Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Steven Den Beste's essay
Published on January 28, 2006 By Draginol In Pure Technology

Steven Den Beste's site seems to be down but I had a copy fo an article he wrote some time ago that talks about the reason why Noah's Arc is a fairy tale.  There are many many reasons why Noah's Arc is fiction but this is one of the better arguments I've seen.

Steven's site is located here.

I just had the distinct displeasure of encountering someone who is a Biblical literalist (and who actually believes that all evidence supports the fairy tale of Noah's Ark). Let's review the story, briefly:

God decides that the human race is sinful and wants to destroy it. But Noah is virtuous and God warns him about the upcoming catastrophe and tells him to build an Ark (a big ship) and to load it with breeding stock of animals, so as to repopulate the earth. Noah does this, and with his wife and three sons and their wives embarks on the ship. God then covers the earth with water for 40 days and 40 nights, drowning all animals. (It's not completely clear how this would harm whales and seals, but let that go.) Then the water begins to recede and Noah's Ark grounds on Mount Ararat. He releases his animals and the world is repopulated.

This is ecological nonsense. If the whole flora of the world was released from a single point, most of it wouldn't survive and they sure wouldn't be found where they are today.

It's also genetic nonsense. There are a lot of ways of showing this, but one is particularly unambiguous: human Y chromosomes. Nearly all the genetic information each of us carries comes from both our parents. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes and one of each comes from our mothers and one from our fathers. One pair controls the sex of the child. One of these is normal sized and the other is extremely small (relatively speaking), and they're called "X" and "Y" respectively. (But the Y chromosome still carries millions of codons.)

In mammals, XX is female and XY is male. (This is not universal. In birds, XX is male and XY is female. In some insect species, females are diploid and males are haploid. And when you look at plants, sex isn't determined by genetics at all.)

Each human parent contributes 23 chromosomes to the baby, in egg and sperm. The egg always has an X chromosome and the sperm may have an X or a Y (unless there's an abnormality, about which more in a moment). If the sperm has an X then the resulting fertilized egg is XX, thus female. If the sperm has a Y then the fertilized egg is XY, male.

So the sperm cell determines the sex of the child (in mammals). But sometimes when the egg or sperm are formed there's a mistake, and they get more or less than 23 chromosomes. This can happen with any of the chromosomes. When it happens with the sex chromosomes you get individuals who may have three or one instead of the normal two.

If the egg forms wrong and has no X, and if the sperm cell has a Y, then you get a fertilized egg with a Y chromosome but no X chromosome. This egg isn't viable. The X chromosome contains genetic information without which a baby can't develop; the result is a miscarriage (so early, in fact, that the mother may not realize she's been pregnant).

The other three abnormal situations all result in children. If there's only one X chromosome ("Turner's syndrome") then the person looks female. XXY ("Kleinfelter's syndrome") is male. XYY (sometimes called the "supermale") is also male.

The development of male features is controlled by the presence of testosterone in the baby in the womb. This in turn is stimulated by the presence of the Y chromosome. There is, however, an extremely rare condition where the genes which describe the testosterone receptors are damaged, and in such an individual testosterone will be ignored even if it is present. The genes describing those receptors are not on the sex chromosomes but it's possible for them to be present in a person who has a Y chromosome, and if this happens the resulting person will look female. However, such a person will also be sterile, because no ovaries form.

The point is this: if a person is fertile and has a Y chromosome, then that person will be male.

I am male. I have a mother and a father. I got my X chromosome from my mother and my Y chromosome from my father.

Each of them also had two parents, so I have two grandfathers. My father's father gave his Y chromosome to my father. My mother's father gave his X chromosome to my mother.

I got my Y chromosome from my father and he got it from his father. I carry my paternal grandfather's Y chromosome. He got it from his father, and from his paternal grandfather, etc.

My mother got one of her two X chromosomes from her father and one from her mother. There's a 50% chance that the X chromosome I carry came from my maternal grandfather, but no chance whatever that I carry his Y chromosome. (He gave his Y chromosome to my mother's brother, but I'm not descended from my uncle.)

I have many male ancestors but my Y chromosome only came from one of them. I have many male ancestors but only one by strict patrilineal descent. They're the same person. That doesn't mean I have no genetic information from any of my other male ancestors; there are 22 other chromosomes to talk about and I may have gotten some of them from other men way back when. But the Y chromosome itself can only have come from one place, and it is from my strict patrilineal ancestor. My lineage from all my other male ancestors includes at least one intervening woman, and at that step their Y chromosomes were not passed on.

