Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
My review and experience with it
Published on May 1, 2005 By Draginol In Home Improvement

If you decide you want to finish your basement there are lots of options to consider.  Do you do it yourself? Do you contract it out? Maybe do a little in between? For me and my wife, we just aren't handy enough to try to finish a basement on our own.  So we decided we'd contract the whole thing out.

Once you decide you're going to contract it out, then it's a matter of deciding what direction to take with it. Do you go with drywall? The problem with drywall is that it takes months to put in (how long do you want contractors going in and out of your house?).  It makes a lot of mess (expects months if not years of drywall dust to be floating around your house), it's susceptible to damage from a wide range of sources (water, normal wear and tear due to it being in a basement).  So we wanted our basement finished but drywall had a lot of negatives to it.

That's when we heard about the Owens Corning Basement System.  After intense negotiations, we had it done.  And below you can read about our experiences during the sales process, installation, and after effects.  I hope you find it useful.

The Owens Corning Basement System has been in place now for our basement for about a month now so I've had time to get used to it.

The project went pretty smoothly except for a few hiccups that I'll talk about here. So what's the verdict? Here are the things I really liked about it:

  1. It's fast. In 2 weeks it's all done.
  2. It's clean. No dry wall dust all over.
  3. It's durable. It's virtually impossible to damage. Basements, unlike the rest of the house, are more prone to dings since that's where most people store things too.
  4. It's virtually sound proof. This was an unexpected benefit. But the kids can go and play down there without having to hear music, TV, yelling throughout the house.
  5. It looks pretty nice still (but not as nice as dry wall in my opinion).
  6. It is nice to know that in 20 years it'll look the same as today. Dry wall in basements tend to not look so good. At best you'll have to repaint larger areas. With this, you don't have to.

The big thing for us though was the speed of it. My first basement was done with dry wall and I have no regrets about that. It was nicely done. But it took months to do and over a year for the house to stop having more dust in it than before. The dry wall dust simply gets everywhere.

If you're as unhandy as me, then you likely want contractors to do pretty much all the building. It can be uncomfortable having strangers in your house for months. In contrast, the Owens Corning Basement System was installed in our roughly 1100 to 1200 square foot area in about 2 weeks (closer to 10 days).

In short, I was willing to pay a premium to not have to deal with a summer of construction. The fact that it looks nice and can't be damaged easily was a real bonus. My 3 year old already put that to the test by taking a permanent marker to one of the walls. In a few minutes we were able to wipe it off with some bleach and you can't even tell where it was. Contrast that to having to repaint that area with a dry wall basement. Not to mention all the nicks and gouges that would be there due to moving stuff down there.

That said, here are things that I ran into that I didn't like that you should be aware of:

I really didn't like the sales strategy of their sales people. High pressure combined with little specifics created a lot of headaches during the project.

First off, people who can afford to pay a premium for their basement being done aren't fools. Even so, they used the same tactic on us as they would on some gullible yokel. No offense, but the reason we can afford this stuff is because we have some financial savvy. So don't march into our houses with magazines showing that the "Average" basement costs over $50 per square foot to finish. Because that's nonsense and does more to harm your sale than anything else. Sure, if you're going to have bathrooms and kitchens and tiled areas and wet bars and such it will cost more, but the Owens Corning System doesn't take care of any of that. They just do the "walls", drop down ceiling, electrical, and a few other things. They're not going to build you a bar or tile your floor for you (unless you make a special deal with them). Just for reference, a typical basement done with dry wall with nothing too fancy done shouldn't cost much more than $20 per square foot. Our last dry wall basement cost around $17 per square foot.

The price you should try to get with the Owens Corning Basement System is somewhere between $25 and $35 per square foot. They may balk at $25 but $35 they should certainly take. I paid about $28 per square foot. $30 per square foot would be good. Anything much higher and you're paying too much. Which is why they do the high pressure tactic to get you to sign right there.  To the sales guy's horror, I made him sit there while I had my laptop doing net searches on how much other people have paid. By the way, be aware that most states do have a law that allow you to back out of contracts within 72 hours. So if they did manage to get you to commit for $55 per square foot or something you aren't up the creek.

