Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.

I was reading on the forums today people complaining that even in a post-civilization world (one where people are basically getting together from the ruins) that they would “know” how to do all kinds of things like make bows, swords, etc.

I have a lot of friends who are active in the Renaissance and Medieval communities out there who always laugh at this kind of thing. The conversation goes something like this:

“Really, you think you can make a spear? Ok. Let’s see you do it. Let’s see you actually make a weapons-grade spear. In fact, tell me how you would do it. Do you really think you can just get a stick and sharpen it?”

Some is true about agriculture. It’s amazing that people who can’t manage to keep their house plants alive think that farming is technologically trivial. Gardening isn’t that hard but unless you’ve actually farmed some real acreage, involving a plow and doing a real harvest, it’s not something one just inherently knows how to do.

Or how about making bows and arrows. Not the kind for shooting a bird or something but a weapons-grade bow, one that could kill a soldier.  It requires a level of knowledge that the average lay person, even a medieval peasant, would have no idea how to do. 

As someone into this stuff, I can tell you the mechanics of how to make a bow (lots of ash trees around here). But could I make one that would be actually useful in a battle – i.e. where I’d use it over a good club?  I don’t know.

And that’s before we even talk about metallurgy…


Comments (Page 3)
5 Pages1 2 3 4 5 
on Mar 14, 2012

Okay, I'm less concerned about realism and more about fun.  So lets say for the sake of argument, what is realistic in the scenario presented then?  I'm sure that at the beginning, we would be able to create some basic weapons and armor.  So, what materials do we have?  Animal hides, shells, and bones?  Stones?  Stone headed spear or hatchet, some patchwork hide armor?  Sounds like more fun to me to start with than a club and a staff.  Then what to research?  Right now, you are a thousand times better getting the first 2 columns of warfare before doing anything else and then attacking your neighbors.  Spear, or warhammer and leather 5 man riders will be enough to destroy anyone.  If you decide to do civics or magic first...you could fuck yourself.  

 

 

 

Also, research in these types of games just feels so strange.  Like the entire population is focuses on one thing for years.  No innovations in the field of agriculture due to us all working on harvesting magic crystals.  I've noticed that in real life, my country seems to work on innovating several things at the same time.  There probably isn't a better game mechanic for this, but it just feels really strange and artificial.  Of course, I would argue getting rid of researching technologies at all.  But, I doubt that would be popular.  If this was real life, we would be flying around in jet packs, but still shitting in outhouses.  The technology of every nation you have contact with influences yours.  

 

on Mar 14, 2012

It's also a problem of game mechanics.  The numbers for combat don't allow for good wiggle room.  You can't really hurt anything with a staff.  Or at least the few champions I have had that are equipped with them sure couldn't.  That isn't fun.  I just paid 100 gold for you to club a bear for 2 points of damage and then get murdered and receive an injury that makes you even more useless?  Units need more HP ATTACK and DEFENSE up front so adding something with +8 attack isn't miles better than adding something with +5.  Or that armies aren't constantly being one-hit destroyed.  

on Mar 14, 2012

I''m waaaay ahead of you on this Froggie.  I learned to cast spells.  Those sword swinging, spear chuckers are gonna all serve me after the apocalypse.

on Mar 15, 2012

I did archery in high-school and I have known people who made their own bows. I mean compared to a store bought bow they were crap but making a cheap bow that you can use to hunt rabbits isn't that hard. It would still take the right kind of wood and a fair bit of practice but anyone could do it.

on Mar 15, 2012

A sword:

A bow:

Xer0 \^/

on Mar 15, 2012

Lol Xer07

on Mar 15, 2012

It’s amazing that people who can’t manage to keep their house plants alive think that farming is technologically trivial. Gardening isn’t that hard but unless you’ve actually farmed some real acreage, involving a plow and doing a real harvest, it’s not something one just inherently knows how to do.

Thats the heart of it. There are significant steps between tending seeds, to that of feeding a population. And the game systems are not reflections of real world systems. They've been abstracted. I've read a couple posts recently, talking of cropping the early techs. I'm for an option for advanced start. But for my own games, I want to start basic tech. And would like to have our choices in early tech expanded. Want more decisions over What to tech, When and Why. With late game consequences and capitalizations based on early tech decisions.

 

The way I think of Techs in 4x TBS like Civ4 and E:FE is...

It takes time for a society to make significant use of something new. I imagine the time spent on tech trees, as being the time it takes to make the transition to something new. So the tech Spud Farming..

