Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.

After reading the book One Second After we had an interesting discussion over on JoeUser about the subject.

One user said that humans had adapted and were far too enlightened today to revert to violence and mayhem in the absence of our modern conveniences.

So let’s walk through the EMP scenario:

Day 1: July Year 200x

5 container ships in the gulf of Mexico fire medium range SCUD missiles high into the atmosphere until it reaches far above Kansas and other states.  On board are 45KT nuclear warhead.  It explodes creating EMP that takes out all of the integrated circuits in the United States.

That means anything electronic that hasn’t been hardened is going to be ruined.  That means your computers, TVs, cars, home electronics, breaker box, phones, radios, cell phones. It also means the power companies, their generators, the backup generators at hospitals, nursing homes, etc.

All of the farms and their harvesting equipment is dead. The trucks that move food to the cities are ruined. The trains that move freight around the country are inoperable.

Every airplane flying crashes. All planes on the down are ruined.

The only thing working are US conventional forces that happened to be hardened against EMP (which means quite a few of them).  Some cars stored in underground parking garages would probably work depending on the proximity. 

There’s no fall out. Nobody dies from the attack directly.

Day 2:

With power out people’s fridges are DOA.  With no working cars, people don’t go to work. In the country and in the suburbs, people take the food out of their refrigerators and freezers before it “goes bad” and have BBQs. It’s a fun time.

People who were driving somewhere are mostly able to make it to town. A few people die of heat stroke on their journeys. In the deep south, particularly Florida, there are a number of deaths due to the heat since air conditioning is out.

In the cities, looting begins quite quickly. The police can’t do much since they’re on foot or on horse.

We know this sort of thing because we have seen what happens during extended power outages. Of course, in those cases cars, cell phones, and other crucial devices still worked but there was still massive looting in the large cities.

Day 3:

Local agencies really don’t know what’s going on since there is no communication. No cell phones. No radio. No land lines. The grid is gone.  There are spare parts but no where near enough to fix it all and because of the nature of the electrical grid, all the holes have to be plugged for the juice to flow again.  And even if they had enough parts, how do they transport them? No trucks. No cars. 

International relief from Japan, China, Canada (though most of Canada is taken out too), Mexico, Europe begins but it’ll be slow going. Food shipments can reach the coast in a couple of days but getting it inland will be a major problem as the vehicles will have to be transported in along with parts to try to get the railroads working again (along with teams to get dead trains off the rails).

In the subs, the party is over. It ain’t funny now.  People are finishing off what was in their refrigerator. Most people still have some food in the cupboard.

Stores start rationing their supplies. People are still using money (at least, those who keep cash). A bottle of water is $20.  How much cash do you keep in your house?

In the cities, riots have broken out with widespread destruction. Being July, it’s hot and dry. Fires from the riots start to spread.

End of Week 1:

By now, most people in the subs have run out of food they would normally remotely consider eating. Looting at the local Walmart and grocery stores begins as people simply take what they need.

Remember, people aren’t hearing anything from the authorities. There are no working TVs. No working radios. The handful of police are walking in the subs. 

If you live in the suburbs, take a close look around. How would the police reasonably patrol your city without cars?

Meanwhile, people in nursing homes have started dying enmasse. Without refrigeration drugs quickly go bad. Anyone requiring help breathing or anything else has already died.

People with type 1 diabetes are starting to see the writing on the wall.

Meanwhile, the first container ships of relief have reached San Francisco, Seattle, LA, San Diego, Houston, Miami, Boston, NY, Washington, Raleigh. Lots of food, medicine, some parts, lots of vehicles.

Unfortunately most of those cities are in utter pandemonium. In the south, tens of thousands have already died from heat.  In 2003, when there was a heat wave in France, 14800 people died. They didn’t lose power, they just didn’t have air conditioning.  In Florida, the death toll is skyrocketing quickly. Same in most of the other southern states.