The second thing I didn't care for was the amount of vagueness to the agreement. Because of the high pressure sales tactics, the sales guy didn't write down a lot of our specific needs on his "agreement" (which was literally just a 1 page form he hand wrote notes on which I was pretty unhappy about). For instance, we said we wanted padded carpet so he suggested Home Depot. Which we did. But they didn't cut the doors so that they would fit on padded carpet so when we put in the carpeting, we had to take off the doors. It took us 3 weeks to get them to make good on this. They argued it wasn't their responsibility to fix the doors. Nonsense. We told them up front that we were going to get padded carpet. For us to fix would have meant bringing in another contractor. They agreed to fix it only after I made it clear that I would ensure that my experiences with the Owens Corning Basement System would show up high on google. It took the guy 30 minutes to fix it once he dropped by. So they made good but it did mar an otherwise fairly seamless experience.

So make sure that you are clear (and document) exactly what they do and what they expect you to do. The Owens Corning contractors don't tend to do as much as regular full service basement contractors. They weren't planning on putting in our phone and cable lines for example but luckily that was written into that agreement.

Thirdly, the only negative I've run into since putting it in is that it is, contrary to what they said, not that easy to hang things up on the walls. Since they're not drywall, you can't just put in a nail and put stuff up. You have to use special clipper thingies. These work nice on light things. But they didn't give us any samples or directions or order forms to get things for putting up heavier items (like a big white board for example). This has been a source of some ire since it's turning out not easy to find these "mending plates" in low quantities. Office Max and Staples don't seem to have them. None of the hardware stores we've looked at have them. I've looked on the net and I can buy them in quantity (like 1000 at a time) but I only need like 5. My suggestion is to insist that they provide you with 100 of the t-pins (small stuff) and 100 mending plates (big stuff) as part of the agreement.

Fourthly, this gets back to the "customers are suckers" sales pitch. The sales guy and his materials really went hard on the mold scare tactic. Mold is definitely something not to blow off. But it should not be your motivating factor to spend a third again as much on a basement. Would you pay $15000 more on your house for a "lightning strike resistant" design? The kinds of houses most people who would put this stuff in are usually newer and on the premium side. The basements, in short, don't get wet very easily. That isn't to say they shouldn't mention mold, but it should be more of a "bonus" feature rather than as the principle selling point.

Now that it's all done, I'm pretty happy with it. I like knowing that I won't have to mess around with painting or touching up the basement in a few years. I do wish it was easier to modify with other things. For instance, I can't just build out a bar from it. But that is no biggie really. The basement does what it was supposed to do. And even better, since I want to have a theatre down there eventually, it's got incredible acoustics. If you have the money and are more interested in having your basement be finished quickly and cleanly rather than having some incredible basement palace created, this is something you should seriously consider.

Completion date: September 2003.

Update: September 2005: I have created a second article for people who want to share their experiences (good and bad) with the Owens Corning Basement System. GO HERE to discuss.

update: 10/2003 - still pretty happy with the basement. thanks for all your emails. if you have any questions, ask them in the comments area or you can email me at bwardell@stardock.com.

update: 5/1/2005 - still happy with how it's turned out. I get a  lot of email on this stuff from people, I don't usually get to answer it. But I will say that we are happy with it still. It absorbs sound. But I maintain that the main reason to get it is that you want to save time. If you don't mind having people working on your basement for 6 to 10 weeks and the drywall dust and other dirt that is inevitable with dry-wall then get the dry-wall.  But for me, having it all over in a week or so was the key and no mess afterwards.


Comments (Page 26)
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on Dec 14, 2004
I would bet that they WILL be around, am looking to buy their stock. Just remember when you are buying
equity you are also buying liabilities.
on Dec 14, 2004
I had a question about the owens corning basement system. Are the walls paintable or are you stuck with white? I cant seem to find anything about that so my guess is that you can not paint the walls.
on Dec 14, 2004
KEN:

The OC office will not budge on their price.