Spud Farming:

+10 Food per Grain (+20 with Crop Rotation tech)

Allows resource Vodka with Spirits tech and Distillery building

Takes my faction 12 turns to learn. 12 turns to have fully incorporated a new technology into their society. So by the 12th turn, when I "learn the tech".. A potato suitable for large scale agriculture has been breed. Sufficient sized seed stock awaits large scale planting. Fields are prepped, irrigation is in. Support industries such as Livery, Blacksmith, Seed and Feed, Hardware, etc have all scaled up to service the increased demands. 

 

The game systems abstract and stretch real world systems out of the realm of comparison. They add feature to gameplay. Never intended as real'ish world simulation. So questions like "why must my band of survivors learn Agriculture if people before the fall already knew it", take some imagination to answer. Just as it took imagination to ponder such a question in the first place.   

 

It would be odd to think of learning a tech to be like "BAM! There it is!". Your scholars have learned something new. Now our crops are suddenly more nutritious, our farmers more industrious. Happy day. Bless the scholars who bring instant progress. Nah. Society doesn't immediately reap the full benefit. There are things to do. Learning a tech is about that stuff occurring. The Sov chooses a tech direction, the nation develops accordingly. 

 

Purpose of Tech in 4x TBS:

Provides players with choices, results, consequences.

Provides vehicle for player to steer a nations development.

Decisions like Guns or Butter, Grain or Metals. Magic or Might. 

Provides play style options: warmonger, builder, techie, diplomat, mage, merchant etc

And more

 

on Mar 15, 2012

http://dtstools.ca/dtstools_en/gallery_en.html

There's plenty of weapons laying around in most peoples garages, homes.

on Mar 15, 2012

Weapons around my home... 

The ones I'm practiced enough in handling, to wield if needed as weapon with lethal authority.

Pitchfork, scythe, shovel, axe, polaski, sledge, machete, hatchet, various hammer weights, A range of knives.

And a Springfield Armory M-6 Scout survival rifle.

Assorted other things

on Mar 16, 2012


  Or how about making bows and arrows. Not the kind for shooting a bird or something but a weapons-grade bow, one that could kill a soldier.  It requires a level of knowledge that the average lay person, even a medieval peasant, would have no idea how to do. 
As someone into this stuff, I can tell you the mechanics of how to make a bow (lots of ash trees around here). But could I make one that would be actually useful in a battle – i.e. where I’d use it over a good club?  I don’t know.
And that’s before we even talk about metallurgy…

 

That is not completely true, otherwise, we would not have found that many prehistoric axes and spears if they were less efficient than the club : they would just have clubbed the inventor to death and ate his meal. A military grade weapon is all relative : when everyone else wears animal skins as heavy armor, a military grade spear is just a stick with a stone end, and it kills people. Bow is maybe more complex, and sword out of reach, but a sling and an axe and a knife are definitely possible. Of course, you wouldn't stand a chance against an armored footsoldier with that, but luckily for you, there are none around, so there is little reason to discard these weapons.

 

I guess against a bear or a mammoth, most people would take crude spears over club anyday (and the ones with the clubs would be the ones to die first anyway). 

 

On top of that, there is probably a strong correlation between the 1% who survived and the ones who knew someone who could craft decent crude weapons and protection

 

Concerning the agricultural thing, it is a bit trickier, however, agriculture is a prerequisite to establish a sedentary settlement (not a village that moves each season to follow the evolution of mammoth population density), so once again, the sovereign that stepped forward and created those must have discovered agriculture beforehand (ie before the game begins), by either questing for older books, or whatever.

 

From a mechanics point of view, having a sword may be as boring as having a club, but having to chose between a spear, a club, a sling, and an axe during the first third of the game would help offer more choice. 

That would allow us to recruit units that could live through the whole campaign, instead of not bothering with them because they'll become obsolete anyway as your nation is not specialized in clubs and warhammers but bows. 

on Mar 16, 2012

Very good post, DarkGaldred!

on Mar 16, 2012

DarkGaldred

From a mechanics point of view, having a sword may be as boring as having a club, but having to chose between a spear, a club, a sling, and an axe during the first third of the game would help offer more choice.. 

