Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
How far are you willing to bend to adhere to dogma?
Published on February 11, 2006 By Draginol In Religion

There has been an ongoing debate on another blog over whether the bible has contradictions on it.  On the one hand you have the skeptics. In the middle the realists. And on the other side, for lack of a better word, you have the dogmatics.

There are countless perceived contradictions in the bible. But whether they are truly a contradiction depends on how far you are willing to read between the lines. 

One of the most blatant contradictions in my opinion is the account of how Judas (the betrayer of Jesus) died.  In the book fo Matthew, Judas feels remorse for what he has done, throws his silver coins down and goes off and hangs himself.

But in the book of Acts, Judas keeps the money, acquires a field and falls headling and bursts open his body.

So how do you reconcile these differences?  In my opinion, a reasonable person would say "Oops. one of them is in error."  But to those who obsess over the literal accuracy of every word in the bible then nothing is beyond interpretting or extending to support your fanatical belief.

For example, with regarsd to Judas, the Christian Apologetics Ministry argues:

"There is no contradiction here at all because both are true.  A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another.  In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open.  In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.
     Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging.  Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out.  Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does."

But that requires the reader to suspend belief beyond the point where any reasonable person could accept. Here's why:

1) Matthew states explicitly that Judas threw away the money and that the priests then took the money bought a field to bury strangers.  By contrast, Acts says that Judas bought the field and feel "headlong" and his bowels came out.

2) Some argue "well, he didn't die from hanging, that he may have fallen down and that's how he died."  This is really silly because it doesn't say he attempted to hang himself. He hanged himself. Period. If you're going to take the bible literally, you can't start adding your own spin on it.  And if you hang yourself, you don't fall head long. 

3) Another argument I've seen is that well, acts doesn't actually say he died. It just says his bowels gushed out. He may not have died from this.  Please.  At that point, it becomes meaningless.  You fall and your bowels come out, you die.

Common sense says that in one passage, Judas felt guilt, thew away the money, and hung himself.  And the other passage takes the irony path -- Judas the villain keeps the money, buys  a field and ironically dies horribly getting his just deserts.  One is a suicide, the other implies an accident which is a pretty important difference.

This is an age-old debate that pretty much boils down to seperating the zealots from the non-zealots.  After debating the issue myself, I decided to also look to see if others had debated this issue on-line.  In turns out, yep, this particular blatant contradiction has been argued many tiems before.

One writer who looked at it put it like this:

How do these verses contradict each other?

  1. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money to the priests before dying, then he went to hang himself. After that, the priests bought a field. In Acts, Judas used the money himself to buy a field.
  2. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money before dying, and then a field was bought. In Acts, the field was bought before Judas died.
  3. In Matthew, he died by hanging himself, whilst in Acts he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out.

How could an inerrantist Christian respond to these three points? Let me speculate on some possible counter-arguments.

As for point 1, one could infer that when Acts says that Judas bought the field, what is meant is that the priests bought the field on his behalf. This, however, is not permissible, since if one is allowed to change the meaning of the language, no significant discussion about the actual meaning of anything can be conducted. In ordinary language, we do not say that "this man purchased a field for $100" if someone else purchased it for their own usage with money thrown away by its original owner. Clearly, from Matthew, Judas did not give any order for the priests to buy a field for his money, and even if he did, why would they obey him, who they despised?

As for point 2, it seems hard to come up with a counter-argument, since the past tense is used in Matthew ("went and hanged himself"), implying that the execution of the deed had taken place before the purchase of the field. Meanwhile, Acts clearly presents the case where the field is bought prior to his dying (indeed, since he is said to have bought it himself!).

As for point 3, it is logically possible that the story in Acts is consistent with Matthew in terms of the method of dying, but it seems highly unlikely, from how his death is described. If one is to find consistency, one must include many things not in the text. Amongst other things, one wonders how the bowels could gush out simply from his having died by hanging, and one also wonders how he could fall headlong in a field, and where the tree came from (normally, there are no trees in the middle of a field).

Note that it suffices for only one of the three stated contradictions to hold for there to be a contradiction.

