Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
My review and experience with it
Published on May 1, 2005 By Draginol In Home Improvement

If you decide you want to finish your basement there are lots of options to consider.  Do you do it yourself? Do you contract it out? Maybe do a little in between? For me and my wife, we just aren't handy enough to try to finish a basement on our own.  So we decided we'd contract the whole thing out.

Once you decide you're going to contract it out, then it's a matter of deciding what direction to take with it. Do you go with drywall? The problem with drywall is that it takes months to put in (how long do you want contractors going in and out of your house?).  It makes a lot of mess (expects months if not years of drywall dust to be floating around your house), it's susceptible to damage from a wide range of sources (water, normal wear and tear due to it being in a basement).  So we wanted our basement finished but drywall had a lot of negatives to it.

That's when we heard about the Owens Corning Basement System.  After intense negotiations, we had it done.  And below you can read about our experiences during the sales process, installation, and after effects.  I hope you find it useful.

The Owens Corning Basement System has been in place now for our basement for about a month now so I've had time to get used to it.

The project went pretty smoothly except for a few hiccups that I'll talk about here. So what's the verdict? Here are the things I really liked about it:

  1. It's fast. In 2 weeks it's all done.
  2. It's clean. No dry wall dust all over.
  3. It's durable. It's virtually impossible to damage. Basements, unlike the rest of the house, are more prone to dings since that's where most people store things too.
  4. It's virtually sound proof. This was an unexpected benefit. But the kids can go and play down there without having to hear music, TV, yelling throughout the house.
  5. It looks pretty nice still (but not as nice as dry wall in my opinion).
  6. It is nice to know that in 20 years it'll look the same as today. Dry wall in basements tend to not look so good. At best you'll have to repaint larger areas. With this, you don't have to.

The big thing for us though was the speed of it. My first basement was done with dry wall and I have no regrets about that. It was nicely done. But it took months to do and over a year for the house to stop having more dust in it than before. The dry wall dust simply gets everywhere.

If you're as unhandy as me, then you likely want contractors to do pretty much all the building. It can be uncomfortable having strangers in your house for months. In contrast, the Owens Corning Basement System was installed in our roughly 1100 to 1200 square foot area in about 2 weeks (closer to 10 days).

In short, I was willing to pay a premium to not have to deal with a summer of construction. The fact that it looks nice and can't be damaged easily was a real bonus. My 3 year old already put that to the test by taking a permanent marker to one of the walls. In a few minutes we were able to wipe it off with some bleach and you can't even tell where it was. Contrast that to having to repaint that area with a dry wall basement. Not to mention all the nicks and gouges that would be there due to moving stuff down there.

That said, here are things that I ran into that I didn't like that you should be aware of:

I really didn't like the sales strategy of their sales people. High pressure combined with little specifics created a lot of headaches during the project.

First off, people who can afford to pay a premium for their basement being done aren't fools. Even so, they used the same tactic on us as they would on some gullible yokel. No offense, but the reason we can afford this stuff is because we have some financial savvy. So don't march into our houses with magazines showing that the "Average" basement costs over $50 per square foot to finish. Because that's nonsense and does more to harm your sale than anything else. Sure, if you're going to have bathrooms and kitchens and tiled areas and wet bars and such it will cost more, but the Owens Corning System doesn't take care of any of that. They just do the "walls", drop down ceiling, electrical, and a few other things. They're not going to build you a bar or tile your floor for you (unless you make a special deal with them). Just for reference, a typical basement done with dry wall with nothing too fancy done shouldn't cost much more than $20 per square foot. Our last dry wall basement cost around $17 per square foot.

The price you should try to get with the Owens Corning Basement System is somewhere between $25 and $35 per square foot. They may balk at $25 but $35 they should certainly take. I paid about $28 per square foot. $30 per square foot would be good. Anything much higher and you're paying too much. Which is why they do the high pressure tactic to get you to sign right there.  To the sales guy's horror, I made him sit there while I had my laptop doing net searches on how much other people have paid. By the way, be aware that most states do have a law that allow you to back out of contracts within 72 hours. So if they did manage to get you to commit for $55 per square foot or something you aren't up the creek.

