You don't think that the media isn't going to catch the flip-flop and start hammering on it?

The best part about that specific bit was that it would, at best, provide a weak attack for the Bush campaign. During the debates, I noticed something, the old "flip flop" and declaring one a "denigrater of coalition allies" attacks aren't going to work anymore, 'cause Kerry is actually there defending himself strongly while making Bush flounder. Kerry accomplished more in that debate then he has in the last year.

Kerry accomplished more in that debate then he has in the last year.

Heck, why stop there...why not go for the last twenty years.

"you can be certain but still be wrong".

I agree.

Draginol, spoken like a true eclectic!

Deference

I think you’re in for a big let down.

Yes, I think Kerry did a good job at being force full and confident, what would you expect from the Yale debate team President.

But as I gave an example (that GX thankfully transferred to this post), Kerry is going to be torn apart for the words he said, and not the way he said it.

I don't have a complete list yet, but even this early in the day it is becoming very long. Kerry said multiple things that sounds forceful last night, but is going to bring him down. Good examples are some of the following:

1. The US needs to pass a "World Test" for us to use force.

2. Saddam was not a Threat, and then says again Saddam was a Threat.

3. I will send Nuclear Fuel to Iran and test them for them. (Didn't we try that with N. Korea and the they still built their nukes?)

4. Lets go into Sudan unilaterally while going into Iraq with the world.

5. We needed to use our Allies to talk to Saddam for him to disarm, but lets not use our Allies (and North Korea’s) to get North Korea to get them to hand over their WMD.

6. I will secure all to Russia's nuclear material in four years. (I think Russia will have something to say about that).

7. Claiming that he never called Bush a liar, but have multiple time.http://www.rnc.org/RNCResearch/Read.aspx?ID=4772

Kerry and the DNC are releasing an ad attacking Bush's Ummms, and delays on answering questions. But Bush and RNC are going to release Kerry's own "forceful" statements against him.

That's My Two Cents

PS: That’s only the things I seen myself last night. I know the pros are going to find more.

Reply #47 By: Deference - 10/1/2004 12:55:29 PM You don't think that the media isn't going to catch the flip-flop and start hammering on it? The best part about that specific bit was that it would, at best, provide a weak attack for the Bush campaign. During the debates, I noticed something, the old "flip flop" and declaring one a "denigrater of coalition allies" attacks aren't going to work anymore, 'cause Kerry is actually there defending himself strongly while making Bush flounder. Kerry accomplished more in that debate then he has in the last year.

Just *maybe* you should go read this link. Seems not everyone is as optimistic as you seem to be.
Link

This is in addition to my list above.

8. Kerry criticizes Bush for not equipping and training Iraq's security forces, but then criticizes Bush for shifting 16 Billion to equip and train them.

9. Kerry criticizes Bush for not being flexible, and then criticizes Brush for being flexible by shifting money.

More to come.

I think kerry's best stance was that Bush is in fact responsible for the situation in North Korea. Bush turned his shoulder to them for some time, and in that time they took the supplies and used them to build nuclear weapons.

Reply #53 By: sandy2 - 10/1/2004 2:06:09 PM I think kerry's best stance was that Bush is in fact responsible for the situation in North Korea. Bush turned his shoulder to them for some time, and in that time they took the supplies and used them to build nuclear weapons

What a crock. What is the US to be? The world's watchdog?

What a crock. What is the US to be? The world's watchdog?

Are you kidding?  The U.S. has been the world's watchdog for quite some time.  Remember Vietnam?

I think Kerry handled this debate the way he should have.  There are clear differences between them and that is what he had to take care of.  There is still a long road ahead for both candidates.

one thing that struck me, is with Kerry's vast debating abilites (I dare not call him a master debator, oh damn!) I had expected more from him.

Sandy2

If you think we can or could have done anything militarily about N. Korea you are dreaming. China would enact their defense treaty with N. Korea. I think China is really just waiting for us to do this.

Now Kim Ill on the diplomatic side basically wants to extort food, money and nuclear material out of the US in direct talks. Even after Clinton walked into that treaty, Kim Ill continued to research their nuke program (The UN has confirmed that). Just because you have a two hundred dollar cameras looking at a reactor, does not mean they can't just research less where or just plug in a film. North Korea is playing us like a rope a dope on one on one talks, because they know we can't do any military actions due to China.

By adding other countries, more leverage can be used. President Bush correctly said China is the way to NK. Kerry is showing that he does not know international politics.

That's My Two Cents

You know what really bugs me? The right calls the UN a burden, a dead weight group, a waste, but then they feel free to utilize the UN's information when it helps their case, and even in cases where it doesn't like this one. They resort to an organization they don't respect because they know they can't win, because Bush is the reason North Korea has its weapons and Bush is the reason we find ourselves in this situation.

Those were some of the near hitches I saw last night, but I don't believe any are going to prove to be a hurdle for Kerry. Let's watch the polls this week and the final election. I predict the Bush "bounce" gone, and the incumbent not reaching the critical 50% mark in any major poll. The appearance last night from Bush was enough to stop any momentum Bush may have had. I think he's sunk.

Reply #58 By: sandy2 - 10/1/2004 2:31:02 PM You know what really bugs me? The right calls the UN a burden, a dead weight group, a waste, but then they feel free to utilize the UN's information when it helps their case, and even in cases where it doesn't like this one. They resort to an organization they don't respect because they know they can't win, because Bush is the reason North Korea has its weapons and Bush is the reason we find ourselves in this situation

You know what???? Facts are just that, Facts. Where they come from is irelevant>

Everyone I am seeing that feels moved one way or the other by last nights performances already had their mind made up. The closest thing I have seen to the admission of a changed vote is the guy who was once gonna vote against Bush, but after last night he's decided to vote for Kerry... ...

Unless the debate hit the wishy washy voters hard, I wouldn't expect much of a change in the polls. Frankly if what happened last night could excite you enough to change your vote, then a warm breeze would be as good for you as viagra...