They say the prices talked about on the internet are not reliable, that all basements vary, that my basement included a closet, new stairs, finishing under the stairs, that the prices vary across the nation and that Boston has a high labor rate, etc. I was told there was no way possible to quote every basement by square foot because each basement is unique. He also mentioned that the original salesman did not include studs along 1/2 the area to be completed! They also stated how busy they are and that they cannot keep up with the work. I was told that the quote is the best they can do and while they are making some money on my job, it is less than typical because they gave me break due to the fact that I had some issues with the original sales person.

The franchise is OC Basement Finishing of Boston.

Any help here? I am ready to roll on this, but I cannnot believe I have the best price out of them.

Thanks
on Dec 16, 2004
The problem lies in the fact is that there never seems to be a detailed list of materials, which is how they
arrive at their quote. What was the original list price and what was the last price?
on Dec 16, 2004
to Boston Area 2
Basement almost finished. Also live in Ma. Cost approx. 17000. Absolutely gorgeous results!
Expect it wil add at least 25000 to sale price. Go for it.
on Dec 16, 2004
You do have the best price, take it. It includes a little more work than normal and everyone is going great. So they are telling you the truth, they ccan't keep up. One of the reasons is that we do not use sub-contractors, they are Owens Corning Certified. We can't just hire anyone of the street. Might be more than you were willing to spend, but go the extra mile, you will not be sorry. Good Luck
on Dec 16, 2004
Pictures please. Where can I see some pictures on the web like the ones for www.basementlivingsystems.com/photos.htm

Terri, how does it look compared to the pictures of the Chamion product?
on Dec 16, 2004
When you have a rep out to your home you will see pictures. Please make sure to compare warrantys, product and labor!!
on Dec 16, 2004
Has anyone had problems with installation? We are getting ours finished now and it just looks like the system doesn't fit well together in the corners and we are having a heck of the time getting them to fix it. I am not pleased with the results. I haven't seen anyone else mention this type of problem. Is it just our installer? Thanks.
on Dec 16, 2004
Just to be clear about my previous question...the problems we are having are with the moulding (top and bottom) coming together well with the pieces that are installed between the panels and in the corners. Our installers think they are "done".
on Dec 16, 2004
Hey Jen,

At least you won't get any mold

Umu U
on Dec 16, 2004
to Terri:

Which office in MA for OC did you contract to?
What size is your finished area? Did you have any closets? How many doors? The cost is much lower than what they told me mine would cost.

Please post whether you had installation issues at corners as posted by Jen or any other issues.

Thanks
on Dec 17, 2004
Hi Jen,

We've just about completed getting the system installed (waiting on some final fixed and building inspection.

I was very dissappointed with the initial quality of the workmanship (SE Detroit area) for what the installer thought was a finished job. The gaps between panels and trim, ceiling tiles and trim, trim and trim were very inconsistent, even on interior walls the installer built. I can understand some of the exterial walls not being straight and causing problems (this wouldn't be an issue if they framed exterior walls). I raised the issue up the chain of the franchise, and they have addressed most of the glaring problems. Because the system is removable, there are going to be some gaps, but the installer tried to hide that by using caulking. That just defeated the purpose of it being a removable system!.

One thing I have learnt is that OC dictate installation guidelines to the franchises and they follow those. So when the OC inspector comes out in a couple of weeks, I'm going to have a very interesting discussion with him, epsecially on the ceiling tile installation. Every false ceiling I've seen uses a reveal cut on the edges to give a nice finish and consistent look. OC mandated that the ceiling tile must sit on top of the wall trim which means it shows the slightest variation or gap. Hence if the trim isn't straight, it looks ugly. The only reason I can see OC choosing this method is that it's faster (hence cheaper) and requires less skill by the installer. There are meant to be certain tolerances for items or the finish to be "In spec", but it appears only the franchsie and OC instpectors know what they are. We have some minor flaws in a few panels and some small dents, and it will be interested to see if these fall in spec or not since the franchise doesn't think they're out of spec.

In Michigan, everything seems to be contracted out from the franchises, and the majority of the contractors we've had working on our basement have screwed something up and had to come back again and do it. The electrical contractor had to redo the electrical work 3 times to meet rought electrical code and then redo the final electrical twice to meet thatt code. This can't be coste effective for either the contractor or the franchise.

