How to make a Kerry voter into a Bush voter

A conversation with my dad

Published on November 1, 2004 By Draginol In Personal Relationships

I talked to my dad today and he was leaning towards Kerry. He's a really smart guy. One of the smartest people I know. But he doesn't follow politics that much, he's very busy doing other things. So he gets his info from the mainstream media which has done a pretty good job convincing him that Bush is a bad guy.

So what were his issues and how did I counter act them?

Outsourcing. If you're really worried about out-sourcing then don't vote for the candidate whose party and policies have largely created it -- The Democrats and their supporters.

When you think of two groups that make the cost of doing business in America higher you think Unions and Lawyers. And who do they support? Kerry. And it's Kerry and his kind that not only oppose legal reform but are ones pushing for increasing minimum wage, putting more regulations on business, otherwise making it less attractive to do business in America.

In 10 years of running a small business, I've paid over half a million dollars in legal costs in frivolous lawsuits. If there had been a simple "loser pays" type reform none of those lawsuits would have ever happened. Kerry opposes that kind of thing. And when a tiny company like ours is paying those kinds of legal expenses, you can only imagine the expenses larger companies pay. Lawsuits are really out of control in this country. And it makes it harder to run a business here.

How much expense or hassle does it take before a company says "To hell with it, let's just move the operation to Mexico" or "Let's just outsource that department to India."

And do the unions and the lawyers and the politicians who push these policies take any responsibility what happens? No. they have the audacity to turn around and blame the Republicans!

Abortion. The next President may pick some of the supreme court justices. My dad doesn't want abortion to be illegal. But that's not how it works. Even if somehow Bush managed to get right wing conservative judges appointed (which is unlikely). But let's say he did, if Roe vs. Wade got overturned it would merely allow the states to decide through their legally elected representatives.

I'm pro-choice but it rankles me that some judge decided that abortion should be legal. We're a democracy. The will of the people should be paramount. Judges shouldn't be making laws, only interpreting the ones that exist. Roe vs. Wade is bad constitutional law. But I don't think Roe vs. Wade will be overturned regardless.

What I do worry about is more activist judges. Ones who think they should be able to legislate from the bench. Liberal judges tend to do that. Conservative judges tend not to. Hence I prefer Bush to Kerry on this. I'd rather have my elected officials writing laws than an unelected judge. Hence my support for Bush.

War in Iraq. Iraq seems to be quite a mess - at least if you listen to the media. But how bad is it really? The wonderful UN only recently managed to get elections scheduled in Bosnia after what? 9 years? Meanwhile, less than 2 years after the invasion of Iraq we're getting ready to hold democratic elections there. Not bad. Especially considering the size and location of Iraq.

And while we have lost 1,200 troops there, that is actually amazingly low in real numbers. Fewer than died on September 11th.

But let's say you think Iraq is a mess. Is Kerry the answer? He's the one complaining that we needed more troops there but at the same time believes we're stretched too thin as is. Well, which is it?

The simple question to ask is this: If you think Iraq is a mess, would you vote for Jimmy Carter if he were running? No? Then why vote for a man who is even more anti-military, more dove-ish than Carter ever was? Kerry's campaign rhetoric may sound hawkish but that belies his entire career starting with his anti-war activities, his denouncements of US soldiers in Vietnam, his voting against every Cold War effort during the Reagan period, and even voting against liberating Kuwait even after the UN had formally authorized force to free Kuwait. Clearly there is no "global test" that will satisfy a dove like Kerry.

Compared to Kerry, Jimmy Carter is a war hawk. Do you want someone like that running the war on terror? A man whose goal is to put terrorism back to a "nuisance"?

So those were the 3 points I hammered home to my dad. I did talk about other things such as the causes of the recession (dot-com bubble finally burst coupled by the 9/11 attacks -- remember the US being basically shut down for that whole month? That sunk a ton of marginal companies who then lay off people).

It may not convince a die hard Kerry supporter or someone who is a Bush hater, but for that undecided voter, it worked on my dad who was leaning Kerry.

Comments (Page 1)

SSG Geezer

on Nov 01, 2004

Common sense is a good tool if the recipient is open to it. Hope your dad does the right thing tomorrow. A little late for him to help convert his friends though.

real foreigner with foreign vi

on Nov 01, 2004

I'll clear it up. I'm not anti-American. And if you think non_Americans should stay out of American politics, well tell that to whoever is responsible for entering Iraq.

People keep saying how Bush is the man to clean up Iraq, that Kerry is a peacenik.
Sure Bosnia took 9 years, but everyone knew the election was going to be a success for the most prat. The same can't be said of Iraq. no one, bar the second-term hungry Bush and the APPOINTED Iraqi government thinks it would run without a glitch.

Another thing, Bosnia was a typical Balkan ethnic mess that was bound to happen. Iraq was a mess CREATED by Bush, through bad planning and bad PR, plus the lack of credible world support. I mean, there were weapon inspections on the gound, why rush to believe intelligence by people rarely on the ground and being subjective by nature?

