Giving soldiers the respect they deserve

The saga

Published on November 29, 2005 By Draginol In Politics

There's been a very stimulating series of articles written by JoeUser bloggers with regards to the opinions of civilians on the sidelines making claims about what the military should and shouldn't do. I missed some of the first ones (particularly a great one by Texas Wahine) so here's the series so far:

We need to help those Iraqis! (a civilian frustrated with those who oppose the war)

If you love war so much, why not go fight it? (frustration with non-serving civilians who seem to glorify war)

Why aren't you fighting in Iraq? (Bakerstreet responds to the above)

I dont' have to serve to support (same)

Are you a pasty pile of goo? (are people being overly defensive?)

One-Upmanship on JoeUser (whose opinions matter more?)

As a professional jerk, I'm a lot less sensitive to the feelings of soldiers or pro-military or anti-military people. Simply put, I support the war. I support the job the military is doing. The job. Our soldiers are doing a job. I don't really care whether they like the job or not any more than I care whether individual policemen or firemen like the job they're doing. I only care that they do their job.

That said, I can totally sympathize with soldiers and their families who see arm-chair generals, comfy at home, who treat warfare as little more than a sport for their amusement. I have seen this attitude in many pro-war people, a total disconnect from the hellish, dangerous, and staggeringly difficult times our soldiers face. I can totally get what they're saying. But I don't want to be lumped into that. I haven't served in the military. I probably never will. But I feel I do have an appreciation for the job our soldiers are doing even if I cannot even imagine what they've gone through. Therefore, I make no bones that I support the job they've done.

Then again, being a jerk, I don't have any particular sympathy for the Iraqis. I would support bringing troops home IF there was the understanding that if Iraq fell into terrorist hands we would go in there and overthrow what they'd cobbled together. Winning against terrorism doesn't mean we have to set up some sort of peaceful democratic state. Not in my opinion anyway. There's any number of countries that are in states of near anarchy. What we have to work against are states with significant financial and material assets who support terrorism or who allow terrorists to openly organize and plan. Hence, while I agree us leaving Iraq would likely result in a non-democratic government run by Shiites who oppressed minorities or even lead to civil war, I don't really care. I'd rather have our soldiers home. IF that oppressive government started to support anti-US policies, pursue WMDs, sponsor terrorists, then we could go in again and take them out.

Of course, many of you reading what I just wrote probably are shaking your head at my naivete. Because you're right. The US cannot (contrary to what some left-wing fringe Europeans think) just send the military in on a whim to overthrow countries we didn't like. Not until I'm emperor anyway. Therefore, the most balanced course of action is probably to stay until there's enough infrastructure in place that Iraq can move forward on its own and draw down troops gradually as they can.

Comments (Page 3)

dharmagrl

on Dec 01, 2005

The last exchange between me and dharma on Tex's article (#35, #36) has caused me to give up hope of trying to find any middle ground. A depressing, futile discussion. Evidently we speak two different languages

Yeah, Baker, that's why I said you were right on my 'all about the money' article. Because we speak two different languages. Did you even read my response to you there? You said:

If you want to focus on the mercenary aspects and downplay patriotism and honor, that is your right. I tend to think maybe the people you are around don't wear their patriotism on their sleeve, and perhaps being constantly surrounded by people dedicated to such duty you've lost sight of how rare it is in the world.

To which I responded:

I think you are entirely right. See, when you're isolated from the civilian world the way Tex and I are, you get so accustomed to people doing their duty all the time that you tend to forget that the 'real world' doesn't operate quite like that.

I'm not trying to downplay the honor aspect. Obeying orders and doing your duty IS an honorable thing to do. I'm simply saying that to tar every single service member with a patriotic brush is an error. Some people, like my husband and Sergeant Neale, go to war because that's part of their job, not because they want to. They do their jobs to primarily to provide for their family, not out of a sense of patriotism.

I'm hoping that you simply didn't see it.....

DJBandit

on Dec 01, 2005

DJBandit: Yeah, good idea. I read what you wrote earlier, and I think it was a smart choice to let someone with more sense and better writing ability speak for you instead of spouting the error-riddled, condescending crap that you initially posted.

So you insult my opinion because we don't agree on something? Funny how I don't ever recall saying anything directly to you, or anything this insulting for that matter yet you chose to do it to me. Is that all you people know how to do when you don't like what someone else has to say? Is it not possible to disagree without having to insult the inteligence of another person? With the exception of Col gene.