In other words, this isn't a new issue.  The handful of people who dogmatically cling to the belief that the Christian bible contains no contradictions have to be, in themselves, willing to essentially add new passages in the bible to fill in the missing gaps.  At which point, the whole argument becomes meaningless.

And this is just one of the more blatant ones. There are plenty of others.  Contradictions in the bible only are a problem if you take the bible literally rather than as a general guide.  Sadly, there are people who cling to the literal words as being infallible.  I personally think that those who do have much less faith than they let on.  If one truly has faith, then such contradictions would be easier to admit to and they'd be able to move on.

 


Comments (Page 4)
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on Feb 13, 2006
You also aren't answering any of the harder questions, like whoever claimed the Bible was infallible in the first place? The Bible you are referring to was collected hundreds, and sometimes thousands of years after the material was written.


Well Baker, I'm not one to run away from any questions so I'm not sure where I have but here I am and I'll try my best to answer. Thousands tho? It's only been two thousand years since Christ left the earth. How could it be thousands? We know Martin Luther left the CC as a result of reading the same scriptures we have now in 1517. That's almost 500 yrs ago.

First the bible that I know was written over a period of 1500 years by about 40 different authors of all walks. By 325 the bible as we have it today was collected and put together.

The canon was formed as each book was written. The formation of the canon was only a recognition of these books. These books were canonical before any tests were put to them. The tests only prove what was there. It's like saying a certain student is very intelligent before any test is given to him. The test just reveals this.

The OT books were put together by Ezra in the 5th Century BC. The Jewish scribes kept meticulous care of thes OT scrolls.
Jesus himself gave credibility to these books. He not only quoted from them he made it clear they were to be read.

In Luke 24:44 he told his disciples that the scriptures must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning him. By saying what he did he indicated the three sections into which the Hebrew Bible was divided...the Law, the Prophets and the "Writings".

Also in Luke 11:51 "From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah" Jesus here confirms his witness to the extent of the OT canon. Abel was the first martyr and Zechariah is the last martyr to be named in the OT. Basically he was saying all spoke about him from Genesis to the end of the OT scriptures.

He also got up in the temple and read from Isaiah and stopped in mid sentence (for a reason) and it said he shut the book before he said..."Today this has been fulfilled in your ears." Luke 4

At the end of Luke it says "Then he opened their understanding that they might understand the scriptures." 24:45

In John it said that Jesus is the "word" and that the "word" dwelt among us. That's why the sciptures come alive we read them. It's more than just words on paper. It's Christ come alive.

Also I'm sure you know what Peter said in 2 Peter 1:20. "Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Holy...means set apart.

Timothy said. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine......

inspiration means breathed out by God.

Notice what Jesus did to his disciples before he went up.

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, Receive you the Holy Spirit." John 20:22

So to answer your question I would say that Jesus, Peter and Timothy verified the infallibility of scipture.
on Feb 13, 2006
Also I'm sure you know what Peter said in 2 Peter 1:20. "Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


Then why is there so much interpretation involved? I have heard many interpretations including your own just here on JU.

In John it said that Jesus is the "word" and that the "word" dwelt among us.


That could just mean that Jesus was spreading the word of God. That certainly doesn't have to mean that the bible has to be taken literally.

Thousands tho? It's only been two thousand years since Christ left the earth. How could it be thousands?


More than one thousand is the plural of thousand so two thousand would still qualify as thousands. Reading comprehension again.
on Feb 13, 2006
The OT books were put together by Ezra in the 5th Century BC.


Sounds like that qualifies as thousands of years ago.
on Feb 13, 2006

Then why is there so much interpretation involved? I have heard many interpretations including your own just here on JU.


What Peter was saying was that scripture interprets itself. That's why I keep saying there are no contradictions. The answers are in there somewhere. We need to search them out. Not all the answers are there tho. We don't know the "whys" of scripture quite often. Why did God do this? Why did God do that? He only gave us what he wanted us to know. Someday I believe it will all make sense. Until then...we see thru a glass darkly.

My being involved in many different groups over the years taught me that many do interpret the scriptures as you said. They ignore certain scriptures to further an agenda to do so. That's why there are so many out there.

