Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Danger..boring..boring..
Published on March 20, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

So how exactly does/should production work? Here's how it will work in v1.1 which will seem pretty much the same to people who aren't really into the numbers but will be a major improvement to people who follow stats.

On your planets you build factories and research labs.  These factories and labs produce industrial units and technology units.

Your spend rate determines what % of your factories and research are to be funded. In addition, the 3 sliders funnel that funding in to military, research, and social production.

What affects production?

You also have a number of bonuses that come into play:

1) Special tiles will add a bonus to the given factory or lab's production level.

2) Starbases can assist factories and labs by cranking up their production by a %.

3) Planetary bonuses (from events) can increase research or manufacturing.

4) Your civilization ability in research, social production, and military production can have an impact as well.

Half of your bonuses (2, 3, 4) you are not charged for. You simply get them for free. Yay.

The code: (for those interested)

CalcCommerce().  This function looks at your factories and multiplies that by any special buildings (like a manufacturing capital). It then takes into account things like whether there's a United Planets issue involved (like the galactic prison).

CalcTechnologyProduction().  This function looks at the total value of the labs and other research providing buildings, multiplies that by any buildings that increase research production by a % (like a technology capital) and puts it together.

CalcResearchProductionBonus(). This function looks at CalcTechnologyProduction() and then returns how much bonus research you get from your ability, whether the planet has rings (10% bonus),  whether there's some other event in action, etc.

CalcProductionBonus(). Same as ResearchProductionBonus except it looks at industry related bonuses.

Sins of the past

Galactic Civilizations II's system was a carry over from the original game (2003) in which the various abilities, values, etc. were morphed based on play testing.  And in the case of things like morale which generates your approval rating, your morale ability is literally added to your approval rating at a rate of Morale Ability to the .90 power. Why? Because from play testing that was the most fun in how the various buildings and abilities worked.

But sticking with production and research, which is the real nuts and bolts, the idea here is to streamline this so that the mechanics are straight forward and easy to understand.  I also want to add tool tips that spell out this stuff if there's time.  If you have the non-English version of Galactic Civilizations II you may want to switch to the English version for 1.1 until the new text is translated.

Real world examples

So for spread sheet gurus, what can we expect in the terms of numbers? In the game I'm in I have two planets: Haven and Vizzard II.

My spend rate is 100%. And all my money is going into research. Haven is my capital and has 3 labs. The planet has a 12% research bonus due to an event. I have a bunch of starbases around it that double my factories and lab production. What should it look like?

I'm only charged for half the bonus production (so half the starbases, half the planet, and half the ability). So even though I'm getting 134 research per week from Haven, I'm only being charged for 94 of it. Yay. The other 40 of it is "free".  Where did that number come from? Well, the base production on Haven is 54 (24 + 30).  My total research is 134. 134 - 54 is 80.  So 40 of that extra research is free and the other 40 I'm charged for.  The original 54 I'm charged for so 54 + 40 = 94.

To the average player, this is a bunch of either "who cares" or "This is so complicated".  The system isn't really designed to be spread sheeted this way and in GalCiv 1, few people did.  But enough people had a huge outcry that they couldn't just spreadsheet this stuff that we ended up in a situation where we needed to be able to put this stuff together in a way that people could understand.

Eventually I get something like this:

If this all looks confusing and such, don't worry about it.  It should look confusing and complicated to most people.  But to people who really get into the numbers, this is what I think many of them were looking for. Very clean, straight forward economics, albeit with a lot of modifiers involved but at least it's knowable.

Where things get really a pain in the rear is when you deal with the new social wastage elimination.  Should unused social production get to get all those nice military bonuses? That is, if I've got say 50 social production going but I'm not building anything, should that 50ip's get all the bonus modifiers and become say 100 military production? 

After a weekend of playing it both ways, I decided on no.  That social production is transferred to your total military production on the planet but it doesn't get all the bonuses. There has to be something to benefit the player who runs their economy well, otherwise we might as well just get rid of the economic system entirely and just have it a be a mindless grind of cranking out ships.

The other tough question is whether your base social production should get bonuses and all that good stuff and then have that magnified amount be transferred over to your military.  Again, after playing it for awhile, it just seemed incredibly cheesy that a player could see their ships get cranked out really fast because they had picked a high social production value. It also seemed counter intuitive.

Here's how I tried to game the system with a 2% Military and a 98% social:

So what Haven ended up getting in terms of military production was 1 from its base and 2 (rounds up on bonuses) on the bonus for a total of 3 natural military production from the 2% ratio.  Then the 52 from the base output from social spending is transffered over for a total of 56 military spending.