I concur

on Mar 17, 2012


About ten years ago, I had the honor to meet and interview the anthropologist James Yost, who was the first non-Wau person to have met and survived an encounter with the Wau people (of southern America). All previous attempts met with untimely death. The Wau are semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers of the jungles and use poison blowdarts. He subsequently lived with them for 15 years and actually raised his two kids in the jungle there for most of their childhood. When I saw some of the films he had made of one of the main occupations the men do, which is finding materials for and then making blowpipes and blowdarts, and then hunting small monkeys with them (and yes, the poison blowdarts are used to kill enemy humans as well), my eyes fell out of my head. I couldn't make one of those in a hundred years. It's REALLY FREAKING HARD. And then those things are two meters long -- it looks incredibly hard to hold still when held to one's mouth. I am certain I couldn't hit the side of barn with one. But they hit tiny little moving targets through thick foliage at 50 paces. It's an INCREDIBLE amount of skill. I forget how long it took Yost to learn these skills, but it is certainly not trivial to make a functional blowpipe without any industrial tools from naturally occuring jungle resources. And by analogy, my intuition (have nothing else to go on) tells me that going out to find, process, and smelt ore, and then make a decent sword, is anything but trivial.

on Mar 17, 2012

Then you'd be dead after the cataclysm, or would have found one way or another to craft tools to kill things : the thing is, the people who cannot craft crude weapons (or get them crafted) in a world with creatures much more dangerous than our own would virtually have no hope of survival at all. If the survivors have a technology level below Cro magnon (who knew how to craft spear, hurl them, and use a bow) in a world that is more hostile, they just cannot survive at all : I agree that most people would not have been able to adapt and craft anything usefull, but these people would all be dead by now, and would not matter in the game at all.

 

After all, there is a reason why 99% of the population has been wiped out. But I don't see how the 1% left can survive without access to some weapon and crafting knowledge. 

 

The point is there is no reason for people to stop knowing things like hunting, and crude weapon crafting, when their survival depends on it even more than before. Of course, most refinement would be lost, but assuming that the survivors would have lost knowledge of everything, and then spent the next 150 years watching TV just does seem far fetched.

 

Our ancestors hunted mammoths with axes, knives, spears and arrows made of stone, and somehow, it seemed to have worked as we are still there, but mammoths aren't. I suppose a stone spear would have even less trouble killing a man than a mammoth.  You don't need state of the art poison blowpipe or steel dopplehandler to kill a man (or a beast).

 

The gameplay problem is not just researching the same techs in the beginning, but having zero customization options for a good part of the game. 

on Mar 18, 2012

@ Frogboy: I also wouldn't argue that starting with low-level techs is anything near realist. That isn't my point in the thread you read (and that of some of the complaining players). The way the early techs are set up is just unfun (if it doesn't add to the game and is just in there for sake of realism why leave it in?) and if the fix would be to make them cheaper to not have it take long to get them, why not go all-out and axe them completely?

That Kael decided to allow all / most resources to be hooked up right at the start proves the above at least partly.

I'm not against making them viable. I just see more potential for differentiation in axing them and/or allow starting techs being the current Tier 3 and see the game actually lacking because of their existance.

But then its Kael's vision and the hard work of the people at Stardock Entertainment. So feel free to prove me wrong (release is still quite a while off anyways so I do expect stuff to change wildly still.).


More on topic:
Those who say that people in a post-civilization world would still know "easy stuff" are mistaken. Not least because most "easy" or "outdated" stuff isn't actually easy. (lost techniques of designing musical instruments and auditory layout of rooms or architectural design of medival times are ample proof of this. Or medival weapons-making- and using techniques. As is their recent rediscovery and what was found out about that.)

Quite on the contrary some of the stuff modern civilization doesn't do or can't do anymore is because the stuff was actually to far in sophistication and the new solutions are (sometimes supposedly ) more easy and efficient.
The view that ancient civilizations / engineers where inferior by capacity and have nothing we could learn from them is what leads to much ignorance.
Lots could be (and in some areas is) learned from those ancient techniques even for modern applications.
And then enter Biomimikry where we learn from the oldest master of them all. Nature. If we are willing to accept that we might not be superior in all things. Humility and willingness to accept limited knowledge or no knowledge + a good dose of unbiased curiosity and willingness to accept a result which challenges existing perceptions is all it takes sometimes to develop and learn.


There is analogy in computer games as well. I doubt most modern programmers would without some serious training be able to program Games like Elite in an 1980 Hardware environment or other solid software of the time
(since today the limitations of processing power, ram and storage space are far less of an issue while other criteria like market viability, timetables and other corporate stuff as well as more diverse hardware-sets seems to be the challenge of the day for professional programmers. At least from an outsiders view).
But that impression might be wrong (Its just an example I'm closer to my field of interests than the other examples I gave minus Biomimikry.). Feel free to correct me about modern programmers abilities if I'm way off the mark.

5 Pages1 2 3 4 5