Jesus is the "logos" He is the word. If you go all the way to REV 19 you see he has a sword coming from his mouth when he returns. In scripture the sword represents the "word of God." I take this to mean that we will be judged by HIS word and what we did with it. He is not separate from it. He is the Logos. Since the sword is double edged I believe that means one side cuts to bleed and the other cuts to bless.
on Feb 13, 2006
What Peter was saying was that scripture interprets itself. That's why I keep saying there are no contradictions.


But can't you see that that is your interpretation? Look how many different denominations of christians there are due to interpretation of the bible. How do you know you have the correct one? All can't be right unless it doesn't have to be taken literally. Perhaps it is like others have said, we will be judged on our intent. Even if you are wrong in your method, i.e. taking the bible literally, your intent is to serve God in every way you can. Others may have the same intent but are going about it with different methods. Who, other than God, is to say who has it right?
on Feb 13, 2006
Either you believe that the Bible is a manmade work, and therefore that it is only arond 500 years old, as you say, or you believe that it is a book fashioned by God through men. If that is the case then it is most certainly a book thousands of years in the making.

Here's my problem. When you say:


"So to answer your question I would say that Jesus, Peter and Timothy verified the infallibility of scipture."


1)You have to assume that when Timothy said that, he was vouching both for words that Paul was putting in letters to Corinth, and what he and everyone else was saying, much of which he probably never heard. He was basically establishing the holiness of statements of people as trustworthy as Peter, who denied Christ only a bit earlier.

2) You have to assume they are vouching for those who copied, recopied, translated, and chose which texts were the "official" canon, over the course of hundreds of years, amid struggles that used religion to cement political and economic power.

3) You have to assume that when they talk about 'scripture', that they knew you'd assume they meant the Bible, which didn't exist for a long time after. Most certainly what they read and called scripture wasn't very similar at all to our Old Testament, so we have to assume they meant our scripture, and not theirs.

4)Finally, and most importantly, you have to assume that they are staking the very souls of people on the perfection of material and the translation thereof, that did not exist and that they had never read or reviewed. That requires precognition and a link to God that they, themselves never even claimed to have.

on Feb 13, 2006
It would be like me writing an article for a magazine that I knew wouldn't be printed for a thousand years. I know that it won't be printed in my language, and I know that much of it will be passed around in vague oral forms for hundreds of years until people don't really know which is the right version.

Yet, I still bet the souls of the people who later read it on my assertion that it is the word of God? ...and not just my article, but every article in the magazine, many which I will never get to read or know the content of, or even who wrote them.

Why would they tell their peers at the time things about a book that wouldn't exist for another 1500 years? Did they mean the Torah, and said it so that it handily ended up referring to other works later?

Did they really ever consider that their words would be called "scripture" and if they had known, would they have bet people's souls on such being infallible? I tend to think not.
on Feb 13, 2006
Did they really ever consider that their words would be called "scripture" and if they had known, would they have bet people's souls on such being infallible? I tend to think not.


Wow, excellent point!
on Feb 13, 2006

Either you believe that the Bible is a manmade work, and therefore that it is only arond 500 years old, as you say, or you believe that it is a book fashioned by God through men. If that is the case then it is most certainly a book thousands of years in the making.


Oh I agree it's a book thousands of years in the making. I was referring to what you said here:

The Bible you are referring to was collected hundreds, and sometimes thousands of years after the material was written.


By the time Jesus was walking the earth the OT scriptures were gathered all together. Then about 300 years later they were put together with the NT letters and epistles to make what we have here now. The canon was more or less just a formal sorting of what was inspired by God among the many books being written around that time.

He was basically establishing the holiness of statements of people as trustworthy as Peter, who denied Christ only a bit earlier.


I don't believe or mean to imply these men were little gods or anything. They were inspired only in their writings and gifted by the HS for the beginning of the church. They have no other writings outside of scripture. They were ordinary men that God used for a purpose to accomplish what he wanted. Remember God says that he choses the weak things of this world to confound the wise. We would chose differently. We would look for the brightest and the best. God doesn't look at the outside...he looks at the heart. He doesn't want a self made man...he wants one that will listen to his words. A man after his heart

You have to assume that when they talk about 'scripture', that they knew you'd assume they meant the Bible, which didn't exist for a long time after. Most certainly what they read and called scripture wasn't very similar at all to our Old Testament, so we have to assume they meant our scripture, and not theirs.