It seems that Bakerstreet is not the only one misunderstood here. How precise does one's words have to be to be understood? How do we express ourselves and try to say good things about someone with that person or others think the opposite? Oh well in the end I don't really care what you think of me or if you like what I have to say. This site was ment to express one's thoughts in a decent manner and was also created with blocking programs to lock out those you don't like. But your insults will not change my point of view or my way of expressing myself, in other words you don't like it, don't eat it. You can always try ignoring me.

DJBandit

on Dec 01, 2005

I think you are entirely right. See, when you're isolated from the civilian world the way Tex and I are, you get so accustomed to people doing their duty all the time that you tend to forget that the 'real world' doesn't operate quite like that.I'm not trying to downplay the honor aspect. Obeying orders and doing your duty IS an honorable thing to do. I'm simply saying that to tar every single service member with a patriotic brush is an error. Some people, like my husband and Sergeant Neale, go to war because that's part of their job, not because they want to. They do their jobs to primarily to provide for their family, not out of a sense of patriotism.

You are right about that and I appologize for the way I spoke. I myself did not see it that way either, being a civilian and not realizing that as a military family your life is not the same as mine. But can you answer this to me, did your husband ever think that joining the AF made him feel good that he was doing a service for his country or was it for the money since day one? And please don't take this as an insult of any kind, I simply am curious to know, it makes it easier to understand rather than to presume or assume and you know what they say about assume.

davad70

on Dec 01, 2005

You know you really should check your links better "before" you accuse "me" of not doing my research. Every link that you posted is from AFTER the war started (2003 to 2005)and we were in the process of "removing" Saddam. So unless you can provide either a picture or some link from before we went in, my comment about it being a lie stands!

You really are not very smart are you? Those stories talk about before and after and have quotes from iraqi women about how things have changed since Saddam was removed.

davad70

on Dec 01, 2005

Texas Wahine

on Dec 01, 2005

DJBandit:

Is it not possible to disagree without having to insult the inteligence of another person? With the exception of Col gene.

lol, we all have exceptions, don't we?

If you feel your comment was so pure and appropriate, why did you delete it? You can fool the people who didn't read it, but unfortunately, I saw it before you sent it to its cyberspace grave.

How precise does one's words have to be to be understood?

Pretty precise considering that this site relies primarily on communication via written word.

But your insults will not change my point of view or my way of expressing myself, in other words you don't like it, don't eat it. You can always try ignoring me.

Have I ever commented on any of your articles? I don't like what you have to say because you're a know-it-all jerk and it shows in your writing. I don't read your articles. In case you forgot, YOU didn't write this article.

DJBandit

on Dec 01, 2005

If you feel your comment was so pure and appropriate, why did you delete it? You can fool the people who didn't read it, but unfortunately, I saw it before you sent it to its cyberspace grave.

OK now you lost me. What, may I ask, are you talking about? I have never deleted anything from here that I can remember. Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else? Or maybe the moderator of the article deleted it. In all honesty I have no clue what you are talking about. Help me out here will ay?

Texas Wahine

on Dec 01, 2005

I have never deleted anything from here that I can remember.

It would be best for you to play the "that I can remember" card here, because you certainly DID delete a comment yesterday. You commented on THIS blog, then quickly deleted it and instead replied with:

What ParaTed2k said.

Our banter here isn't relevant to the article, so I'm going to leave it at that.

DJBandit

on Dec 01, 2005

Pretty precise considering that this site relies primarily on communication via written word.

If you say so.

I doubt you have since I have only written maybe 3 and only one of them was political, kinda. And as far as I remember I only got replies on one of them which was a gaming article. So I am still confused as to if you're sure I am the person you are upset with.

DJBandit

on Dec 01, 2005

To be honest I don't remember. Maybe I did, I'm not sure anymore. I am almost 100% positive I did not write anything on this article besides what I wrote.

What ParaTed2k said.

It's not to hard to remember when you click edit and a new screenn shows up. I don't recall editing. I hardly ever edit at all cause it gives me problems when I do. Besides what would I have to say bad about this article? If I agree with what Parated2k said then you either don't like what he said or you must be confusing me with someone else.

It would be best for you to play the "that I can remember" card here

At this point I personally don't care what you think about me. I try to be nice, I'm not here to make enemies, just to debate. I know it gets heated at times but we are mostly adults here and we shouldn't have to go to the extreme just because we don't agree. If you have some personal beef with (which I can't seem to figure out why) then that's fine. But next time you wanna accuse me of something hows about bringing some proof, it's what everyone here likes to do. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, just like I did a few post above with dharmagrl #33.