End of Week 2:

People are starting to die of dysentery from eating bad food, drinking bad water. Many have left the suburbs to head to rural areas where they think there is food (they’re wrong, harvest won’t happen for months, industrialized food processing involves a lot of transportation between the farms and the slaughter houses).

The typical American family, now out of food and with no access to clean water is starting to get pretty desperate.

What? Only 2 weeks? How much food do you have in your house right now? Go check. I’ll wait….

Okay back? So how much is in your pantry? How long would it last you? If you knew at the start, you might have rationed it better. But you didn’t. 

Millions of Americans are wishing they had put those steaks and hamburgers and hotdogs in their basements in the cooler temperatures. Others are wishing they had salted them heavily and cooked them well done to store for the long haul.

In the cities on the coast, power is restored via backup generators relatively close to shore. However, within 10 miles from the harbor, death is everywhere.  Don’t agree?

Ever been to San Francisco? LA? New York City? 14 days have passed. Where would you have gone? The smart ones, who are able to, would have found their way to the harbors and waited for air lifts of food and such. But most would probably not think about that.

Meanwhile, armed thugs are starting to systematically go through every building and house looking and taking what they need.

End of Week 3

Starvation is starting to become a real problem. If your local law enforcement had a clue, they had already gotten themselves and helpful citizens around to the stores to gather up supplies to start rationing it.

At this point, martial law has been declared by any competent city government.  Some cities decide that, for the public good of course, that all community food will be collected and distributed equally to everyone. In other places, large armed mobs are violently taking what is needed to survive.

Are you a survivalist? Got all your supplies right? Got MREs in the basement. You have an AK47 that you managed to get quietly at a gun show. Your kids know how to use the two shot guns. You’ve been prepared for this day right?  Great. You’re about to die.

You see, you might be able to keep a few people away. But word got around that you have supplies because you’re that guy who everyone knew was expecting to “bug out” one day when the government and black helicopters came.  You might be able to take out a few people but 200+ Nope. You’re going to take a lot of them out but they’re going to come in, kill you, your family, and your supplies.

What? Don’t agree? People won’t do that? Again: Other than on the coast (in some major cities near harbors anyway) you’ve heard and seen nothing from the government other than the occasional Black Hawk flying around. No TV. No phones. No radios. 

A few people have managed to dig up old HAM radios and they are getting distant broadcasts of reassurance but it’s clear that nothing’s coming any time soon if you live significantly inland, especially if you don’t live in a densely populated area.

It’s triage at this point and the rural and suburbs areas are simply too spread out. Unfortunately, in the cities, fires have consumed much of them. Anyone strong enough to get out of there has which further distributes the population.

A few older cars start showing up again on the roads as collectables and just old junkers are fixed up and are able to drive because they didn’t have electronics in them.

End of the first month:

A network of outposts are re-established in most large and medium sized cities. Medium sized cities are faring a bit better. Kalamazoo Michigan, Santa Cruz California, and other cities of this kind are doing okay now as convoys are starting to show up.

Really large cities away from the coast are dead at this point.  Sorry Omaha, there’s nobody home anymore.

The Second Month:

Now is when the death toll really starts to go up.  First, you have about 5% of the population that was on medication to control their mental states. This is now gone.  They will mostly die off this month or take out a few others in the process.

Nearly everyone with Type 1 diabetes has died.

Virtually who requires assisted care at this point has died.

Millions of children under 2 have died. Why? Do you have any children? If you’re not nursing them, how are you feeding them at this point?

There are not many domesticated dogs left that haven’t been freed by owners.

The number of deer left that are near people has diminished to the point of being difficult to find. Same with geese, ground hogs, rabbits, etc.

Most cities of any decent size now have an outpost re-established with convoys of food now arriving. However, it’s starting to become a real problem because, well it turns out that the US and Canada supply a significant chunk of the world’s food. 47% of the world’s Soy beans are produced in the United States. 86% of the world’s corn. The bulk of the world’s wheat. 