You can imagine some of the cheesy scenarios I went through though.  In one case, I had something like 300 military production because I got the bonuses from the social production and then that production got re-bonused when it was transferred over.  And at that point the entire game mechanic starts to fall apart.

In extreme cases there will probably be some slight round off error. It's unavoidable when you're taking 50% of 3 (for instance).  But you get the idea.

Damned if you do and...

What's ironic about all this work on streamlining this is that you will have more people who like the fuzzy stuff and argue the game has no "soul".

We could have just used flavor text on the abilities and saved ourselves a lot of trouble and had one group be happier with things like:

Military Production Ability:

( ) Basic
( ) Industrious
( ) Magnificient

And let the user "imagine" what those values meant other than "something really cool".

Master of Orion 2 had a bit of both. "Fantastic Traders" instead of Trade Bonuses.  And "Charismatic" instead of a set Diplomatic Ability.

I think if there's a Galactic Civilizations III that you'll see the abilities evolve into something that has elements of this.  It's important to note that Galactic Civilizations preceded Master of Orion in terms of a public release (original OS/2 version) so when someone thinks that GalCiv is really a "MOO clone" they don't realize how far back the game goes.

My view on this kind of thing is that games have to evolve over time and good games integrate features from proven successes. Otherwise, the game designer's just being obtuse IMO.


Comments (Page 1)
5 Pages1 2 3  Last
on Mar 20, 2006
My view on this kind of thing is that games have to evolve over time and good games integrate features from proven successes. Otherwise, the game designer's just being obtuse IMO.


I think most of us here would agree with that. It's something that MOO3's designers unfortunately failed to grasp.

Thanks again for giving us all these peeks inside the game, Brad. I personally don't need to see how the math really works, but I appreciate you going to the effort so that the "number-crunchers" among us can.
on Mar 20, 2006
Very appropriate title, I have trouble fathoming how anybody has the time (other than the game designer of course) to worry about this stuff. I guess I'm in the other camp. But suffice it to say, I like this a whole lot better than MOO2, I think it must be the focus on single player. So thanks for that one.

That screen shot of the MOO2 custom race screen takes me back though.

on Mar 20, 2006
This is real good stuff Brad!
Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for those of us that are bean counters/efficiency nuts.
on Mar 20, 2006
Ahhhhhhhh! So thats how the economy works!

Question: Why did you guys decide to do the economy that way and not be able to run everything at 100% capacity if you could afford it?
on Mar 20, 2006
Great info. Thanks for explaining how unused social will be added to military. I think you made the right choice on not including the bonuses, although I consider social wastage elimination to be a HUGE upgrade to the game.

I spend easily 40% of my game time managing my colonies just to counter social waste. The phrase "...there has to be something to benefit the player who runs their economy well.." somewhat annoys me because I thought the idea was to avoid micro-management and countering social waste to 'run my economy well' means micro-management.

Regardless, 1.1 sounds like a dream come true.
on Mar 20, 2006
Thanks for the in-depth rundown on the numbers.

I'm not sure how simple adjectives and taking away definition from the abilities add "soul" to a game other than forcing you to imagine things a little more. But then again, you did start out as one of those people who liked fuzzy math right?

Anyway good job on the balance, I do see the possibilities of abuse when you choose to keep 3 sliders and the compromise seems like it'd work. However, micromanagement should only be rewarded so much, especially in trading for money. That process is very tedious and yet I do it anyway, hating myself for needing to weasel every credit that I can.
on Mar 20, 2006
Not to be fastidious, but so 'extra' social production that is carried over to military production will not have its inherent bonuses added in? You commented on it but you never really said that is going to happen. Yes or no?
on Mar 20, 2006
Excellent explanation, Brad! Many thanks. I finally understand exactly how the bonuses apply, and when. As a spreadsheet geek and Corporate Finance weenie, you've satisfied the little whiney voice in the back of my head...

You guys continue to blow me away. As for the "soul" issue, I know that you guys are receptive to constructive criticism and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That said, I'm reminded about that old saying, "You can please all of the people some of the time, and you can please some of the people all of the time..."
on Mar 20, 2006
Is there something wrong with editing my comments? I get a 'Server Error in '/' Application' when I tried. Fastidious -> Fascistic
on Mar 20, 2006

Not to be fastidious, but so 'extra' social production that is carried over to military production will not have its inherent bonuses added in? You commented on it but you never really said that is going to happen. Yes or no?