The second thing I didn't care for was the amount of vagueness to the agreement. Because of the high pressure sales tactics, the sales guy didn't write down a lot of our specific needs on his "agreement" (which was literally just a 1 page form he hand wrote notes on which I was pretty unhappy about). For instance, we said we wanted padded carpet so he suggested Home Depot. Which we did. But they didn't cut the doors so that they would fit on padded carpet so when we put in the carpeting, we had to take off the doors. It took us 3 weeks to get them to make good on this. They argued it wasn't their responsibility to fix the doors. Nonsense. We told them up front that we were going to get padded carpet. For us to fix would have meant bringing in another contractor. They agreed to fix it only after I made it clear that I would ensure that my experiences with the Owens Corning Basement System would show up high on google. It took the guy 30 minutes to fix it once he dropped by. So they made good but it did mar an otherwise fairly seamless experience.

So make sure that you are clear (and document) exactly what they do and what they expect you to do. The Owens Corning contractors don't tend to do as much as regular full service basement contractors. They weren't planning on putting in our phone and cable lines for example but luckily that was written into that agreement.

Thirdly, the only negative I've run into since putting it in is that it is, contrary to what they said, not that easy to hang things up on the walls. Since they're not drywall, you can't just put in a nail and put stuff up. You have to use special clipper thingies. These work nice on light things. But they didn't give us any samples or directions or order forms to get things for putting up heavier items (like a big white board for example). This has been a source of some ire since it's turning out not easy to find these "mending plates" in low quantities. Office Max and Staples don't seem to have them. None of the hardware stores we've looked at have them. I've looked on the net and I can buy them in quantity (like 1000 at a time) but I only need like 5. My suggestion is to insist that they provide you with 100 of the t-pins (small stuff) and 100 mending plates (big stuff) as part of the agreement.

Fourthly, this gets back to the "customers are suckers" sales pitch. The sales guy and his materials really went hard on the mold scare tactic. Mold is definitely something not to blow off. But it should not be your motivating factor to spend a third again as much on a basement. Would you pay $15000 more on your house for a "lightning strike resistant" design? The kinds of houses most people who would put this stuff in are usually newer and on the premium side. The basements, in short, don't get wet very easily. That isn't to say they shouldn't mention mold, but it should be more of a "bonus" feature rather than as the principle selling point.

Now that it's all done, I'm pretty happy with it. I like knowing that I won't have to mess around with painting or touching up the basement in a few years. I do wish it was easier to modify with other things. For instance, I can't just build out a bar from it. But that is no biggie really. The basement does what it was supposed to do. And even better, since I want to have a theatre down there eventually, it's got incredible acoustics. If you have the money and are more interested in having your basement be finished quickly and cleanly rather than having some incredible basement palace created, this is something you should seriously consider.

Completion date: September 2003.

Update: September 2005: I have created a second article for people who want to share their experiences (good and bad) with the Owens Corning Basement System. GO HERE to discuss.

update: 10/2003 - still pretty happy with the basement. thanks for all your emails. if you have any questions, ask them in the comments area or you can email me at bwardell@stardock.com.

update: 5/1/2005 - still happy with how it's turned out. I get a  lot of email on this stuff from people, I don't usually get to answer it. But I will say that we are happy with it still. It absorbs sound. But I maintain that the main reason to get it is that you want to save time. If you don't mind having people working on your basement for 6 to 10 weeks and the drywall dust and other dirt that is inevitable with dry-wall then get the dry-wall.  But for me, having it all over in a week or so was the key and no mess afterwards.


Comments (Page 38)
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on Apr 06, 2005
OWENS CORNING

Asbestos claims

Tuesday, April 5, 2005

A federal judge in Philadelphia has ruled that bankrupt fiberglass maker Owens Corning is exposed to $7 billion in potential claims from people sickened by asbestos.
The decision issued Friday by U.S. District Judge John Fullham could force Owens Corning to increase a $3.6 billion reserve for asbestos claims.