It’s during this second month that the food shipments to the United States are going to start to dry up as hunger starts to become a significant problem in China, Japan, and other countries that have to import food. The US and Canada make up 20% of the world’s food exports and if you count only basic foods the percentage nearly doubles. 

The world has its first universal consensus: Oh shit.

It’s at about this time that those who were celebrating in the streets about the downfall of the great satan are starting to get the first thought that yes, they’re going to die too. North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, and many other countries are about to see starvation on a level that has never been seen before.

By contrast, Europe is doing okay. Not great. But okay. Their economies are in ruins but they’re not going to die enmasse. 

In Japan, where starvation is a serious concern, they and Korea have enough money to pay top dollar for the dwindling import food supply. Russia, unfortunately, is about to have a very rough year.

Needless to say, the food aid shipments to the United States are starting to dwindle. Western Europe, particularly Great Britain, Spain, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Netherlands are still sending food shipments.

If you’re on the East coast in a secure area, you’re in good shape.  If you’re on the west coast, most of you are going to die.

Third Month:

The population of the United States is starting to take on the same appearance it did in 1909.

Here is what it looked like in the year 2000.

8% of the poulation was over 70.  Nearly all of them have died.

3% of the population is under 4.  Nearly all of them have died.

Urban populations of the United States have had staggering death tolls, particularly those not near the coasts.

Anyone requiring medication that needed to be refrigerated in order to live (anti-rejection drugs, insulin, various heart medications, for instance) has died. Easily 10% of the population on top of the above.

Around 20% of the population has starved.

Another 10% in the south who are living in places that were uninhabitable without modern technology have died.  Think LA is nice? Imagine it without water.  Any water.

In fact, if you live in California, take a look around. Where does your water come from?  Most of the population of Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and parts of Utah have died.

Power is starting to get restored due to generators and the government now had a decent supply of cars. Fixing the grid has become a priority.

While heat has killed millions in the south, we’re now getting near November. It’s starting to get cold.

The fourth month

I tell people who come and interview that Michigan’s southern part is about the same latitude as Northern California.  Winters in the upper part of the United States and lower Canada aren’t that bad – if you have heat.

But we don’t have heat.  Natural gas has to be pumped and pumped through a huge network across the country.  When power goes out, even for a few days, a lot of infrastructure falls apart.  New York’s subways, for example are gone.  Much of Chicago has flooded too.  Those who have enough propane will be okay, for awhile (at least until armed thugs come and take it).

By this point, restoring natural gas is not going to be a simple matter of restoring power.  Ever wondered how natural gas gets to your house?  It’s all repairable but it will take time and unfortunately, a lot of that expertise in people has died or is otherwise unavailable. That means bringing people in which will take more time.

If you live in northern states at this point, and you haven’t starved to death, you’re probably going to start dying of exposure.

But that’s a gift compared to what people still struggling to make it in warmer areas as we get reintroduced to cholera, TB, and diarrhea become major problems.

In fact, in 1900 the #1 cause of death in the United States was pneumonia. The #3 was diarrhea. That’s right. The runs killed more Americans than Heart disease, cancer, strokes, etc.  And this November, it returns from retirement as people, without proper sanitation, start to die off from all kinds of things that were previously unheard of.

In fact, as November closes, the United States has reverted to a third world country. No, that’s not fair. Third world countries usually have electricity and their inhabitants usually know how to start a fire.  Do you know how to start a fire without matches and such? Remember watching Survivor and laughing at them? They were in pretty good conditions to get a fire going.  You, by contrast, are wet, cold, weakened, and not sure if it’s even a good idea to start a fire because, well, what are you going to do with it? There’s little food.

On the west coast, food shipments have dropped to a trickle.  LA, Seattle, San Fran, it’s not a fun time there now.

One Year later

The grid is re-established in the midwest, the east coast, and much of the south.  It’s partially re-established on the west coast thanks to help from South Korea, China, and Japan. Thanks guys. We appreciate it even if most of us are dead.

So what’s the death toll?  Conservatively, you’re looking at 40% of the population of the US and Canada has died. That’s probably a best case scenario if food and equipment shipments from the rest of the world come in quickly.