When they were talking scriptures they were talking OT. That's all that was around then. That's why you see them quoting the OT all the time. Basically saying the OT was telling the truth and we testify of this. Jesus is the promised one the OT scriptures promised. The bible is just the books put all together. Bible is biblios which means "little books."

In reality not only did the Bible not exist, many of the books didn't, and many books that they might have known might not have been included.


Not sure what you mean here. The bible as we know it now is a collection of the OT writings that Jesus as well as the NT writers quoted from. It wasn't called the "bible" but it was protected and preserved to be collected in the form of a canon later. By the time John died...all the books were written. So by 90-95 AD or so they were all there. The letters of Paul were circulating the churches at the time.

What do you do with 2 Peter 3:14-16? Notice the word "his epistles" in v16? Basically Peter here is putting Pauls epistles on a par with the other scriptures.

You are attributing great power to these folks. To me, if such a plan had been in the works, we'd have had some clue of it. As it stands, there are a lot of assumptions there that Timothy might not have wanted you to make.


No the power belongs to God. He as Timothy wrote and I showed you Jesus did "breathe" on them. It was the power of the HS. They had no special powers. God moved in their hearts and minds to put his words on paper. Jesus said this would happen and all things would come into their rememberance when he left them.

I believe just like the OT scriptures came true in the person of Christ. The NT ones will as well. Actually I see truth everyday when I read it. The things written are so true. The words do not ring hollow.

If you want to call God the author, and believe that every word in it is perfect, I respect your right to do so


Thank you. That's the first time I've really heard that here. I appreciate that.

Shalom!!
on Feb 13, 2006
If you want to call God the author, and believe that every word in it is perfect, I respect your right to do so


Thank you. That's the first time I've really heard that here. I appreciate that.


I've said that also only I pointed out that you can't prove it is so. You can believe it, you absolutely have the right to believe it, but you can't prove it any more than others can prove you are incorrect. I have never once said you are wrong in your belief. I merely pointed out that you can't prove it.

There is nothing that I can prove about my religious beliefs and I certainly can't disprove anyone else's. And whether you will admit it or not, we are all in the same boat in that respect.
on Feb 13, 2006
Did they really ever consider that their words would be called "scripture" and if they had known, would they have bet people's souls on such being infallible? I tend to think not.


Again Peter called Paul's writings scriptures and put on par with the OT writings.

"As also in all his epistles (Paul)speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to be understood which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle as they do also the other scriptures unto their own destruction."

I see Peter clearly saying that just like they wrestle with the OT scriptures they also will with Paul's scriptures and to their own destruction.

What about 2 Tim 3:15? "And from a child you have known the holy scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

I don't think it's any different today. Scriptures make us wise. They teach us what we need to know about Christ. Paul said...follow me as I follow Christ. Why would it be different for us today?
on Feb 14, 2006
"By the time Jesus was walking the earth the OT scriptures were gathered all together..."


Yet the OT that you hold is not the same one they held in Jesus's time.

The Hebrew OT that Josephus refers to includes 22 books. One of the things the Pharisees used to argue about was whether certain books were inspired or just history. The first reference we have to the 24 book Hebrew canon isn't until a couple of centuries after Jesus's death. Even now, our protestant OT has 39 books, not 24, since we busted things up a bit.

In addition, the wording of our OT is not the same as that of the Torah. You would say "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and yet we find the Torah to be translated as "Thou shalt not (or sometimes 'do no') murder." Really Big Difference.

When we are talking about every word being perfect, which ones do they mean? We can just look at the Hebrew Torah and see that we changed things after Jesus. How did those they were addressing know to go with our 'perfect' modern version and not what they had, since it didn't exist yet?

"By the time John died...all the books were written. So by 90-95 AD or so they were all there. The letters of Paul were circulating the churches at the time."