So, the argument is simple, do you think the man who created the mess and refuse to acknowledge that fact can realistically fix things. It's like repairing something with your eyes closed.

Your war on terror did not start on 9/11/2001. It would be your largest error to fight it based on that perception

Champas Socialist

on Nov 01, 2004

I'm what you would describe as a Bush hater and I would say this is the most insightful anti-Kerry/pro-Bush set of arguments I've seen, although some arguments from the Libertarians are quite good. This article is a rarity. Rather than shouting down the Left or insulting the, like most of your sympathisers, you have come up with some reasoned arguments and evidence. I still did not find it convincing enough to outweigh the points in favour of Kerry, but that will not surprise you I am sure.

Draginol

on Nov 01, 2004

Afghanistan, which has never had an election of any kind, just had a very solid election.

Bush's track record on democratization is pretty good.

Volunteer State

on Nov 01, 2004

Osama bin Laden lives. He has threatened terrorist attacks on any Red State. Will you make peace with this killer? Your vote makes this decision.

Half of this nation supports our President. Yet, half wish "For Peace in our time." A noble ambition but it did not work for Neville Chamberlain it will not work today. Peace is earned with sacrifice. You cannot negotiate with Osama bin Laden. He must die or be captured.

Give in to Osama bin Laden and some day he may tell you when to rise each day, when to pray, and what you will think. Have the terrorists’ insurgents that kill our soldiers in Iraq threatened our nation on our soil? No, they do not have the men, the material, the strategy, or the funding.

Osama bin Laden evaded our military not because of out sourcing but because he is a superior opponent with the funding and resources to evade the most sophisticated technological fighting force in history. Hitler and Saddam Hussein abused drugs and alcohol. Both were megalomaniacs with psychotic delusions. It took five years to defeat Hitler and over a year to find Saddam. Osama bin Laden does not have these vices and he is not insane. He is just a killer.

This is a World War. It is not Vietnam. We must finish the liberation and restoration of Iraq. Our Military Forces want President Bush to see this through to the end. This is their choice. Will you deny them? Those that have given their life deserve this hard fought peace. And yet what is your reply? Are you on the front line? Your vote must reflect our nations support of winning this War. We cannot and must not change our Commander in Chief.

We should respect the wishes of those that are on the front line. Do the right thing finish and this War. Let those who are fighting and dying have their say. Your vote is your voice.

Daiwa

on Nov 01, 2004

An amazing thing.

I'm sitting here watching Bill O'Reilly's interview with Bush that took place prior to the first debate. Bush had no foreknowledge of the questions & handled them with aplomb & confidence, even tough ones about "Mission Accomplished" and the "divider vs. uniter" question. Had Bush been anywhere close to as effective in the first debate, there'd be very little doubt about who would win tomorrow.

Cheers,
Daiwa

messybuu

on Nov 02, 2004

About the Supreme Court thing... Wasn't the most liberal justice appointed by Eisenhower, who didn't intend to appoint a liberal justice to the court? That's why it doesn't bother me who elects the justices, since they'll do their own thing when they get there (or maybe that should bother me).

couchman

on Nov 02, 2004

congrads Drag.....good read...and I agree....although I think you could have added that Kerry intends...if elected...god help us...to persue the same insane policy with Iran that the duo of Clinton/Carter did with North Korea...supplying them nuclear fuel in return for a flimsy piece of paper pledging they wont continue a nuclear weapons program...as we have seen that didnt work with North Korea...and it wont work with Iran which is more dangerous than North Korea....whats amazing is when I bring this point up with people leaning towards Kerry (dem or otherwise) they cant seem to acknowledge their choice's ridiculous plan....it really is true...De'Nile isnt just a river in Egypt.

Poseidon88

on Nov 02, 2004

Some counterpoints:

The truth is that the lion's share of jobs in this country are created by large corporations, not small businesses. And the biggest incentive these large companies have for moving jobs overseas is that they are allowed to defer taxes on any money they save by doing so. This is a huge loophole that needs to be closed. Instead, Bush wants to focus on tort reform for large class-action suits, which isn't a completely bad idea since the only people who ever make significant money off such suits are the lawyers that organize them. But unless you own a large corporation, I don't see how that will help you cut your costs on frivolous law suits.

Roe vs. Wade is a touchy subject, but it comes down to whether you believe that abortion is a basic right, and whether it should be protected by the constitution. The country is split almost 50-50 on this one, and I agree that there probably won't be any movement either way (at least, I hope not). What does bother me is Bush's insistance that marriage should be defined in the constitution as a union between a man and a woman. If such a bill were to pass, it would be the first time since prohibition that a constitutional amendment put limits on our rights instead of granting new ones. I still have yet to hear any good explanation why we need such an amendment that doesn't involve religious belief, or some combination of fear and hatred, and that's a road I don't want to see us go down.