A smart (well not really smart because the states that sponsor terrorists have died off due to the unintended consequences) terrorist would have also zinged Japan, South Korea, the Chinese east coast, and western Europe. If that happened, you would be looking far higher deaths everywhere as there would be no relief coming in.

The population of the United States today is over 300 million people.  In 1900 it was 76 million. The biggest reason for the increase isn’t due to birth rate but rather the massive decline of the death rate.  And remember, they had infrastructure back in 1900.  We’d be worse off than they were because they knew how to live back then. 

How many people know how to can food? How many modern Americans know how much wood to cut to burn? How many Americans live in places where they need an elevator, as a practical matter, to get to where they live?

Heck, how many Americans are simply living today because they have access to all kinds of medical technology?  How many Americans are living in places that can only be inhabited thanks to modern technology? Most of the south west was a barren desert until electrical pumps became possible. Much of the south wasn’t, as a practical matter, livable until air condition.

Also, consider our immune systems of today versus what it was 100 years ago. Our sterilized world has made us very vulnerable to the bacteria and viruses that lurk just outside our electrified civilization. And they would be back to visit within weeks.

Conclusions

Is what I describe realistic? Nobody really knows. There are studies out there.  The book One Second After is a bit more dire than I think it would be.  And it may turn out that our infrastructure is tougher than it seems or that the types of nuclear warheads that an Iran or North Korea could produce aren’t powerful enough to cause the necessary EMP. 

But what is so frightening is how vulnerable we are.  It wouldn’t take much of a shove to bring down the electrical grid.  You could still end up with a situation where 10% of the American population (30 million) die simply by screwing up the electrical grid for a couple months.

Do I think this will happen? Probably not. I have a lot of faith in humanity.  But when one considers the things that we worry about – global warming comes to mind, it amazes me how unconcerned people are at how easily disrupted our modern lives could be given how dependent we are on our technology today.


Comments (Page 6)
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on Jun 28, 2009

First of all Stores can not jack up the prise of nessicary items during a crisis. So inless the store was allready charging 20 dollars for a bottle of water it would remain the same prise. Second my grandmother lives in southern GA has no airconditioning. So why would no airconditioning be such a huge burdon to people when an 82 year old lady gets around just fine.

on Jun 28, 2009

Yeah, I'd like to see goverments harden stuff against a 50 meter rise in ocean water levels.

Again, the problem is that people don't know exactly what an EMP is, and how it works, or think they do but are wrong.

Tactically speaking, an EMP is a useless side effect of a nuclear detonation which was experimented with during the Cold War and found lacking compared to the kind of damage a conventional nuclear detonation could do.

If anyone had nukes off the coast of US ready to launch and wanting to use them, they would fry the whole coast, not go for people's laptops. Sheesh. Get real.

Heh, if I were inclined to believe in conspiracy theories, I'd say the book is an intentional fallacy designed to lure potential terrorist groups with magic rogue submarines and ICBM's to deploy them high up in the orbit, where they wouldn't do much damage at all, as oposed to say, levelling the whole East or West Coast to the ground.

on Jun 28, 2009

manshooter, water isn't gonna rise 50 meters, and even if it did, it will be a slow rise which allows people to harmlessly relocate.

People DO know exactly what an EMP is, your presumptions about the issue just show your ignorance, i suggest some education. Tactically speaking an EMP is much much more dangerous than a ground level nuclear explosion.

Frying the whole coast requires MANY nukes. an EMP pulse requires one. And if you have even bothered to read ANYTHING mentioned here you would know that laptops are NOT the issue. Water, cars, and electricity are.

on Jun 28, 2009

an EMP pulse requires one around five or six.

Thais has been covered before.

on Jun 28, 2009

Well, I actually have bothered to read materials which go beyond Wikipedia. So stow your accusations of ignorance. That you even consider an EM pulse capable of destroying the functionality of a car only exposes your own lack of even basic understanding of the physics involved.