Even if you could prove that the books of the New Testament existed as they are now, sans translation, you're still saying that the authors were attesting to material that wasn't written when they said what you quoted. There's probably no way Timothy would have been able to attest to the perfection of the Revelation of John since most believe it was written after he was killed, and certainly after what you quoted.

He might have had faith that John would do a good job, but a couple of apostles had surprised them before, too. Dicey in terms of gambling the souls of millions for thousands of years thereafter. Even if our dates are wrong, how could they have said these things after all the books were finished, unless they went back in and added their assertions?

There was no collected "New Testament" as we would recognize it until the 300's, and frankly people disagreed on what should be in there for hundreds of years thereafter, as the Pharisees had before them about the OT. So just saying 'scriptures' would have been interpreted as what you bumped into, and many popular works of the time were rejected later when they made the Old and New Testament.

As I said, there's no reason you can't believe what you do. You can't justify it with anything but faith, though. When you start saying that you can prove it WITH scripture, you open the floodgates for discussions like we are having here. That's something you just believe in SPITE of your logic.

Then, when details are questioned, all you really have to say is "Nope, I don't understand why that appears to be wrong, but it isn't since the Bible is perfect"... which drives people mad with annoyance.

At that point, no matter where your 'still small voice' leads you, you have to work within the constraints of a book that you have no evidence, whatsoever, is infallible. Can you see how dangerous, and frankly idolatrous that that appears to be to me and others? Can you see how everything, from holy inspiration to your own conscience suddenly becomes secondary to The Word, since in the end anything that defies it is wrong.

That's why people, when they saw "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", swallowed their conscience and did what they saw in black and white. Ugly things can happen.
on Feb 14, 2006
Wait, sorry, brain fart.

When you said Timothy, I assumed you meant Timothy said that, and in reality the Timothy I and II are really letters TO Timothy, aren't they? Attributed to Paul? So I guess it would have been Paul, and not Timothy. I see now you were referring to the book Timothy, and not the person.

But my point would stand anyway, regardless. In order for them to attest to the perfection of the New Testament, they'd have had to read it all, and unless they all got together to proofread first, and then sign off on it, I dunno how they could have since they sign off on it IN the New Testament.

Given that it had to be translated much later, only faith can lead you to the belief that they knew what it was going to be before it actually became what it is. The facts would lead you to other conclusions.
on Feb 14, 2006
In addition, the wording of our OT is not the same as that of the Torah. You would say "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and yet we find the Torah to be translated as "Thou shalt not (or sometimes 'do no') murder." Really Big Difference.


BakerStreet, That is a ENORMOUS difference. I just want to really emphasize your point here.

One thing that I am finding interesting and I am not sure if you will agree with me on this is our ability to comprehend. Everything we read, everything we say, everything we do, and everything we hear are all processed with a relational database of our own personal experiences and a collective non-internal experiences. It is hard to see the other side of things when we have not gone through it. I will not ever truly understand what it is like to grow up in a physically abusive house. I can only take what someone tells me about their experience in it add that with many other testimonies make a collective non-internal experiences including observations and try to create a picture of what it is like but I will not be able to duplicate one's experience. This is also true about scriptures. I grew up with the impression that the father's of the OT were these GREAT MEN OF G-D! Now after a period of walking away and living my own way coming back, I no longer see them the same way. Abraham a great man of faith doubted G-D. Jacob was a man who was VERY unsure about what he believed. As my experiences have changed so have my views of scripture. Not sure what you all agree with me on this.

AD
on Feb 14, 2006
KFC and Baker, really good debate! Kudos.

only faith can lead you to the belief that they knew what it was going to be before it actually became what it is. The facts would lead you to other conclusions.


Faith can and has lead people to different conclusions for as long as the bible has been around. That is why I always get sick of people assuming I haven't read it merely because I have different opinions concerning it. Whether I agree with someone's faith or not, I respect them if they live according to their faith.

KFC, you sound like someone who practices what they preach. I commend you for that. I don't even blame devout christians for evangelizing. That doesn't mean I have to like it though

The way I see the contradictions brought up in this blog, they can't be reconciled without faith. You have to have faith in order to make assertions that lead you to believe that it all "works together". If you are going strictly by logic and strictly by what is actually printed, they don't add up.
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