Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
So much..so much..
Published on September 28, 2005 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Holy cow are things going fast now.  Up till now, it's been engine building. And even now, it's still engine building. But now we're starting to get into gameplay features which are far more fun.

Fleets are in. Totally in. Of course, at the AI guy, I have to get the AI to effectively use them.  I just finished working on the AI's handling of the planetary improvements.  The planet surface code is all done with STL which I'm a bit sketchy with.  So my first crack at it was a bit weak.  This time, it's better. Not great. But better.  The AI doesn't know how to upgrade its planetary improvements yet. I will have to go through and do that.  That's going to be interesting to do.

It's easy to write fast AI code. And it's easy to write really smart AI code.  But it's really hard to write fast and smart AI code.  And that's the conumdrum I always have.  For instance, in GalCiv I, my biggest beef was that the AI didn't update its ship orders between turns. That is, if you moved your ship, the AI couldn't attack it because it "moved".  That was because of the time it would take for the AI to "update" its ships.  This time, I'm going to fix that.  CPUs are faster and I'll use that extra processing power there.

Another thign I'm going to do is completely re-do the way the AI goes to war.  Fleets change things a lot and make things potentially easier.  I have my fears about the balancing of the weapons techs still but since I do that too, at least I can tweak that myself as I discover exploits. 

The way the AI did war in GalCiv I was based on a military concept of projections of force.  I would identify a sector I wanted to militarily control and then figure out how many ships I needed to control it and send them in there.  The problem came in when trying to coordinate my groups of ships.  In a tiny or small galaxy, the AI ships woudl come in groups quite nicely.  Since I was running in the debugger (Which is much slower), I tended to play the game on very small galaxy sizes and the result was nice.  But as you moved up in size, the ships had more and more of a problem getting to the target at the same time.  As a result, ships would come in dribs which looked like, to me and our critics, as the usual "death march" of lame AI that we've seen for decades. 

But with GalCiv II, I've got better tools.  First, Altarian Prophecy introduced the Rally Point system.  The AI, thanks to the "not cheating" design, can make use of the same stuff as humans and vice versa since the engine doesn't make a distinction between players.  So the AI can set up rally points on ships to move together.  And now with the fleet code, I can group them together more easily.  I am also going to add in code so that even if I don't build fleets (due to lack of logistics units for instance) I will set a "slower" speed for ships that can't keep up so that when you're attacked, you know it. They come in waves of massive fleets.

I'm also going to put more work into having the AI clue the player in on what it's thinking.  There's a lot of calculations the AI does that humans don't even know about that could make the game more exciting.

We're starting to move forware more on the tech tree.  I hope people like our philosphy on it.  In GalCiv I, it was based on the OS/2 version of the tech tree which was based on the tech tree not being tightly coordinated with the rest of the game.  In GalCiv II, the techs  tie into something in the game. So it's much more linear.  You have techs called Plasma Weapons IV for instance (as opposed to "Advanced Phase Induction" or something like that).  You research a technology because you want something specific out of it.  So there's a lot fewer essoteric techs in there.

I sure hope people like the fleet battles. I think they're cool. But I think some people are going to think "Why can't I control my ships?".  It's a playback of the battle, not a tactical battle element.  I hate tactical battles in strategy games.  Hate them.  The reason is that they're so time consuming. I am the guy who always pressed "Auto" in Master of Orion.  But I also knew that I wasn't playing the game optimally by doing that because the AI is never going to be as good as a skilled player at tactical combat.  Our combat system is essentially like a forced "auto" of the MOO 2 thing except with 2005 3D graphics.  If you watch a battle in cinematic view, it's a lot like watching a battle from Star Trek TNG.

Speaking of MOO, people who only played MOO need to remember -- GalCiv isn't Master of Orion.  GalCiv for OS/2 was a contemporary of MOO 1 for DOS back years ago.   GalCiv I was in public beta back in 1993.  It's a different game.  As much as I like the MOO series, I don't want GalCiv to be MOO. 

