And there's the absurd argument of not questioning of government's response while people and infants lay hungry, exhausted and dying while waiting to receive food. It took 4 days for Bush to finally arrive in NO and to do the photo op. Four days! In the meantime, the attention is being diverted to the looters. Without food for 4 days and desperation, looting was the only option. (although the looting of electronics was wrong, I concede that.) At a point, you have to face reality and stop spouting the Republicans' spin. They are covering their asses. Clear and simple. Questioning our government in a time of crisis is necessary. Why wasn't the Federal Government there sooner? Flaws in the government were exposed and you're saying they are not the least responsible? Why were their helicopters circling the area and food drops delayed? Why weren't buses there sooner? Fuck that, people are dying as the Republicans (and Democrats) spout about how much their helping

Ah I see -- so saying that the entire mess isn't the federal government's fault is me "spouting" Republican spin.  Just so that we're clear.

And the Mayor of New Orleans, no doubt unable to do anything without federal oversight, is blameless. Sure, thousands of busses were left in parking lots to sink in waters rather than be used to bus people out, but it's Bush's fault..

And of course, blaming the federal government = compassion.  Not putting all the blame on the federal government - "insensitive, cold and unfeeling".

Incidentally, it IS the federal government doing nearly all the work.  What's the Mayor of NO and the governor of the state doing besides bitching?  What other help of significance is pouring into the situation other than federal help?  Imagine if Florida were run this way.

It's not exactly difficult to do a case study and look at the difference between how Florida responds to disasters and how Louisiana has responded. But sure, blame Bush, the federal government, or Halliburton or whoever rather than look to see what really went wrong, specifically so that we can learn from it.

Observations:
1. New Orleans mayor and state governor responses lacked leadership and assertiveness.
2. The Fed's reactions given #1 exhibits the same traits.
3. People have needlessly died over partisan politics, bureaucracy, and an inability to prepare THEMSELVES for disaster.

Sad...

It took 4 days for Bush to finally arrive in NO and to do the photo op.

And if he arrived the next day you would be complaining that he's taking attention away from the victims. Nothing about Bush will ever please the leftists here.

Seems to me the Mayor of NO, the Govenor of LA, FEMA, DHS, and the Bush Administration have ALL made mistakes and poor decisions (short and long term) that have led to additional loss of life in this disaster.

Did not President Bush ask for people to get out, including by some things I've seen on the news, asking for the evacuation (even if it was Sunday)? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/28/national/main798819.shtml

I found this interesting reading earlier: http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

Especially some of the seemingly contradictory parts.

"Slow developing weather conditions (primarily hurricane) will create increased readiness culminating in an evacuation order 24 hours (12 daylight hours) prior to predicted landfall. "

Later on

"A. Evacuation Time Requirements

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time). Clearance time does not refer to the time a single vehicle spends traveling on the road network. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.

> Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less

> Special Needs Evacuation Order: 8-12 hours after Precautionary Evacuation Notice issued

> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less "

It sat in the Gulf gathering strength for _days_. Taking the scenic route up and getting ready to turn NO into a giant bowl of gumbo (the levees were only supposed to work for a Cat3, this was a Cat5 up until almost the moment it hit land). The nutria and the drunks on Bourbon street knew it was coming, but the mandatory evacuation order wasn't issued until Sunday by the only person legally authorized to do so?

"B. Issuance of Evacuation Orders

The person responsible for recognition of hurricane related preparation needs and for the issuance of an evacuation order is the Mayor of the City of New Orleans. Concerning preparation needs and the issuance of an evacuation order, The Office of Emergency Preparedness should keep the Mayor advised."

That said, I think President Bush could have jumped on this a lot quicker. Flying over the devastation in Air Force One (however low the pilot went).

"It's devastating, it's got to be doubly devastating on the ground," Bush said, according to his spokesman Scott McClellan. (http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=9524815) is not leadership. Yes, it's understandable shock, but when the plane got on the ground, it was time to get things done.

