Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
How far are you willing to bend to adhere to dogma?
Published on February 11, 2006 By Draginol In Religion

There has been an ongoing debate on another blog over whether the bible has contradictions on it.  On the one hand you have the skeptics. In the middle the realists. And on the other side, for lack of a better word, you have the dogmatics.

There are countless perceived contradictions in the bible. But whether they are truly a contradiction depends on how far you are willing to read between the lines. 

One of the most blatant contradictions in my opinion is the account of how Judas (the betrayer of Jesus) died.  In the book fo Matthew, Judas feels remorse for what he has done, throws his silver coins down and goes off and hangs himself.

But in the book of Acts, Judas keeps the money, acquires a field and falls headling and bursts open his body.

So how do you reconcile these differences?  In my opinion, a reasonable person would say "Oops. one of them is in error."  But to those who obsess over the literal accuracy of every word in the bible then nothing is beyond interpretting or extending to support your fanatical belief.

For example, with regarsd to Judas, the Christian Apologetics Ministry argues:

"There is no contradiction here at all because both are true.  A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.  In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open.  In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.
     Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging.  Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out.  Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does."

But that requires the reader to suspend belief beyond the point where any reasonable person could accept. Here's why:

1) Matthew states explicitly that Judas threw away the money and that the priests then took the money bought a field to bury strangers.  By contrast, Acts says that Judas bought the field and feel "headlong" and his bowels came out.

2) Some argue "well, he didn't die from hanging, that he may have fallen down and that's how he died."  This is really silly because it doesn't say he attempted to hang himself. He hanged himself. Period. If you're going to take the bible literally, you can't start adding your own spin on it.  And if you hang yourself, you don't fall head long. 

3) Another argument I've seen is that well, acts doesn't actually say he died. It just says his bowels gushed out. He may not have died from this.  Please.  At that point, it becomes meaningless.  You fall and your bowels come out, you die.

Common sense says that in one passage, Judas felt guilt, thew away the money, and hung himself.  And the other passage takes the irony path -- Judas the villain keeps the money, buys  a field and ironically dies horribly getting his just deserts.  One is a suicide, the other implies an accident which is a pretty important difference.

This is an age-old debate that pretty much boils down to seperating the zealots from the non-zealots.  After debating the issue myself, I decided to also look to see if others had debated this issue on-line.  In turns out, yep, this particular blatant contradiction has been argued many tiems before.

One writer who looked at it put it like this:

How do these verses contradict each other?

  1. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money to the priests before dying, then he went to hang himself. After that, the priests bought a field. In Acts, Judas used the money himself to buy a field.
  2. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money before dying, and then a field was bought. In Acts, the field was bought before Judas died.
  3. In Matthew, he died by hanging himself, whilst in Acts he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out.

How could an inerrantist Christian respond to these three points? Let me speculate on some possible counter-arguments.

As for point 1, one could infer that when Acts says that Judas bought the field, what is meant is that the priests bought the field on his behalf. This, however, is not permissible, since if one is allowed to change the meaning of the language, no significant discussion about the actual meaning of anything can be conducted. In ordinary language, we do not say that "this man purchased a field for $100" if someone else purchased it for their own usage with money thrown away by its original owner. Clearly, from Matthew, Judas did not give any order for the priests to buy a field for his money, and even if he did, why would they obey him, who they despised?

As for point 2, it seems hard to come up with a counter-argument, since the past tense is used in Matthew ("went and hanged himself"), implying that the execution of the deed had taken place before the purchase of the field. Meanwhile, Acts clearly presents the case where the field is bought prior to his dying (indeed, since he is said to have bought it himself!).

As for point 3, it is logically possible that the story in Acts is consistent with Matthew in terms of the method of dying, but it seems highly unlikely, from how his death is described. If one is to find consistency, one must include many things not in the text. Amongst other things, one wonders how the bowels could gush out simply from his having died by hanging, and one also wonders how he could fall headlong in a field, and where the tree came from (normally, there are no trees in the middle of a field).

Note that it suffices for only one of the three stated contradictions to hold for there to be a contradiction.