If any two men have the same strict patrilineal ancestor, no matter how far back, then those two men will have the same Y chromosome.

Which brings us back to Noah. According to the story, the ark carried 8 people: Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. Genetically only five are important, because the three sons carried no genetic information not present in Noah and his wife.

So if the story is true then the entire human race is descended from just five individuals. And four of them were women; Noah is the only man among the five. 10 sex chromosomes, and nine of them are X. Of the ten, only one was a Y. Noah carried it and passed it on to his three sons.

And they passed it on to their sons, and their grandsons, and great grandsons, and ultimately to all living men. So if the Noah story is true then every existing Y chromosome in men should be identical because they'll all be copies of the one carried by Noah.

And they aren't. Human Y chromosomes have been tested many times and they are not all the same. There is enormous variety among them. It is impossible for all human men to have the same strict patrilineal ancestor.

Therefore the Noah story is not true.

 


Comments (Page 4)
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on Jan 29, 2006

I guess I am missing the point as that is what I was saying.  Somewhere in time (since man did not spring from nothing to full population - unless you beleive the bible literally), a mutation occurred and man was born.  So we are all traced to a single point in time, whether it was 7 million, 250,000 or 10,000 years ago.  So in that respect, all males shared that Y chormosone at one time.  Or all apes.  or all fish, or all Ameobas.  Somewhere there is a single source. And they are not all the same now.

That's not how evolution works.  It's not that one day some ape gave birth to a human being due to a genetic mutation. 

Mutations can cause great change or tiny change. Great change tends to cause the organism to die and thus not pass the gene on.  Sometmes it doesn't and hence you do have a significant change.

But human evolution was generally more gradual. The change between generations was gradual enough that the "mutated" offspring is still biologically compatible (i.e. can mate). 

If one were to look at say Homo Erectus from 500,000 years ago, they'd pretty much look like a person. It's even possible they could have offspring with a human. But they weren't human. Not as we know it.

You can't really say we go back to a single point unless you want to trace it all the way back to the first organic life 2 billion years ago.  And for that, no one has a serious explanation for that (evolution doesn't go into the origin of life).

 

 

on Jan 29, 2006

Then he needs to tone down his hyperbole. It just smacks of ignorance.

And, as I mentioned, I don't disagree with that point actually, as I said I don't take the account literally. But using absolutes the way the article does completely weakens his argument.

He doesn't claim to be a professional writer.  But let me put it this way, I and many others who read it GOT IT.  We didn't read into it that he was claiming no variation in the chromosome.  Just that there wasn't nearly enough time from Noah's time for the kind of genetic variance that we have to show up.

 

on Jan 29, 2006

You can't really say we go back to a single point unless you want to trace it all the way back to the first organic life 2 billion years ago. And for that, no one has a serious explanation for that (evolution doesn't go into the origin of life).

But that is indeed my point.  Life did not spring up all over at once.  It started somewhere, some point in time. So somewhere, all Y chromosones were the same.  And like the mutation that begat man, the Y chromosone mutated as well.  And continues to do so.

on Jan 29, 2006
you would know it means Crap Happens, and not transporting poop.


stercus taurinum!

stercus accidit is a more apt rendition of 'shit happens'.
on Jan 29, 2006

stercus accidit is a more apt rendition of 'shit happens'.

I will tell my priest (since that is who told it to me - I do not do latin).  And I was trying to keep this PG, but at least you got the point.  Sorry for my latin ignorance.

on Jan 29, 2006
But let me put it this way, I and many others who read it GOT IT. We didn't read into it that he was claiming no variation in the chromosome


Though he did say "So if the Noah story is true then every existing Y chromosome in men should be identical because they'll all be copies of the one carried by Noah."

Last time I checked, the word 'identical' meant: exactly alike; incapable of being perceived as different.

So, he did, in fact claim there would be no variation, by stating the Y chromosomes would be 'identical'. His word, not mine.

See, I GOT the point of the article from the beginning. However, as someone who is a molecular biologist, I do take issue with the innacuracies in his argument. It just seems silly to mock another's beliefs with blatant inaccuracy. But, hey, whatever works for you.
on Jan 29, 2006
as someone who is a molecular biologist
Where'd you get your degree BlueDev?  Just curious.
on Jan 29, 2006
Well first of all, it takes more than 40 days or 40 weeks even to form a rock layer. More like 40,000 years.