Banks and bondholders owed money by Owens Corning had asked the court to set the company's liability to people injured by asbestos between $2.2 billion and $2.6 billion. Lawyers representing victims wanted at least $11 billion.



on Apr 07, 2005
I looked up Owen's stock and searched online for the federal judge running but could not find a thing about this. Is this true??
on Apr 07, 2005
to quote STANLEY

a 5 billion dollar a year company will not let their name be degraded by any association with such a law suit. Even if it is true a 5 billion dollar a year company is obviously innocent of any and all charges. Did I mention that OC is a 5 billion dollar a year company.
on Apr 07, 2005
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT

Nos. 94-1745 and 94-1746

SARAH A. KIRK, Administratrix of the Estates of KIRK, Alfred T., Deceased and KIRK, Sarah A. in her own right

v.

RAYMARK INDUSTRIES, INC.; EAGLE-PICHER INDUSTRIES, INC.; KEENE CORPORATION; GARLOCK INC; OWENS-CORNING FIBERGLAS CORPORATION; CELOTEX CORP.; GAF CORPORATION; OWENS-ILLINOIS GLASS COMPANY

Owens-Corning Fiberglas Corporation, Appellant

Appeal from the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania (D.C. No. 88-cv-03736)

Argued February 14, 1995 BEFORE: STAPLETON, GREENBERG and COWEN, Circuit Judges

(Filed April 14, l995 )

Joseph M. Greitzer Jerry Kristal (argued) Greitzer & Locks 1500 Walnut Street 20th Floor Philadelphia, PA 19102

Counsel for Appellee Sarah A. Kirk, Administratrix of the Estates of KIRK, Alfred T., Deceased and KIRK, Sarah A. in her own right

Robert N. Spinelli W. Matthew Reber (argued) Kelley, Jasons, McGuire & Spinelli 1617 JFK Blvd. Suite 1400 Philadelphia, PA 19103

Counsel for Appellant Owens-Corning Fiberglas Corporation


Jeff you didn't look to hard !!!! this took me about 2 seconds to find
on Apr 07, 2005
WILMINGTON, Delaware -- A federal judge has determined that the Toledo, Ohio-based Owens Corning is likely to owe $7 billion for asbestos damages.

The ruling signed yesterday by U.S. District Judge John Fullam of Philadelphia is a key action in the company’s long-running bankruptcy case.


Financial creditors of the maker of building materials argued that the company’s asbestos liabilities should be between two billion and three billion dollars.


Lawyers for asbestos claimants asked for an estimate of $11 billion from the judge.


Owens Corning is one of the largest of many companies to seek refuge in Chapter Eleven from an onslaught of claims for damages from asbestos products that it has long since ceased making.


The estimation proceedings before Fullam were hotly contested. The liability amount assigned by the judge sets a baseline for Chapter Eleven reorganization plan negotiations.

on Apr 07, 2005
Story
Owens Corning's asbestos liability set at US$7 billion by U.S. judge


Canadian Press


Monday, April 04, 2005


TOLEDO, Ohio (AP) - A federal judge in Philadelphia has ruled that bankrupt fibreglass maker Owens Corning is exposed to $7 billion US in potential claims from people sickened by asbestos.

The decision issued by U.S. District Judge John Fullham could force Owens Corning to increase a $3.6-billion reserve for asbestos claims. The Toledo-based company, which filed for bankruptcy protection in October 2000, will be absolved of claims once it comes out of bankruptcy.

The judge's valuation will determine how much is placed into an independent trust fund that will pay future claims

Banks and bondholders owed money by Owens Corning had asked the court to set the company's liability to people injured by asbestos between $2.2 billion and $2.6 billion.

Lawyers representing victims wanted at least $11 billion.

There has been wide disagreement over how many people exposed to asbestos suffered serious harm.

Owens Corning spokeswoman Kristin Kelley said the ruling will allow the company to move forward in its bankruptcy case.

The maker of building materials and fibreglass filed for bankruptcy protection because of rising costs from asbestos lawsuits. It stopped selling insulation that contained asbestos 25 years ago.