Look, I would really like to solve this issue. I don't want people upset with me when I don't know why. I know your a nice person and in the same situation as dharmagrl when it comes to the war. I only want to express my thoughts and feeling, not make enemies. So let me know what we can do to fix this, and I don't mean putting it to the side and forgetting about it.

dharmagrl

on Dec 01, 2005

But can you answer this to me, did your husband ever think that joining the AF made him feel good that he was doing a service for his country or was it for the money since day one?

He joined the service to finish college, get law enforcement training and experience, and to get out of the rinky dink little town he was born in. He said that he knew if he didn't get out of that town before he turned 21 that he would bury himself there....so he joined the Air Force. His original plan was to come in for 4 years, get the training and finish his degree, then get out and go work for a civilian police department.
However, the best laid plans sometimes go to waste....and I came along. We got married, we had kids, and he decided to re-enlist for another 4 years. Once, when his second enlistment was coming to an end, he had talked about getting out and had started looking at jobs in the civilian world. We worked out what we would need to make in order to have it be comprable to the pay and benefits the AF was giving him....and there simply wasn't anything available that would get us even close. You have to understand that we get 100% FREE medical services and prescription meds, we get half a million dollars life insurance on him for FREE, $200,000 on me for something like $20 a month, he gets a month paid vacation every year, we get a housing allowance ON TOP of his paycheck if we choose to live off base - to the tune of $1100 a month, if we live overseas we get a Cost Of Living Allowance, he gets a pay raise every year, he has job security, and now that he's staying in until retirement he's going to get 50% of his monthly base pay as a pension and FREE medical benefits for the rest of not only his life, but mine too....not to mention a valid military ID card that entitles us to free legal advice and assistance, commissary and BX privileges.

So, whilst it may briefly have been about patriotism (September 11th, 2001, he came home after having worked a 20 hour shift and told me with tears in his eyes that he had volunteered to go to Afghanistan - because he wanted to go put into action all of his training and skills in a real-world situation) it's not really about that any more. Don't get me wrong, he's proud of himself and his accomplishments, and he loves America.....but patriotism isn't his only reason for staying in. He deploys because it's his duty to do so, he goes to war because that's part of his job.

DJBandit

on Dec 01, 2005

Wow, it goes to show what people sometimes have to do to make a living. I'm sure he's a great person and you sound like one as well. I can't blame you for going off like a bomb when debating with someone about wars and soldiers. Like you I had a loved one (my brother) in the National Guard but then he got out just before the Gulf War and our biggest fear was that he would be called in if they needed him. Plus he also has a brother from his dads side that is a Navy Seal and was in Iraq recently. We were al worried about him so I too have an idea what it's like to have a family member be put in the line of fire.

But as I said before I will more careful about these discussions and take more into consideration the fact that I don't have a military life and that some people do and therefor our lifestyles can be very different at times if not always.

Thanx for the answer.

drmiler

on Dec 01, 2005

You really are not very smart are you? Those stories talk about before and after and have quotes from iraqi women about how things have changed since Saddam was removed.

More than likely "smarter" than you. Just in your first story alone I noted inconsistencies between it and what I posted in reply #30. On top of which I wouldn't believe any thing from SF. Mine's from wikipedia, an unbiased site. Too bad you can't say the same about SF. And your 3rd one? By Gregory Elrich? A self proclaimed "activist?

dharmagrl

on Dec 01, 2005

But as I said before I will more careful about these discussions and take more into consideration the fact that I don't have a military life and that some people do and therefor our lifestyles can be very different at times if not always.

And I in turn will try to NOT go off on people when they're slightly misinformed about the way the military works.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I'll do my best to answer them.

bakerstreet

on Dec 01, 2005

I did read your post, dharma, it led to the eventual throwing up my hands on the other blog. You seem to think the word "patriotism" means "I like war". On your blog you said:

"I'm simply saying that to tar every single service member with a patriotic brush is an error. Some people, like my husband and Sergeant Neale, go to war because that's part of their job, not because they want to. "

Once I saw that you were functioning on a totally different definition of "patriotism", I realized that discussing it with you was totally futile. I've explained and re-explained what I meant, specifically, and you just ignore it. Patriotism now has turned into a dirty "conservative" word, unlike being jaded and nihilistic like all the hip people. You have some very jaded, derivative definitions of the values I am talking about.

I say patriotism, idealism, and you hear an insult. There's not much I can do about that except mourn for what we are loosing as a species. The sad part is when you laud your husband and I laud your husband, we are talking about the EXACT same thing. When you talk about sticking it to anti-war protestors who abuse the troops, what you are standing up for is the exact same thing I am lauding.

You just have such a jaded, hippy-bullshit bias against anything that you have to call it something else to stomach it. Just my opinion; I was done, but you evidently needed to hear it again.

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