In other words, this isn't a new issue.  The handful of people who dogmatically cling to the belief that the Christian bible contains no contradictions have to be, in themselves, willing to essentially add new passages in the bible to fill in the missing gaps.  At which point, the whole argument becomes meaningless.

And this is just one of the more blatant ones. There are plenty of others.  Contradictions in the bible only are a problem if you take the bible literally rather than as a general guide.  Sadly, there are people who cling to the literal words as being infallible.  I personally think that those who do have much less faith than they let on.  If one truly has faith, then such contradictions would be easier to admit to and they'd be able to move on.

 


Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 12, 2006
How did Judas die, by hanging or falling down?
Matthew 27:3-8 and Acts 1:16-19



By hanging (Matthew 27:3-8) - "Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" 5And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. 6And the chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood." 7And they counseled together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."


By falling (Acts 1:16-19) - "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us, and received his portion in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.

Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does.




Link
on Feb 12, 2006

Well KFC, you show your usual laser-accurate ability to miss the obvious.

Did you read my blog at all?

You may note this part:

For example, with regarsd to Judas, the Christian Apologetics Ministry argues:

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true.  A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.  In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open.  In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.

Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging.  Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out.  Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does."

Next time, try reading what is written before responding. This blog was written in response to your regurgitated source and I even quoted it in the original blog.

on Feb 12, 2006
The Judas thing is a big deal to people...so let me throw this little item in the pot.

I forgot to fully develop one of my points: it is entirely possible (and likely) that Judas didn't "hang" himself by our definition of hanging. He may have impaled himself on a stake in the ground. This would not only be historially consistent, as Romans were known to promote this means of death and used it as a form of capital punishment, later to be superceded by Crucifixion, but would also reconcile the Biblical record.

Just food for thought.
on Feb 12, 2006
There is no contradiction here at all


You can keep saying that all the live long day but it doesn't make it so. One account says he was remorseful, gave up the money and hanged himself. The other says he bought the field with his ill gotten money and fell and died.

With your explaination KFC, was there a tree in the field? How tall was the tree for Judas to be so high up that his bowels would spill out when he hit the ground? How exactly does one fall headlong from being hanged?

You want the two to be consistant with each other but they simply aren't. One describes a man that felt sorry for his betrayal and took his own life. The other describes a man who went ahead and used his ill gotten money to buy a field in which, it may be inferred that he was smote in.

But I am only reiterating what is already in the body of this blog since you apparently didn't read it in the first place.
on Feb 12, 2006
it is entirely possible (and likely) that Judas didn't "hang" himself by our definition of hanging. He may have impaled himself on a stake in the ground


This example doesn't change a thing if you take into consideration all of the points already made.
on Feb 12, 2006
With your explaination KFC, was there a tree in the field? How tall was the tree for Judas to be so high up that his bowels would spill out when he hit the ground? How exactly does one fall headlong from being hanged?


Well if he hanged himself I would say there most likely was a tree to do it on. How tall? How can we know that? I don't know. How does one fall? Two thoughts here. One just the gravity of a heavy body hanging for some time and giving way or the rotting corpse falling below after hanging for a period of time.

You want the two to be consistant with each other but they simply aren't


Well I think they are. What I see that is consistant in scripture is that you have to piece together all the time to get the whole story. That's why Christ said to "search" the scripture and refered to scripture as a treasure. Rarely do you see the whole story in one context. Somewhere else is another piece that fits there but you have to leave to find it. Here with the death of Judas, Matthew wrote his part and Luke filled in the rest. This is quite common thru scripture.

When you read John's account for example you see that his gospel fills in what the others left out. He wrote many years after the first three and his gospel is complimentary to what the others wrote.

You want the two to be consistant with each other but they simply aren't. One describes a man that felt sorry for his betrayal and took his own life


My feeling about Judas is that he just saw his hopes dashed. He put all his hopes and dreams in this man Jesus in that he would bring the Kingdom then and there. It didn't quite work out the way he planned. Now after spending more than 3 yrs with this close knit group...he was out of the loop. He was despondent. Compare to Peter. Peter denied Christ but he took the path to repentence where Judas took the path that led to rebellion. Two men, two choices, two different destinies.