Asbestos used to be widely used for building materials, including insulation and piping used in steel mills, auto plants and ships. When inhaled, it can lead to a fatal respiratory disease.



on Apr 07, 2005
Court Sets Owens Corning Asbestos Damage At $7 Billion
AP -

04/01/05 - A federal judge has determined that Owens Corning, the maker of building materials, is likely to owe $7 billion for asbestos damages.

The ruling signed Thursday by U.S. District Judge John Fullam of Philadelphia, is a key action in Toledo, Ohio-based Owens Corning's long-running bankruptcy case.

Financial creditors of the company argued that the company's asbestos liabilities should be pegged at a number between $2 billion and $3 billion.

Lawyers for asbestos claimants asked for an estimate of $11 billion from the judge, who took extensive evidence on the issue.

Owens Corning is one of the largest of many companies to seek refuge in Chapter 11 from an onslaught of claims for damages from asbestos products that it has long since ceased making.

The asbestos estimation proceedings before Fullam were hotly contested, as the liability amount assigned by the judge sets a baseline for Chapter 11 reorganization plan negotiations.

In broad outline, Owens Corning expects to appease both financial and personal injury creditors with shares in its still successful business operations.

The higher the amount estimated for asbestos liability, the more equity Owens Corning will set aside for people with claims for disease and death caused by asbestos.

on Apr 07, 2005
LETS NOT FORGET THIS IS A 5 BILLION DOLLAR PER YEAR COMPANY

Dividend Check Belongs To You,Right? Maybe not.
Frobes Magazine 11.11.02 issue ^ | Carrie Coolidge


Posted on 11/04/2002 8:22:47 AM PST by yankeedame


The Great Dividend Heist

by Carrie Coolidge, 11.11.02

Owens Corning, the Chapter 11-mired maker of insulation hawked by the Pink Panther, wants to force shareholders to give back years of payouts. Stock investors will get doubly hosed if this idea spreads.

That dividend check belongs to you, right? Maybe not. Owens Corning, in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, is seeking to recoup as much as $42 million it paid out to big shareholders in recent years. If it wins, investors in other troubled companies could lose--yet again.

...Owens Corning is attempting a heist that would confound Inspector Clouseau. Owens Corning (nyse: OWC - news - people ), which went Chapter 11 in 2000 amid towering asbestos claims, filed a lawsuit on Oct. 2 against major shareholders, aiming to force them to relinquish dividends paid from 1996 to 2000. The last quarterly dividend it sent out before the Chapter 11 filing paid 7.5 cents a share for a nice 3.7% annual yield.

Should Owens Corning prevail in its suit...other Chapter 11-enmeshed outfits surely would be tempted to try their own grab-backs...

...companies, which paid dividends before their Chapter 11 filings, could follow Owens Corning's lead if it wins in court. None will say what it will do at this point.

...Owens Corning's legal theory borders on a kind of stupidity defense: Duh, we didn't even know we were insolvent when we paid the dividends, so now we want 'em back. It is based on a recent ruling in another asbestos-related Chapter 11 filing: that of W.R. Grace & Co.

...( WRG dividends) should be nullified because in July the court ruled Grace was technically insolvent years before its 2001 filing...

Armed with the Grace ruling, Owens Corning argues that it, too, was insolvent before its bankruptcy filing--for four years, in fact. Hence the 1996-2000 dividends were as invalid as (WRG) and should be refunded. That shareholders received the payouts in all innocence makes no difference, the firm says.

Other companies in trouble are taking note. At what's left of Polaroid, President Kevin Pond says he's not wild about an Owens Corning-style move but would not stand in the way if bankruptcy attorneys think it's a good thing to do... the company paid $153 million in just the last four quarters of dividends before its October 2001 bankruptcy filing.

In the Owens Corning case, at least the company isn't going after small shareholders. Owens Corning is pursuing only big holders who received more than $100,000 in dividends...

An Owens Corning spokesman says the company has no choice but to try to recover the payouts; once a company goes into Chapter 11, it is obligated to serve creditors, not shareholders. And at least the pockets it is trying to pick are deep ones. But if Owens Corning can pull off this ploy, what will stop other bankruptcy filers from coming after average investors?