President Truman had a sign on his desk that said "The Buck Stops Here". There shouldn't have been a question of waiting to see if state and local governments were getting things done (was the LA National Guard mobilized before it hit?), it should have been "The cavalry is on the way."

And that includes for Mississippi (wow, the old spelling rhyme comes back so readily and Alabama as well, which seem to be getting overshadowed when you can see a semi-major city to focus on for the cameras.

Where's Waldo: National Security Edition

If I may ask a question about the man I didn't vote for: where is Dick Cheney?

The last time we had a national crisis he was tucked away with some Stonecutters and Monty Burns faster than I could grill up a steak. Katrina is not planning a secondary strike when our guard is down.

Yes, fine, he was there for the speech at the Rose Garden today, but... you know... that was a photo op because they know they've bungled their part in this and are scrambling to catch up.

Bush's dick was at the rose garden? Damn, he makes an appearance while I was blinking. I missed it. Are you sure it wasn't a poster board version of him?

As he wasn't in the photos I saw, no, I'm not sure.  I did find the people who were in the photos framing the President... well... let's just say I found it something something. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/national/nationalspecial/04bush.html?hp&ex=1125806400&en=23cce9f23aa42f66&ei=5094&partner=homepage

you said:
"I'm sorry.. what does owning a gun have to do with a gas-guzzling SUV and global warming? Or are you getting your foarming at the mouth "I'm going to make the world a better place and you'll like it when I'm done" issues mixed up? This is a tragedy, but as people mentioned before.. they were given days to get out. "


I say:
You'll be pleased to know that I'm not foaming, just despondent. There is a link in my mind between these things, and this is how it goes. There is a general acceptance in mainstream science of global warming. certainly it isn't unanimous, there are some well credentialed dissenters, and of course it is a theory not fact, just as any good science is. It may be incorrect etc..... However the current situation revolved around what level of 'proof' or evidence we need to justify what will be expensive action. We ordinary citizens (and I count myself as one of these) can read the research as we understand it but in the end we rely on the consensus of the scientific community. The reality is that the worldwide consensus leans solidly towards global warming as a real process.

Now if we can accept that global warming is happening, or at least that there is a likelihood that it is a reality then what should we do about it? If we decide that there is insufficient evidence do you propose that we do nothing different for the next 10.000, or perhaps 100,000 years - the time required to determine whether this is true climatic change as a result of human influence or just cyclical variation without added human change. It would seem prudent to me to at very least 'insure' our societies against the possibility of human influenced climate change. Giving up a 12-15mpg SUV seems to be a small change in lifestyle for a small minority of the planet's population. Sure it is way more involved than 'pick on the SUV drivers', and other changes also should be made. in fact if you have read books such as 'Green Capitalism' it is clear that taking out this societal insurance and profits actually go together.

One difficulty that we have is in how we measure happiness in terms of economic activity. The rebuilding of New orleans and the gulf states will be spun as 'a boost to the economy' as thousand of building and construction companies take advantage of the need to build and will be sold as a model of successful capitalism at work. of course at one level this is all true, but the reality is that the cost of super hurricanes and other environmental effects that are attributable to global warming are costs and should be noted in red ink, not black. Further invisible costs are the physical and mental health impacts of these events as well as the social costs. these are never costed into our lifestyle choices, always ignored. A particularly American (although far from exclusively so) phenomena is to ignore the steady erosion of social structures, blame the individuals (eg 'why are all looters black'), and to dismiss the effects of years of neglect in your own country. The problems become institutionalised: when people are working for subsistence level wages there is no money to flee a big storm, when your neighbours and everyone else in your apartment block is in the same position, large group social dynamics take over and people stay put. Society and social structures exist to modify and assist with these factors. It is stuff like social cohesion, a factor that appears to be very low in the US where 'individual liberty' seems to be values above all else, that is the societal force that modifies the group dynamics to permit things like successful mass evacuations etc. I can't imagine this disaster happening the same way in Canada for instance despite there being a large number of 'Afro-Canadians'. The cost of no social cohesion is that the USA acronym doesn't reflect geographical states as much as it reflects parallel states of relationships between the individual and society: within several blocks there can be people who enjoy the best that the US has to offer and those that have experienced generations of marginalisation and exclusion from that other state of inter-relationship. The 'haves' no longer see the 'have-nots' as belonging to their subset of society and blame them for their own exclusion, resent their taxes paying for 'those people'.