I won't even comment on the level of ignorance necessary to state that an airplane would crash because the onboard computer has the date wrong.

As for the power grid, as was stated before on several occasions, strong solar storms can produce an EMP-like event which is capable of knocking out huge sections of the power grid, pretty much in the same way an EMP would do it. Well, the civilization is still standing.

The 50 meter rise is a figure of a doomsday scenario - we are throwing them around here, aren't we - which says that if the ice caps melt entirely, the sea level would rise somewhere between 60-75 metres. This could happen if the current rise of global temperature average causes a "cascade sequence" where, for example, melting permafrost in Siberia releases HUGE amounts of methane into the atmosphere and thus causes an even more rapid rise in temperatures, which would cause more thawing and more methane release until we enter a Tropical Age (at best) and the ice caps melt.

Even if it doesn't, even if the rise is only a meter or so, you are looking at absolutely immense damages and socio-economic implications. But I guess it will take a hurricane hitting New York full force for some people to realize that we've got real issues to deal with, not fictional high-tech terrorists launching nukes into orbit from magically invisible container ships.

on Jun 28, 2009

Over a continent approximately 2500 miles wide and 1000 miles tall, for a total of 2.5x106 square miles - or less than 1 kw/h per square mile.

First, this is not 1 kw/h per square mile.   It is a (KILOWATT * HOUR / SQUARE MILE).  Except the energy is not being released in an hour, it is being released in MicroSeconds, which is a huge conversion factor.  One of the numbers listed as being the time frame of the first change in electric field peaking is 10 nanoseconds, though this is only a tiny fraction of the total power output of the nuke.

Second, you guys were doing the math for a 1KT nuke in the previous example.  The nukes that can blanket a continent are the 1MT nukes from about 250+ miles.  Of course, there really aren't a lot of those or the booster rockets to get them there, so I don't think we have to worry about them.  China has 3MT nukes, but for the most part, most countries use 200-300KT nukes.  Draginol's original scenario was for 5 different container ships with 45KT nukes to blanket the US.  This is more plausible than the 1 nuke detonation from 250miles.

The destruction to electronics and the destruction caused to the power grid are done by 2 different aspects of the EMP.  The shift in an affected areas electromagnetic field causes induction in the power grid, which is like a huge antenna across the country, effectively melting critical parts of transformers.  This is part most people seem to find easiest to agree on -- that the power grid is vulnerable.

The destruction to electronics is caused by an initial change in voltage that lasts for a tiny fraction of a second.  Everything in the EMP range experiences an overvoltage of potentially thousands of volts, and the power supplies of the devices do the rest.  This is one of the main reasons why devices that are turned off or shielded are not hurt, they either don't get exposed to the intense voltage change (hardened or underground), or they don't have power available to take advantage of the change. 

I also think that there will be a lot of electronics that survive, either because of shielding or because they are turned off.  I think we are going to get a lot of vehicles running, even if their computers don't work, but at the same time, I don't discount the possibility that a lot of electronic devices could get fried.  There is a ton of support for  this, and not much arguing against it.  Even if a majority of electronic devices survive, only people with access to power generation will be able to use them indefinately.

I'm not totally on the doom and gloom side of things, but most of what I have read so far indicates the threat from EMP is very real, while there have been few detailed arguments against it.  I did in fact link a paper earlier saying the threat was much smaller than it is normally portrayed, but these opinions seem to be the minority.

on Jun 28, 2009

Even a slow rise in water levels would be disasterous. Untold amounts of land would become unusable, and there would be serious overcrowding in surviving cities.

taltamir, while I agree with you that ManSh00ter is underestimating the power of EMP's, I think that you are not taking into account the incredible unlikeliness of such an attack.

You could, theorectically, wipe out the entire country with one nuke, but it has to be high enough above the planet that it is all but impossible for a terrorist group or rouge country to acheive. They just don't have the tech to get a sufficently large nuke higher than the ISS.