Nothing in the Grace ruling is limited to just asbestos cases, bankruptcy lawyers say. "The boy has bit the dog here," says James D. McGinley, a bankruptcy attorney at Edwards & Angell in Boston. Even companies guilty of accounting fraud, he says, could end up trying to claw back their dividends. Yes, even Enron. In its last four quarters of dividends it paid out $372 million. An Enron spokesman, told of the Owens Corning move, says the company will alert its lawyers.


on Apr 07, 2005
We should stop this debate and trust that any company that does 5 billion a year in business would not try to rip you off on a basement system. To quote a popular song
"might is right , and right is wrong"
on Apr 09, 2005
No grudge, huh. The basement refinishing is a seperate division. But, knock yourself out.and...find a hobby.
on Apr 13, 2005
Stanley,

I love people like you. So full of themselves that they believe they have the wisdom and insight to dispense advice. Get a hobby you say, as if I live my life just to slam OC. If you don't suffer from A.D.D. I think a review of the previous posts will bear out that almost all of your comments to me were based on Opinion, your opinion. ALL OF MY POSTS ARE FACT, and direct rebuttal's to your rants. I didn't try to side step a flippin stupid opinion you chose to post. I addressed them directly and factually.

SO..... maybe you should get an education or maybe a personality or maybe a conscience.

I totally expect another of your "enlightening" and "helpful" replies.

You may be wondering, why does this guy keep posting. It's because I know that I am driving you crazy, and thats worth the 5 minutes a week that I devote to it, believe me, its well worth it.

So Stanley,,,,,


on Apr 14, 2005
Thanks for the love!! You sound like the liberals out there trying to show us why there is global warming, using only part of the facts or taking comments and text out of context. To put OC in the company of a company like Enron or any of the other companies that have used shady accounting practices is of course exactly what you would do..it fits your story. forget if it has been proven or if there have been any arrests or whatever...a little blurb and bingo..this will help my vendetta against OC..Well you are right about one thing they are my opinions...but most of the posts on this sites are rants and are unbelievable..your last comment tells us what type of person you are and that you do in fact need another outlet..I am glad to have helped in your therapy..but will do so no longer..so good luck in your fight against OC..buy the way their basement division is having a record year..so maybe you are in the minority..but keep up the good fight..keep fighting those windmills DON..
on Apr 14, 2005
This will officially be my last post on this site. It has been 4 weeks since my OC basement has been completed. Overall I give it a 9.5 out of a possible 10. The additional living space: workout area, play area, and home theater area are priceless. I know there is heavy debate about the pricing of the system. It's not cheap and it's not for everyone. I have had about 20 friends and neighbors over and all of them stated to me that they really liked it. But the only part that really matters is that my wife, 1 year old son, 2 dogs, and myself love it. As I have stated in previous posts if you would like to ask me any questions about the system feel free to email me. Roistchiro@aol.com I've spent the better half of the past 3 months checking this site for info. I've read every single post. Thank you to everyone for sharing your opinions.
on Apr 21, 2005
Just got my Basement Finished with the Owens Corning System and WOW. It came out better then I expected the company I used was Alure and they are great. If any of you could get them I dont think you'd be dissapointed, everyone I delt with was professional and above board. Yeah, it was more than I planned on spending but compared to the other contractors I've had do work for me these guys were great. Looking forward to having a great big party on Memorial day at my house.
on Apr 22, 2005
South Jersey. We had the OC guy give us an estimate for 450 sq.ft job (about 3/4 of the basement). $32000. (@$75 sq.ft - no flooring-just walls and ceiling). We were interested but not at that price. We told the guy we wanted to put a bedroom in. He suggested we don't submit it for permits as a bedroom, because it would require an egress window. I don't do things that way. Anyway, we told the guy we liked the system and after researching this site, were considering negotiating to see if we could get a better price. The salesman did not follow up, so we got estimates for a drywall basement (550 sq.ft - entire basement) with a full bathroom, egress window, flooring, etc. Estmates ranged from $23k to $37k. We contracted with a company we felt comfortable with at $25.2k. The OC system has its advantages, but we are getting much more for the money.
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