with an estimate population of 301,000,000 people in the US) 6,622,000,000 pounds of meat a year more that has to be produced (on top of the amount needed for the increase in population).  An average cow is 1,300 lbs, but less than 1/2 of it is meat.  We'll go with 1/2 as an average, which is 650 lbs.  So, that means that we have to raise 10,187,692 more cows (or equivalent animals) to keep up with the current "need", not including the extras needed to cover the population growth.

So, "who" is really to blame here?  It's not just the farmers

on Nov 21, 2007
The problem is that will not happen, and neither will having farmers spend more money to produce the meat. People won't pay more for the end product, so how are farmers going to afford putting in new systems.


well, if we somehow discourage meat farms in some ways or other (like carbon emmission cap penalties), the end product will cost more, and thu lowering the demand.

Hmm.. wait a second. I think they have created a technology that allowed, from a sample of skin, to grow in laboratory large amount of skins. Couldn't we do the same with cow meat? The actual animals would be breeded in the best situation, which favor the quality of the meat, and then we could collect samples of them and grow steaks in laboratory... Ye know, simply growing the tissu...

*sigh*, I'm too much of a dreamer.

Well, still. I am sure if we make the meat cost more, there will be less demand, and we could change America's diet to a meat-less (not meatless) one.
on Nov 21, 2007

Hmm.. wait a second. I think they have created a technology that allowed, from a sample of skin, to grow in laboratory large amount of skins. Couldn't we do the same with cow meat? The actual animals would be breeded in the best situation, which favor the quality of the meat, and then we could collect samples of them and grow steaks in laboratory... Ye know, simply growing the tissu...

all I can say to that is EWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwww!  That is a really bad visual.

on Nov 21, 2007
Hmm.. wait a second. I think they have created a technology that allowed, from a sample of skin, to grow in laboratory large amount of skins. Couldn't we do the same with cow meat?


Isnt that called Soylent green?
on Nov 21, 2007
Isnt that called Soylent green?


Wash..


Well.. originally, the idea behind the technology is to create skin to graf on greatly burned peoples. (I think they managed to create artificial organs too with home-grown tissues, but only simples ones)

But I wonder if the technology could be twitched in order to create meat without having to go trough the process of "animal". You know, nutrient --> meat directly.

Ye know.. growing the tissue of meat itself. You could make an art out of it, maybe even trim out the fat, or however you want your steak.
on Nov 21, 2007
Wash..


Lost in translation - Explain please?
on Nov 21, 2007
Lost in translation - Explain please?


oh.. in french, it's a expression of disgust.
on Nov 21, 2007
oh.. in french, it's a expression of disgust.


Quebecois, peut etre. None that I have ever run into. But thanks for the explanantion.
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