The actual number of American military lives lost in Iraq has exceeded 7,000. The numbers the military reports to the media are "active combat losses." This only counts people who are killed during action inside a "designated combat area." People killed outside of these designated areas, or while on their way to or from those areas, are not considered combat losses by military definition. The number of people who have needed to be evacuated for medical reasons is well over 20,000. Of course, those reasons can range anywhere from a bad case of the flu to one or more lost limbs or serious burns, but when you see the actual numbers, you start to realize the scale of what's going on. Add to this the fact that active combat is still taking place in parts of Afghanistan, and our military is stretched extremely thin, with no immediate relief in sight. We're certainly not going to get any help from the UN after Bush told them where to stick it. Now I hear him starting to talk about the threats in Iran and North Korea, and I fear what I suspect is the completion of that thought. Where are the troops going to come from? We've already got a Stop-Loss order in effect that is keeping troops who have completed their obligations from being discharged. Tours have been extended well beyond what the troops were promised, and once they get home they're turned around and sent right back. All this from a man who claims he has nothing but respect for our troops.

I don't hate Bush. I think that he's actually a pretty decent guy. But I think he makes some bad decisions, and I think he's unwilling to listen to anyone that disagrees with him, and that makes me uncomfortable having him in the Oval Office.

T_Bone4Justice

on Nov 02, 2004

"I don't hate Bush. I think that he's actually a pretty decent guy. But I think he makes some bad decisions, and I think he's unwilling to listen to anyone that disagrees with him, and that makes me uncomfortable having him in the Oval Office."

Good summation of why I and many others won't vote for Bush either...

COL Gene

on Nov 02, 2004

Lets look at your three areas.

Outsourcing:

The major reason why costs are higher in the U.S. is NOT because of legal issues. Our econimic structure is on a footing that has higher costs for labor and the cost to live in America. It is a mature economy and as other nations develop, costs of productuion in those countries increase. We need policies that will help American companies offset some of teh labor cost differences. We need equal access to foreign mankets. We need to stop rewarding companies with tax breaks when they move production outside the U.S.

Abortion:

We need to do more top prevent unwanted children. Bush is not doing enough to help provide the means to accomplish that goal. If we outlaw abortion, it will go underground not stop. Than we have another problem to deal with. We need to promote ALL ther options to prevent unwanted children and alternatives, other than abortion, like adoption to insure even unwanted children are given the opportunity of life. The Bush approach will not work!

The Iraq war was first, the wrong chioce to inhance our security. We were not threatened by Saddam, not even if he had the WMD. Dictators will not attack major powers because to do so would end their power. We than did not properly prepare or staff the war. That has caussed the security problems and is responsible for American deaths and the fact that the people of Iraq and the World oppose our actions. The Iraq War has not improved our security it has made us less safe!

You forgot our Deficit, lack of creating jobs for the 5 million workers that came into gthe work force since Bush took office etc.

The only way to make a Kerry Voter into a Bush voter is to completely change Bush and his policies!

Cosmic Fox

on Nov 02, 2004

Outsourcing? This is a democrat created problem?

Please can someone tell me where this information comes from? This President and the Republican party has been encouraging outsourcing with this stupid free trade policy. This is a fact anyone can find for themselves quite easily. Clinton made a mistake with NAFTA but Bush has taken that little mistake and expanded on it creating the worse vacuum of job outsourcing in history. Tell me why Bush is the first sitting president in 70 years with a negative loss in jobs? Is this due to the democrats?

I do not support either party I am supporting the only good man on the ticket who will take care of our country and take it back from the Corporations that Bush is in bed with.

Iraq War was nothing more then a way to take control of the oil. Look at who owns more middle east oil then anyone? Go ahead it is all there BUSH FAMILY! Kerry is a rich guy but the difference between them is plain to see. One guy wants to help his contribitors the other wants to help America as he has stood by her for over 30 years. We are not safer due to our reckless invasion of IRAQ in fact we are a recuriting billboard for terrorist. Terrorist recruitment has gone up 1000% since Bush took his eye of terror and invaded Iraq.

Bush is a looser and today he will be sent back to Texas where he can finally go back to drinking and doing cocaine!

Sorry I have no respect for a con artist as he clearly is!

I love this stuff. Long live JoeUser.com website!! NeoTech Network http://www.neotechgaming.com for gaming news with general discussion topics.

JillUser

on Nov 02, 2004

Sorry I have no respect for a con artist as he clearly is!

Then you shouldn't be voting at all.

COL Gene

on Nov 02, 2004

You got it. If George W. is a looser today, America is the WINNER. If George W. wins today, America is the LOOSER!

Draginol

on Nov 02, 2004

Gosh Col Gene and Desert Fox, I wasn't aware you ran corporations. Oh wait, you don't. But I do. I think I may know a little bit more on this than you do and what causes labor costs to increase.

Incidentally, most new jobs are created by small businesses. Not large corporations.

Anyone who thinks that legal costs and unions aren't major elements of why it costs so much to do business in the United States needs to get their head out of the sand.

I won't bother responding to the Michael Moore theories, sorry but the lunatic fringe elements of either side aren't moveable. I focus on talking to people who are moveable one way or the other.

As for the deficit, I don't like the deficit either but when you have a recession, you have to do somethign about it and lowering taxes is the tried and true way to combat that. It's about the only thing the federal government can do about it. And that creates deficits.

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