But I am only reiterating what is already in the body of this blog since you apparently didn't read it in the first place.


Yes, I read it.
on Feb 12, 2006
Next time, try reading what is written before responding. This blog was written in response to your regurgitated source and I even quoted it in the original blog.


You know it wouldn't hurt to just try to be nice ya know?

Yes I'm impressed that you went to CARM actually. Just for your info...I went to CARM after I answered your question on my blog. I went to see if Matt Slick had any other things I may have left out. I don't run there to get answers unless it's something I haven't thought of for a while or want more info to go with what I already know or have.

I find tho that Matt Slick does have similar answers to what I would give. I haven't seen anything I disagree with him on yet. His thinking is quite close to many evangelicals today.
on Feb 12, 2006

I forgot to fully develop one of my points: it is entirely possible (and likely) that Judas didn't "hang" himself by our definition of hanging. He may have impaled himself on a stake in the ground. This would not only be historially consistent, as Romans were known to promote this means of death and used it as a form of capital punishment, later to be superceded by Crucifixion, but would also reconcile the Biblical record.

No it wouldn't because in one version, Judas felt no remorse and used his money to buy land and then died in the fled. In the other, preists bought land AFTER Judas had already hung himself (note the past tense in the passage). 

No matter what, one has to reinterpret the bible.

on Feb 12, 2006

You know it wouldn't hurt to just try to be nice ya know?

Yes I'm impressed that you went to CARM actually. Just for your info...I went to CARM after I answered your question on my blog. I went to see if Matt Slick had any other things I may have left out. I don't run there to get answers unless it's something I haven't thought of for a while or want more info to go with what I already know or have.

I find tho that Matt Slick does have similar answers to what I would give. I haven't seen anything I disagree with him on yet. His thinking is quite close to many evangelicals today.

I'll make you a deal, I'll be nice to you once you start showing a little bit of respect to the people you talk to. 

Respect would start by not being so blatantly closed minded that you can't be bothered to even read other people's words who don't share your point of view.  It's like you consciously ignore things you don't want to hear.

I deal with people like you regularly. They're usually men ironically.  People who speak and are so certain of their correctness that they are almost impatient about other people talking because it is merely getting in the way of THEIR talking.  Other people's words ae just noise to them. 

You may be totally oblivious to that but I find it highly disrespectful and as I said on your blog -- arrogant and obnoxious. 

Now, that said, you didn't "answer" my question on your blog.  You attempted to insert your own brand new passages into the bible in order to explain the descrepancy.  That is, that Judas hung himself, the rope broke, and he went plop.  First problem being -- you made that part up.  The bible doesn't say anything like that. You inferred it (and it doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny anyway).

Secondly, his explaination has numerous problems as I describe here.  If something this obvious can't be considered a contradiction by you and those who feel as you do, then contradiction is not possible, you will always find a way to invent or contrive some fill in the blank explanation that defies all logic as well as requires reading more into the bible than one would expect.

on Feb 12, 2006
I'll make you a deal, I'll be nice to you once you start showing a little bit of respect to the people you talk to.


Can you elaborate here? When have I shown you any disrespect?

Now, that said, you didn't "answer" my question on your blog


What question might you be referring to? I try to answer as many as I can. I may not have toned in on something you asked. Now can you repeat the question? Maybe I thought I answered it?

Now, that said, you didn't "answer" my question on your blog. You attempted to insert your own brand new passages into the bible in order to explain the descrepancy. That is, that Judas hung himself, the rope broke, and he went plop. First problem being -- you made that part up.


I'm just taking the two passages and putting together. Matthew wrote his version and Luke added a few more facts. When put together....that's what I see. You choose to see that it contradicts. We will have to agree to disagree here.

Like Matt said above.....one does not exclude the other. Now if one said, he hung himself and another said he drowned when he fell off a boat. Then I would have a big problem.

Another supposed contradiction in scripture is the angels at the tomb. One says there was an angel and another says there were two. Here again One does not exclude the other. If one said there was ONLY one angel and the other said there were TWO angels then again...I'd have a problem.