As I said, these are factors are human nature to a large extent but (to many living outside USA) seem exaggerated and even glorified in the US. Somehow the social costs of this dis-integration are dismissed and in cases even sold as 'advantages'. For example have a look at the thread that this post comes from: http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?p=2213909#post2213909 - This is a cycling newsgroup with almost the longest running thread on the site. there is a consistent theme here: US cyclists (well a subset) see carrying a weapon to defend themselves whilst cycling as being as natural as I would feel about putting a water bottle on my bike. All posts from citizens outside the US (and many from inside too) are incredulous and appalled. Some posters even try to reformulate their need to carry a gun for protection as an example of their freedom!

The connection between all this and New Orleans is clear to me. Look at what has happened there in a broader context - is a society that achieves greatness for a section of it's citizens at the price of creating a permanent underclass what you want? Is the cost of having a 3rd world social infrastructure worth the benefit of a 1st world military?





And the majority of the guns being shot at rescue helicopters, police, etc.. were looted, not owned prior to the hurricane.

why do you need so many guns?

You say:
". Looted by people who are now openly admitting they stayed behind to loot, and are just now letting the seriousness of their situation sink in on them. I mean, how angry it would make one feel to suffer a hurricane only to realize that 11 pairs of brand new sneakers you stayed behind to loot.. you can't get them out to sell. And that brand new TV you carried through the contaminated waters? Hell, you can't sell it either! You can't even watch it because there's no electricity!"

I say:
I agree! Madness! However when you exist in a society that sells the message that the path to happiness comes through consumer goods, what do you do when you are unhappy, you buy stuff, or even better you steal it. That is how what is happening makes some kind of perverted sense. What the fuck are they going to do with a new wide-screen TV?


You say:
"New Orleans, gem of the South that she was, was living on borrowed time regarding the levees and being packed in between the lake and the ocean. She will never be the same and it's time to understand that. Do we invest billions of dollars in an attempt only to have another hurricane cycle wipe her out again in 100 years? 50 years? 10?
A hurricane happened. To scream global warming now trivializes the fact that the ocean is a powerful force.. always has been. Port towns down through history have been wiped out by hurricanes.
I still want to know what owning or having a gun has to do with that. You want an issue to cry about? Cotton versus hemp.. There. Have fun with that ecological issue."

I say:
I agree with your comments on the geographical location of New Orleans. I've never been there but it does seem that the infrastructure was insufficient to protect the city, and the agencies that should have handled disaster planning have been subsumed into a bigger agency that now focuses on the 'war' against terror. This is an important debate that the US has to have. It seems a universal phenomena that rich people live in the high ground in cities and poor people live in the low ground. I wonder though, that if this had been reversed, whether the levees would have been more substantial and the human toll much lower. As for your cotton versus hemp question, you'll have to enlighten me.

Eugenics theory used to be accepted by the "mainstream" scientific community...

Anyway..

I hate to be the bad guy here but at a certain point, no one has more of a vested interest in you than you. This hurricane didn't sneak up on anyone. It was a category 5 hurricane coming in.  They're lucky it went down to 4.  Days before they hit the news was reporting that it would have "catastrophic" damage on the coast and in particular New Orleans.

No one wants to put "blame" in the vicitms in this horrible tragedy.  But if this incident teaches us anything at all it's that don't put too much faith in the government to help you.