They could do it with multiple nukes+missiles, which wouldn't need as powerful missiles, like the OP, but that is still very unlikely. They would need to get their hands on multiple nukes, which would be quite difficult. IMO, if someone did manage to get that many nukes, I think they would do like ManSh00ter said, and use them on a number of important cities, rather than mess around with an EMP

You also have to take into account the relative intelligence of wouldbe terrorists and/or rouge nations. They don't exactly have a bunch of MIT graduates with Nobel prizes in Nuclear physics. It's very unlikely they'll have anyone who could make the calculations of angle of launch, optimal height of detonation, etc, assuming they even know that nukes can be used as an EMP.

IMO, the only threat we face from an EMP attack is if a country that has the technical know-how (Russia, probably China, etc) decides to launch an attack, and uses one as a pre-emptive strike. Although, I would think that if they were to do that, they would be more likely to just nuke the s*** out of the US, and not bother with the EMP.

This is just a little nit-picky thing, but there are not ground level nuclear explosions (at least not on purpose) For optimal damage, a nuke needs to be detonated above the target, not when it hits the street below. A detonation at ground level wastes a large part of the destruction force. A large part of it gets absorbed by the ground below, and another large part is reflected off the ground into the air, neither of which does much good if you're trying to destroy a city.

ManSh00ter, I think that you are wrong computers+cars being largely immune to the effects of an EMP. Computers have a large amount of wire in them. The motors inside (like the cooling fan, etc) are basiclly just a bunch of coiled wire, and each motor easily has a couple feet of wire in it, more than enough to feel the effects of an EMP.

Cars, particularly the newer ones with built in computers, also have large amounts of wiring. Older cars, and possibly some newer ones that don't rely as heavily on computers probably would still work, however, you might not be able to get gas for them. Many of the pumps used for gas have integrated computers, so they might not work, either.

While I agree that EMP's are greatly exagerated by the media, games, fiction, etc, I don't think they should completely disregarded as a "useless side effect, either.

on Jun 28, 2009

Just so everyone knows. If the ice caps were to completly melt 70% of the worlds population would be forced out of there homes. Due to the fact that 70% of the worlds population lives on the cost or near lakes. Second even if the rise is slow that still has major issues for Cities such as New Orlines and even for entire countries such as  the Netherlands which already exist below sea levle. Just one thing I want eveyone to remember, the ice caps have been melted befor but at that time Flordia was a shalow ocean and england was a chan of islands.

One other tidbit. If we do not change our energy habits within ten years the planet will eventualy heat up to hotter than it has ever been while multicelullar life existed, And at that point we literaly have no clue what will happen.

on Jun 28, 2009

One other tidbit. If we do not change our energy habits within ten years the planet will eventualy heat up to hotter than it has ever been while multicelullar life existed, And at that point we literaly have no clue what will happen.

Well, we can guess, as long as we know the temperature: if it is below about 250 F, we would be able to survive with extreme effort, and if it is below, say 120 degrees, large-scale urbanization miiiiiiight still be possible. But we would be completely unable to sustain this level of population.

on Jun 28, 2009

They could do it with multiple nukes+missiles, which wouldn't need as powerful missiles, like the OP, but that is still very unlikely.

To get an effective blanket EMP instead of a localized one, height is extremely important. To trigger the effect, the bomb must be above the atmosphere. Skimping on the missile is probably a mission-fail

You also have to take into account the relative intelligence of wouldbe terrorists and/or rouge nations. They don't exactly have a bunch of MIT graduates with Nobel prizes in Nuclear physics. It's very unlikely they'll have anyone who could make the calculations of angle of launch, optimal height of detonation, etc, assuming they even know that nukes can be used as an EMP.

Never assume the enemy is an idiot. Such an attack would be physically challenging, not computationally. Sure, it may not be an *optimal* burst, but it will still fry lots of stuff.