There were 3 points from MOO1/2 that I particularly don't want to emulate (and bear in mind, I'm a huge MOO2 fan, I played MOO2 in the delivery room waiting for my first born -- true story):

  1. MOO 1/2 always ended in a genocide race. Each side collected huge fleets and then just wiped out each other's planets so it was a race to see who killed off the other.
  2. MOO 1/2 had tactical combat which I really don't like in a strategy game.  If I want tactical combat (And sometimes I do) then I'll play Homeworld which does it very well.
  3. MOO 1/2 had starlanes.  I like free-form maps. It worked for MOO since you're parking fleets around.  But in a free form map like GalCiv, you have to limit fleet sizes and distribute up military power.

So while I sympathize that many MOO 1/2 fans are looking for a MOO 4, GalCiv isn't designed to be it.   It has its own set of strengths and weaknesses that make it a unique gaming experience.

Anyway, Beta 4 should be out before Halloween.  It'll be still a beta (read: buggy and incomplete) but it'll be well on its way to final by then. It's not quite fun IMO yet, but it's getting there.  Beta 4 will be open to those who pre-ordered the game.

 


Comments (Page 1)
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on Sep 28, 2005
Huh?

MOO3 had starlanes, but in MOO1/2 you could go directly from any planet to any other planet.

BTW, you have a quirky use of the term "beta." Most people use it to mean "feature complete, but without all the bugs shaken out."
on Sep 29, 2005

What I mean is that you instantly traveled from system to system. You couldn't stop a fleet from getting to your system in the first place.

on Sep 29, 2005

BTW, you have a quirky use of the term "beta." Most people use it to mean "feature complete, but without all the bugs shaken out."

Who is "most people"?  Windows Vista BETA 1 came out a couple months ago.  It's not anywhere close to feature complete.  Office 12 Betas have been floating around, it's not close to feature complete.  I was in the Starcraft and Warcraft 3 betas, they weren't even close to feature complete.  The World of Warcraft beta wasn't anywhere near complete either. 

 

on Sep 29, 2005
The only reason I prefer the starlanes method is because it creates a "front line" in a war that you can't have in a freeform map. In freeform, unless you simply have a crapload of ships (even on a small map), it's very hard to have any strategic choke points. As a result, it's very difficult, and impossible on large galaxies, to use the physical space strategically. If the opponent had the range necessary, they could easily move in to your core worlds unopposed, or at least unnoticed.

In the freeform map of GC1, you either had to build into a corner to protect your sides that way, or be very careful about managing who you were at war with. A two-front war, or worse three or four front, became nearly impossible to manage as they could easily just bypass your fortified frontier planets and cut straight to the soft creamy center of your empire.
on Sep 29, 2005
Good point Zoomba! War is al about front lines. Although space is of course 3d, I suppose that even in space war has its front lines with choke points. What's your opinion Draginol. Please ellaborate on MOO2.
on Sep 29, 2005

Good points Zoomba. 

One of the things we've played around with were modules on starbases that would prevent ships enemy ships from going past them for a few tiles on each side.

on Sep 29, 2005
Just wondering if you are going to be taking advantage of the new multi core processors. It’s a pain to write multi threaded apps properly but it seems that the way to the performance crown is no longer with increasing the performance of the processors but adding cores. Also if you could devote one core to the AI it could make things very interesting.
on Sep 29, 2005
GalCiv is already multithreaded.  There have been articles at Tom's Hardware about how our multithreaded ability shows off well on hyperthreading machines.  Multicore machines will particularly benefit.
on Sep 29, 2005
A few ways to help with the open border issue...
1. A tech that you can delpoy to entire sectors (for a significant price)... Sensor Network. Deploy it all along a border segment near a planet, that way you're immediately notified of any non-allied ship crossing your border.

2. Starbase Enhancement - Gravity Well
Movement cut by 1/4 for all non-allied ships within X number of spaces of the station. Range increases with better module tech. This could help to build a quasi wall that ships won't really be able to get through easily.