I still don't feel the love here.....
on Feb 12, 2006
Well if he hanged himself I would say there most likely was a tree to do it on. How tall? How can we know that? I don't know. How does one fall? Two thoughts here. One just the gravity of a heavy body hanging for some time and giving way or the rotting corpse falling below after hanging for a period of time.


See, again your comprehension skills are hit and miss KFC. I didn't ask "How does one fall?" I asked "How does one fall HEAD LONG from being hanged?" Big difference. So, if he were a rotting corpse that had been hanging for a long period of time to allow easy rupture and spillage on contact, he couldn't have taken the dive position to end up head long. The question about how tall the tree would be pertained to the fact that if he were to dive out of the hanging position some how, he would have to be pretty high up to hit with such an impact to have his bowels spill out. You just don't want to see the problem with that.

You admitted that you put the two accounts together and came up with what you saw. You are applying your own surmision and not taking the words at their given meaning. Given your ability to get what people right here on this blog have said wrong, don't you think it is possible you don't have everything right about the bible?

Again though, if you believe in your heart that you are correct, good for you. You just aren't good at arguing the facts.
on Feb 12, 2006
To play the devil's... ur... the Bible's advocate, in Acts it says:

"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."


Now the Bible here relates what Peter said that day, not a play-by-play of what actually happened to Judas. Is it possible that Peter didn't really know the details of what happened? Peter lied earlier when he denied Jesus, so maybe Peter lied then, too. Or maybe Peter was wrong in Acts, or maybe he was just winging it. Like Paul, later, when he tells people that some of the things he says are basically his opinion.

As for the order in Matthew, it says:

"[3] Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[4] Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
[5] And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
[6] And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
[7] And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
[8] Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. "


Does it really look like they are stating for sure that the field was bought before Judas died? It doesn't seem to be promoting any order to the events, really. It doesn't say he hung himself from the rafters, or a tree, or tied the rope to the top of some tower and fell 50 feet before the rope caught, tore off his head, and the rest of his body fell and splattered on the ground.

The old Testament tells about David getting the guy killed to take his wife. Does that mean God wants us to kill people to take their wives? Or is it an ACCOUNT of what one guy did? Is Acts supposed to be an accurate reiteration of previous material, or an account of what was happening and what Peter in this one section said?

In terms of refuting the literal truth of the Bible, it is a bad example. Nothing there really says "What Peter says here is the total and unquestionable truth". It is just relating what happened, isn't it?

Again, I'm not promoting the perfection of the Bible as God's word. I don't believe in any such. I think the circumstances of what the Bible is, and how it is put together, and the fact that no one really said it was SUPPOSED to be perfect is plenty to question that.
on Feb 12, 2006
P.S. If you really want to dig into the whole thing at a fundamental level, what about the part in Luke where it says:

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."


So was it Judas or Satan that was responsible? In the Old Testament it says that God 'hardened the heart' of the Pharoh when Moses demanded that he let the Israelites go. Does that mean that God CHOSE for the Pharoh to refuse and get all the firstborn in Egypt killed?

There's a lot of meat for discussion without having to get into details. Try Job, too.
on Feb 12, 2006
All good points in question. I have know beef with taking the bible as a collection of stories to learn from. I only have problems with people who proclaim it is the end all be all and that it has NO CONTRADICTIONS. The same people who declare that the bible was written by eyewitnesses who all have consistant stories of what happened.
on Feb 12, 2006
" All good points in question. I have know beef with taking the bible as a collection of stories to learn from. I only have problems with people who proclaim it is the end all be all and that it has NO CONTRADICTIONS. "

But that's kind of my point. This doesn't have to be a contradiction. It's just telling you what Peter said to the audience in Acts. It doesn't really say that he was correct, or wasn't lying, or might have been mistaken. It just says he said it. You can see around here people claim other people said this and that, with the words a few posts above he input box, and still get it wrong, lol.

I'm not trying to make the issue cloudy, just saying that sometimes when people drop to this level of detail they start overlooking the more obvious reasons why the Bible might not be perfect, like the fact that no one ever really claimed it was in the first place. At least the people who wrote the material collected in it. If the first account got it right, and Peter was just mistaken, does that refute anything? Other than Peter's care for accuracy?

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