There are many things OC could do to improve the system. The 1 5/8" studs cause many problems in meeting build and electrical codes. They're flimsy so that lots of work has to be done to brace any outlets or doors. Considereing that they use 2.5" studs on walls that have panels on both sides, I don't see a reason why these are not used everywhere to improve the siffness of the walls, doors, and outlets (other than its cheaper for OC). This would also provide a big improvement in the fit of their trim components so that things actually are straight. I can't believe they haven't worked out a bonded or snap interlock system for the trim to help keep them aligned and straight where they meet.

The wall systems also currently does not lend itself to the homeowner finishing the areas not completed with the OC system. For example, I have a workshop area that I now have to look at how I can frame out a door that sticks a couple of inches out from the wall (instead of being flush).

The trim around doors and windows is another weak area since again it's a snap in track system. The corneres are typically not flush or flat with each other and there's no way other then the installers magical glue gun for trying to hold them together.

Overall, the walls look nice, it's just when you look more closely, you see that using the plastic trim, restricts the fit. It's never going to look as good as something you can nail and screw together. The quality of the work and the system really does lend itself to the homeowner doing it, since you can get the same finsh as the "certified" installers.

I think that the fiberglass issue of the systems is not throught of by the installers. Our guy never had a mask (only latex gloves for holding the panels). After he finished, we had to brush the panels and vacuum the floor to get rid of the fiberglass dust which is a nasty substance. If there are any franchises reading this, think about ensuring your installers have a shop vac or something to finish up with.

Some may think I'm being over critical of the system, but it's no different to how I reviewed the house we had built and the workmanship associated with that. And for around $36 a sq ft, I had high expectations on the materials and workmanship.

In summary, I'd say that the final look and quality is OK, but not outstanding. I'm hard pressed to see the ROI in it yet, and once I see the final warranty terms and conditions will determine my final view, since now based on what the OC installation manager said, it really only covers the mold growth aspect.

on Dec 17, 2004
David, thank you very much for the reply. We have also had many failed inspections and other issues that would have been completely prevented if someone was just paying attention. Our 'finished' basement is missing moulding in several places, missing ceiling tile, has a scratched sink (the 2nd one that has been installed) that is leaking, etc. We have more problems in our basement than we did with our entire house that we had built, if you can believe it. About the corners/trim, I understand that there will be some gaps, but we expected it to at least resemble we saw in their showroom....not gorgeous, but of high utility and professional looking. 95% of the corners in our basement do not meet that description. Even their bathroom installer was complaining about the uneveness of the walls that they put in! Yikes. We are just starting the escalation process now and hope to make some headway that way. I know every construction job has its issues; I just find it unacceptable that I have this many that are so obvious to anyone who walks in the room. On the postive side, our installers were very clean and also very nice (they just don't seem to do very good finishing work....)
on Dec 17, 2004
Jen, It is very surprising thy don't finish the work well, since the contractors don't get paid until you sign off on the review form. We have a bathroom to be done yet also (by someone else) and one of the walls framed by the OC installer has to be fixed still because they can't seem to understand the importance of a straight wall. They've already tried to fix it several times. But they don't get their check until it's done. So far it's been 4 weeks instead of the "Only 2 weeks" and it's either due to screw ups or lack of materials in their warehouse.

Based on my experience, I have a low opinion of the crews they use for this work and their ability to do high quality work unless you're holding them continuously to the fire (primarily by not signing off or paying). In our instance the installer was suggesting that signing off on the work was just verifying that everything had been done and that the quality issues were to be done later with the OC inspector. This is not the case. The sign off form is saying the quality is accptable and doesn't require further work.

I think the main objective for the installers and contractors are to get the job done as quickly as possible to get paid and do the least effort approach by default. In this respect it's similar to the sales approach. If you're not prepared up front with clear requirements and questions, things can get by (like addtional cost items) and turn up unexpectedly later. With the installation, unless you pay attention to the work, you could be left with an average finish. You then have to rely on the audit process done by the OC inspector.

I'll be interested to see how much he really scrutinizes the work. My guess at this juncture is, that unless you point things out you're not happy with, he'll probably not probe in too much detail.

Does anyone else have feedback on the OC Inspector visit and if he was beneficial in finding work that was below acceptable standards?
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