3. Non-starbase stationary defenses
Essentially space turrets. They wouldn't take much abuse but would deal a fair bit. This would be great for at least establishing a defended border early on in the game. It would also be a great way to protect your core worlds without keeping a massive fleet there. A move-once drone type ship with a several square range. Moderately cheap to build.

Basically I'm thinking of ways to essentially build a wall, or at least make that border line mean something in terms of strategy.

Also, most importantly... MAKE THE AI AWARE OF MY BORDER! I'm tired of playing 4x games where the AI starts screaming at me every time I come within a light year of their border, yet send crap through my territory all the time. I would like to treat any incursion into my space as an act of war, and I'd like the AI to treat the borders as something serious, something they'd only cross with my permission or if they intended to invade.
on Sep 29, 2005
My only suggestion would be that you slow down the ground invasion battle just a bit. I love the tension as you watch both sides take casualties. The current GalCiv I model goes by in a heartbeat taking away the suspense. Doesn't have to go too long just a few more seconds would make taking a planet a lot more visceral.
on Sep 29, 2005
Great to hear about starbases stopping ships from passing for a few tiles... I like Zoomba's ideas, especially the need to keep the AI out of my space. Colonizing a planet in my border (or even under my influence) should be discouraged somehow. I hate when my opponents start colozing behind my lines, just like I hated it in Civ. So please, some concept of borders

As for tactical combat, Im with Frogboy, I always hit auto. Looking forward to seeing this fleet action.
on Sep 29, 2005

Great to hear about starbases stopping ships from passing for a few tiles...

I can certainly second this.

Too much realism in space games can become a pain. If you want a great example of this look at Frontier : Elite 2 (or 3) from Bell and Braben. Great concept but it was such a realistic space flight sim that it revealed one important aspect of space combat: For all intents and purposes it's impossible! Yup with all that distance + relativistic speeds two spacecraft rarely if ever match up enough to shoot at even see one another. After all .1 degree of skew is not much at say 100 mph but it is pretty damn huge at half the speed of light.

Realism like that made a nice tech demo but a very poor game.

on Sep 29, 2005
One of the things we've played around with were modules on starbases that would prevent ships enemy ships from going past them for a few tiles on each side.


I love the sound of that. That could make for some excellent war upset moments as the fleet is required to knock out a forward base before it can pentrate the empire. Oh yes.

Too much realism in space games can become a pain. If you want a great example of this look at Frontier : Elite 2 (or 3) from Bell and Braben. Great concept but it was such a realistic space flight sim that it revealed one important aspect of space combat: For all intents and purposes it's impossible! Yup with all that distance + relativistic speeds two spacecraft rarely if ever match up enough to shoot at even see one another. After all .1 degree of skew is not much at say 100 mph but it is pretty damn huge at half the speed of light.
Realism like that made a nice tech demo but a very poor game.


Noooooo! Elite 2 was brilliant, and the combat was hardly impossible. Tricky yes, impossible no. Now landing on a planets surface under manual control was impossible. Well nearly, I do know someone who did it but I never could. Anyway, Elite is the past, play EVE-Online.

P.S. My alliance just destroyed a pirate corps space station, took us 1hr 20mins to batter the thing down with over 30 battleships. Great fun.
on Sep 29, 2005

Elite 2 was brilliant

it was the one after that that never got finished that I am talking about. The only combat that ever occured what right above the surface of the planet as you both lifted off or alternately if you left slightly behind one ship and went to the exact same planet they were going to you could oh so gently play with the engine settings and creep up behind them to stay at a relative standstiull in order to kill them. Anything on a skew line? Forget it.

on Sep 29, 2005
How about something like captor mines? You'd need the intercept ability being discussed in another thread. basically, it would be similar to the GC1 Antimatter missile, with one big difference. It can move and attack during an opponent's turn. Scatter them along the border, and it will at least discourage anyone from trying to cross your space.
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