This is just a little nit-picky thing, but there are not ground level nuclear explosions (at least not on purpose) For optimal damage, a nuke needs to be detonated above the target, not when it hits the street below. A detonation at ground level wastes a large part of the destruction force. A large part of it gets absorbed by the ground below, and another large part is reflected off the ground into the air, neither of which does much good if you're trying to destroy a city.

True enough, but due to the triggering mechanism not necessarily to avoid wasted energy. Remember that nukes require a precisely timed series of events to detonate properly (all the explosive going off simultaneously, tritium injection, neutron gun firing). You can't just put an inpact fuse on that, the impact needed to set it off could easily break a vital bit of your bomb. 

Hitting a city is planned at 2000 ft AGL for pretty much the reason you stated. However, specific point targets like missile silos require what is essentially a ground burst, maybe 100 feet AGL. This is to create the ground shock required to break stuff inside a hardened bunker.

ManSh00ter, I think that you are wrong computers+cars being largely immune to the effects of an EMP. Computers have a large amount of wire in them. The motors inside (like the cooling fan, etc) are basiclly just a bunch of coiled wire, and each motor easily has a couple feet of wire in it, more than enough to feel the effects of an EMP.

The reason an EMP is so devastating to the power grid is the induced current it generates in long transmission lines. The magnetic flux that causes this current is actually quite low (the Earth's magnetic field is huge, but relatively weak compared to fields we use every day). The low flux density requires a huge circuit to generate any substantial voltage. Yes, the windings of a motor amplify this effect, but probably not enough to destroy most motors. For reference, there were no reports of mass motor destruction from the Starfish test. Television, radio, microwave comm links, and power lines were the main damage.

on Jun 28, 2009

People, an EMP won't knock out your car. It won't knock out radios, computers, cellphones, laptops. It won't magically erase data storage and it certainly won't erase civilization from people's heads.

It won't knock out your car if it has a distributor cap and little or no reliance on computer chips.  It might screw up your car if you have electronic ignition and computer controlled timing, but handy people will probably get a lot of these cars working, even if they aren't running right.  From what I've read, a lot of computer electronics could get destroyed, especially the stuff in operation, with an antenna, or attached to power.

Yes. It would knock out the power grid. This sort of thing has happened before, you know. Solar storms regularly cause disruptions in the power grid, and major storms have caused major disruptions. Civilization survived somehow.

There have been major disruptions causing temporarily loss of power, but nothing like the doomsday scenarios that we have been discussing.  A transformer attached to the power grid would get so much additional load to actually melt the copper inside the transformer.  At least, this is what MANY sources say.  We haven't had a solar event powerful enough to destroy the whole grid yet, it is just another doomsday scenario, so comparing EMP to previous solar storms isn't real useful.

Yes. There would be looting and rioting. Nothing the police, or failing that, national guard and martial law cannot fix.

Local law enforcement might be able to keep order under mild circumstances or for a short time, but they are subject to many of the same dependencies as the civilian population and would soon need help.  The military would be able to keep order because they have their own infrastructure.....until the water and food was totally expended and people start to panic and become really desperate.  I am certainly more optimistic than the scenario Draginol presented, but IF the power grid was totally destroyed, I think there would be dire consequences for the biggest cities -- Los Angeles being the one that keeps coming to mind.

 

 

 

 

on Jun 28, 2009

I personally have never seen a water pump, but as far as I know there are few computer controls, and an on-site engineer could easily jury-rig the thing. I don't know if the primery motive power is electical or mechanical, or if the stations have their own generators, however.

on Jun 28, 2009

the story is similar to what happend to I am Legend movie of WILL SMITH.

on Jun 28, 2009

taltamir, while I agree with you that ManSh00ter is underestimating the power of EMP's, I think that you are not taking into account the incredible unlikeliness of such an attack.

It is slightly MORE likely than direct hit nuclear attack.

It won't knock out your car if it has a distributor cap and little or no reliance on computer chips.  It might screw up your car if you have electronic ignition and computer controlled timing

Which all modern cars do... so let me rephrase, it will knock out MY car and most RUNNING cars. Ancient cars will keep on running. (as I doubt it will be powerful enough to damage the spark plugs)

As for the power grid, as was stated before on several occasions, strong solar storms can produce an EMP-like event which is capable of knocking out huge sections of the power grid, pretty much in the same way an EMP would do it. Well, the civilization is still standing.