Not really. During Noahs flood, volcanoes were going off...the earth was being covered with water...things were moving around at a pretty good pace. Under the right conditions...fossils can form fairly quickly.

Do I need to mention that fish wouldn't die in a global flood?


Nope...because they didn't.

Genesis 6:17 For behold, I, even I, will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy and make putrid all flesh under the heavens in which are the breath and spirit of life; everything that is on the land shall die.

Granted...lots of fish were natually killed by the flood and the receding waters afterwards...enough were left over to ensure that repopulatoin would occur.


Bakerstreet: As you can see, there are people who think that Noah's Ark actually occurred as mentioned literally in the bible.


Right...maybe Noah was an alien....and the Ark was a spaceship and all the animals were actually a whole bunch of goats so they could get their furry freak on....and get down and baaaaaaaaad.

But let me put it this way, I and many others who read it GOT IT.

Of course you are going to get it...if you are desperate enough to find anything that helps you try to disprove God and further your own personal belief that he doesnt exist...you are going to follow it...especially if it makes sense to you. Sort of like a guy jumping out of an airplane with a crap load of umbrellas...desperate to get his way...he tries to open anyone he can reach, until one works for him.
on Jan 29, 2006
Where'd you get your degree BlueDev? Just curious.


Utah State University-Cellular/Molecular Biology, along with 2 years research work in a molecular biology laboratory and 2 years of teaching organic, inorganic and biochemistry.


Have since decided to get my MD, graduate in May 2006.
on Jan 29, 2006

Have since decided to get my MD, graduate in May 2006.

Yea, and HC gets you!  Good for her, not for us!

on Jan 29, 2006
Have since decided to get my MD, graduate in May 2006.
What will you be specialized in?  I remember you mentioning speaking to the AUA in your blog.  Is Urology in your future?
on Jan 29, 2006
What will you be specialized in? I remember you mentioning speaking to the AUA in your blog. Is Urology in your future?


Yes, I just matched in Urology at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center, starting residency in June.
on Jan 29, 2006
"Bakerstreet: As you can see, there are people who think that Noah's Ark actually occurred as mentioned literally in the bible. "
Okay fine. Let's have a show of hands. How many people believe that the entire world was flooded, and that Noah got a pair of every land animal on the face of the earth on a relatively small ship. Now, be certain you understand, that's big scary bears in Alaska, kangaroos in Australia, pandas from China, those little wacky monkeys that like hottubbing in Japan. All of them, every single species that existed a few thousand years ago.

Okay, who here believes this as it is written? Not an altered version where only part of the world flooded and Noah just brought his livestock. I want to know here and now who in this conversation believes that Noah saved every single species on the face of the earth at that time, and that they were the only people left alive on earth.

No offense intended, and I promise not to scoff or try to dissuade you. I tend to suspend disbelief myself in terms of my faith, just in different areas. I would just really like to know how many people here believe the word-for-word Biblical account of Noah. My thinking is that no one here believes it in the exact way it is described. If anyone does, I wouldn't imagine it would be enough people to even consider addressing as a 'group'.

on Jan 29, 2006
What about the theory that "the flood" was actually the creation of the Black Sea? it was on a cable channel last month that i watched. They did find a city at the bottom of the Black Sea but they couldn't prove it was the city that the bible described. This seems much closer to what might have really happened. What do you think? If anyone else remembers this documentary please comment on it.
thks
tracy.
on Jan 29, 2006
I believe.

The God I worship, is an awesome and mighty God. He is powerful and He is good.

He created this world and everything in it. So why would I doubt He could control the content of a book?

If He says through His prophet the world was created in six days, I BELIEVE it. I may not understand it, but I believe. I refuse to try and box in a Holy and Mighty God based on our understanding of the sciences today.

Imagine if we tried to tell people two hundred years ago you could get from California to New York in 7 hours. They’d have laughed in our faces. They’d limit our information by their understanding of science and technology at the time. Heck I bet they’d even point to all the latest scientific data to prove us wrong.

The God worthy of my adoration and worship is powerful enough to destroy this planet with His word. Then turn around and rebuild a brand new one in less than a week.

As far as I’m concerned, science may never catch up to the Master scientist.

So if this mighty deity Who I know as only good in my life wants me to believe something I don’t understand…..

I believe.

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