It will not have its bonuses added in.  You only get the base social production carried over.  But you're not charged for any social wastage anymore.

on Mar 21, 2006
Danger..boring..boring..

What? Nonsense! The best part of the game is seeing how it works (says the person with several hex-based wargames and a college textbook on AI ). I prefer the in-game math to be shown myself, although I will admit that it pushes me towards the realm of the obsessive-compulsive perfectionist.

Regardless, I'm pleased to see that production is a little more intuitive than before (social production not being wasted completely) while still remaining fair and making sense (no bonuses for non-social social production, etc). Now I wish I still had the save with my Ultimate Factory Planet - Two 300% manufacturing, two 200% (dubbed "Ironforge" - haven't found a better manufacturing planet since. Damn place nearly bankrupted me though ).
on Mar 21, 2006
I prefer the in-game math to be shown myself, although I will admit that it pushes me towards the realm of the obsessive-compulsive perfectionist.


Ugh. God no. The last thing I want to see in a game is a string of presumably meaningful, but to me meaningless, numbers. Labels like good, better, best are enough for me as long as each new level is actually better than the last. The attack and defence rates on ships are about as in-depth as I want to go numbers-wise.
on Mar 21, 2006

The proposed change sounds good and positive.

Would it possible be better to have it generate credits instead of military. If you recall moo2 let you build trade goods or housing to use up production on planets if you weren't building ships. Maybe a global setting that lets you pick where extra funding goes?

I have tangled mess of an economy. I can't get my head around it:

My problem with it is i had expanding worlds that needed social spending to build, and then i had my homeworld fully developed with a mix of industry and research. The planet had a 7x manufacturing square, so filled rest with research and put respective capitals on the planet. It is a very nice planet. Max research from buildings is 66. 136 MP. It also has an economy starbase outside it adding: +25 (percent i believe).

Spend 100%
Global sliders:
Military 100% Planet results: Mil 571 / 0 / 0 , Focus Social: 332 / 190 / 0 = 522, Focus Research: 456 / 0 / 139 = 595
Social 100% Planet results: Soc 0 / 466 / 0 , Focus Mil: 190 / 276 / 0 = 466, Focus Research: 0 / 371 / 139 = 510
Research 100% Planet results: Res 0 / 0 / 96 , Focus Mil: 16 / 0 / 72 = 88, Focus Soc: 0 / 16 / 72 = 88

Mil 33% Social 33% Res 34%
Base Result: 191 / 153 / 32 = 376
Focus results: Mil 258 / 90 / 24 = 372, Focus Social: 101 / 220 / 24 = 345, Focus Research: 150 / 122 / 123 = 395

So what the heck is optimal? I have been putting zero in social becuase almost any amount in it leads to huge waste from this planet and minor waste on my one other developed planet. I use 100% spend rate and then i have been using a mix of military and research to control spending (as you can see from the results above more research actually results in less overall spending). Then i go to each planet and set social focus so it can slowly get buildings done. What is counter intuitive is i can't max research independant of my spending on production and in order to max research i need to fully fund military and then focus on research. Why??

This planet is feeling like a curse these days. Since properly funding it can cost well over 500BC and the rest of my planets net maybe 500BC on their own. The change will take that waste and give me mil production, but it will still be a juggling match to fund the other planets as this one can spend so much i would guess I would need high research to keep the BC's low and high social to let the other planets develop. Set some military so they can produce some ships and let the social rollover on the homeworld build the bigger ships.
on Mar 21, 2006


Kinda about this, will the "prices" for military and social bonuses be altered? To me, a development freak, I'm gonna be really tempted to drop military production to 0 It would be even worse if the "bonus" carried over (duh you could put all ur points in social).

Also, just curious, but how does mixing alter efficiency? Like,do you get "more" total production if you split them versus if you focus(focus like tax rate AND in the planet-screen focus)? It'd make sense but doesn't seem to work with the system laid out.

Thanks a lot for taking time out to enlighten us and stuff
on Mar 21, 2006
The other tough question is whether your base social production should get bonuses and all that good stuff and then have that magnified amount be transferred over to your military. Again, after playing it for awhile, it just seemed incredibly cheesy that a player could see their ships get cranked out really fast because they had picked a high social production value. It also seemed counter intuitive.

True: social production bonus should help social production not military production . And production that wasn't planned to be military shouldn't get military production bonus .I think it is very easy to grasp and to defend
5 Pages1 2 3  Last