This is a matter of scope

One other tidbit. If we do not change our energy habits within ten years the planet will eventualy heat up to hotter than it has ever been while multicelullar life existed, And at that point we literaly have no clue what will happen.

Global warming and cooling cycles are firmly tied to solar activity, global cooling in the 1960s was blamed on the industry, global warming in the 1990s was blamed on industry, and now we are starting to cool again and its probably gonna be attributed to "preservation laws" despite it being the cause of solar activity. Humanity as a whole contributes 3% of yearly global CO2 emissions (that includes both BREATHING and industry), which is much less than things like volcanos and underground coal fires which can burn for decades or centuries. And CO2 is not the only or even most efficient greenhouse gas, (water is far better greenhouse gas).

Plants convert as much CO2 was they can get a hold of to organic molecules (breaking water to produce oxygen and bind hydrogen), resulting in earth atmosphere being 0.038% CO2 and about 20% oxygen. So a rise in CO2 emissions just increases plant growth... but it needs to rise to much higher amounts before that begins to matter.

on Jun 28, 2009

They could do it with multiple nukes+missiles, which wouldn't need as powerful missiles, like the OP, but that is still very unlikely.

To get an effective blanket EMP instead of a localized one, height is extremely important. To trigger the effect, the bomb must be above the atmosphere. Skimping on the missile is probably a mission-fail

No, the point of using multiple, less powerful missiles as that you didn't need to get them as high. Instead of one really high missile taking out the whole country, you would have multiple missiles taking out smaller sections, which wouldn't require as high-powered of a missile because they wouldn't need to go as high.

IMO, that is still very unlikey, since that would require a terrorist group/nation to get multiple nuke.

True enough, but due to the triggering mechanism not necessarily to avoid wasted energy. Remember that nukes require a precisely timed series of events to detonate properly (all the explosive going off simultaneously, tritium injection, neutron gun firing). You can't just put an inpact fuse on that, the impact needed to set it off could easily break a vital bit of your bomb.

Hitting a city is planned at 2000 ft AGL for pretty much the reason you stated. However, specific point targets like missile silos require what is essentially a ground burst, maybe 100 feet AGL. This is to create the ground shock required to break stuff inside a hardened bunker.
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Good point, I forgot about the trigger also being a reason for that. However, it is worth noting that Earth Penetrating Weapons (nuclear bunker-busters) are designed to impact and burrow into the ground and then explode to take out hardened underground bunkers, etc. Since these weapons work, impacting the ground doesn't seem to disrupt the warhead much.

The reason an EMP is so devastating to the power grid is the induced current it generates in long transmission lines. The magnetic flux that causes this current is actually quite low (the Earth's magnetic field is huge, but relatively weak compared to fields we use every day). The low flux density requires a huge circuit to generate any substantial voltage. Yes, the windings of a motor amplify this effect, but probably not enough to destroy most motors. For reference, there were no reports of mass motor destruction from the Starfish test. Television, radio, microwave comm links, and power lines were the main damage.

Its worth pointing out that electric motors were not in widespread use at the time, and computers certainly weren't. Also, there are 3 parts of the EMP created by a nuke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse 

The first part, the part that only lasts a fraction of a second, is the one that fries electronics, and is very hard to protect against. It, as far as I can tell, does NOT require a larg curcuit to be effective.

The second part is very similar to the EMP from a lighting strike, and can be protected againt be normal surge protectors, so it isn't much of a threat. This is why the person who mentioned that we can protect our stuff from lighting is wrong about us also being able to protect against EMP with the same tech, because this is only part of the EMP.

The third part is the slow (relatively) part. It is the part that is similar to a solar flare, and it is the part that fries power line transformers. This is the part that required the long curcuits.

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