Do I need your views shoved down my throat?

Respecting dissent is a two-way street

Published on May 31, 2006 By Draginol In War on Terror

Why is it that the group that claims tolerance and open-mindedness as its mantra so intolerant and close minded in practice? What I speak of is the political left's tendency to interject their political beliefs into every venue that they can while at the same time, actively working to prevent those who disagree with them from having the ability to express their beliefs.

If I watch the MTV Music Awards, I can expect to have some left-winger denounce the war in Iraq. If I was the Oscars, I can expect to be treated to more anti-US policy rhetoric along with some environmentalist ranting from someone who gets around by personal jet. If I watch Comedy Central or go to a concert or buy a music album or even play an on-line game without someone telling me that their point of view (always the left-wing point of view) is the only "correct" view and those who disagree with them are mean or cruel or more commonly "ignorant".

On PowerUser.TV, we recently discussed how an anti-war protester was protesting in the video game "America's Army" (a game made by the US military as a game/recruitment tool). My response was that that user has every right to do that. But I did note the irony that the US military allows the protester their say while left-wingers work nation wide to ban military recruiters from publicly funded campuses. Tolerance, apparently, is a one-way street.

During the segment, I argued that this sort of thing tends to backfire because it is just another example of anti-war opponents trying to shove their views down the throats of everyone else and few people like that. I mentioned that I happen to support US action and that there had been some pretty positive results in Iraq that seem to be forgotten (20 million people no longer living under Saddam, free elections, etc.). I never implied that I supported US action because I thought we should "liberate" Iraq.

In response, on the PowerUser.TV comments a number of people complained about my beliefs. In fact, they universally used the word "ignorant" to describe my views. Apparently, ones knowledge on a subject is dependent on how closely your opinion matches that of a left-winger. The more you disagree with a left-winger, the more ignorant you are.

The left loves that word "ignorant". It is their way of smugly dismissing people's opinions without having to really consider them. The people insulting me on PowerUser.TV don't know me. They have no idea how much I know or don't know. All they know is that I mentioned, very briefly, that I happen to support US military action in Iraq. That's it. That was enough for them to decide that I'm "ignorant".

Anyone who has bothered to look into my background, what I've done and written and especially anyone who knows me personally I suspect will conclude that I'm not "ignorant". The problem with so many on the left is that they cannot accept that intelligent, well educated, well informed people might have seen the same things they've seen and come to different conclusions.

If I discuss that topic with people who disagree with my conclusions about liberals/left-of-center people, I usually get some sort of moral equivalence argument. Someone will point out Fox News or some right-wing whacko. If you point out Michael Moore you get Ann Coulter thrown in your face. But the pattern is usually something that can most charitably be described as "Look at these hundreds of examples" with moral equivalence being "Oh yea, here's a counter example" as if that makes the two things equal.

You would be hard pressed to find truly equivalent examples of right-of-center people forcing their views on others. A left-winger watching Nascar doesn't have to worry about one of the drivers coming out and saying "And those of you who don't support the war, you are ignorant cowards." Even during the heated recent election, right-wing celebrities didn't go on and say "Yea, the John Kerry is a fucking idiot." (the way several celebrities did to Bush or Bush supporters).

And as we see on that PowerUser.TV thread, it's not me or right-wingers going on and saying how ignorant or cowardly or stupid or uneducated left-wingers are. What's really ironic is that the left's response to the segment proves the point. Center of right people (such as myself) are regularly subjected to left of center dogma in inappropriate venues. But we don't riot about it. We don't try to shout down those who do it. We get annoyed about it and that's about it. That I even mentioned my position (not even making a much of a case for or against the war in Iraq) brought out more posts than any show we've had all using the word "ignorant" and some of them saying things like "Well those people protesting the war are just trying to wake you up."

Apparently, some opinions are simply the "correct" opinions. Those who disagree are "ignorant" and need to be educated. Incorrect opinions need to be subverted, buried, hidden and those who have those opinions shouted down and shamed. The problem with that strategy, in a democracy, is that the voters tend to have the last laugh. Americans don't take kindly to bullies.

Comments (Page 2)

kingbee

on May 31, 2006

Dixie Chicks and radio stations and fans boycotting them

so...one member of a pop music group dares to opine her disapproval of the man who holds the office of president. her remark consisted of a single sentence. if there was a way to compile, evaluate and categorize every public criticism uttered or published by artists and performers about every president of the united states since washington, this specific remark s would almost certainly be counted among the blandest 5%. enlarge the source pool to include editorialists and pundits and i'm guessing 2% would be more realistic.

egged on my their am & fm imams, hundreds of thousands of right-thinking outraged self-proclaimed c&w fans--a fair number of whom milk every microgram of umbrage possible from the zillions of open lesions they suffer due to an alleged unending flow of stuff being powerforced down their throats (think of a prilosec ad) when they're not arming themselves to ensure they'll not be silenced--responded to this single sentence by coalescing in hope of preventing the speaker from continuing to earn a living or, in some cases, going on living.

not satisfied with an apology nor mollified by the passage of time, the drama continues.

mino...great example of ummm. hell i dunno.

what was your point again?

MythicalMino

on May 31, 2006

my point is this, Kingbee, though, I am not sure why I am going to use my time to explain it to you.

The point is this: The Dixie Chicks gave their opinion. Fine, it is their right. So, fans and radio stations gave their opinion in the way that they could, boycotting their music. The Dixie Chicks cry a river, saying it is not fair that fans of country music would do that.

In other words, the left could not handle what they dished out, like usual.

All I ever see you do, though, Kingbee, is defend the left, no matter what it is they do. If there is one person on all of these boards that I can depend on, to come rally around the liberal flag, it is you.

How does the statement go: Blind patriotism to one's political party is the Political Hack's last refuge?

I know you are an intelligent person, Kingbee, I can read what you post. Too bad I terribly disagree with 99% of it, and the majority of my disagreement is the way you carry yourself in a debate, i.e. "mino...great example of ummm. hell i dunno. what was your point again?" To that I say, read what I said

Chris

MythicalMino

on May 31, 2006

and, after re-reading your post....lolololol

that is good ole, typical Kingbee. You degrade an entire group of ppl with generalizational insults, while crying about their own personal opinion.

In other words: the country fans (why didn't you just go on and call them uneducated, ignorant hillbilly rednecks? That is what you were getting at, right? But instead of just being simple, you had to put in your own "intelligent" description?) shouldn't have been allowed to be offended....

Whatever, Kingbee...whatever

TheGuyPC

on May 31, 2006

The point is this: The Dixie Chicks gave their opinion. Fine, it is their right. So, fans and radio stations gave their opinion in the way that they could, boycotting their music. The Dixie Chicks cry a river, saying it is not fair that fans of country music would do that.

In other words, the left could not handle what they dished out, like usual

***************************************************************************************
O.k. this statement just doesn't hold water for me.
If the "Dixie Chicks" cry a river saying that it is not fair that fans of CW music would boycott them over their opinions, how does that automatically translate into the "left" not being able to handle what it dished out?
Again, the "left" is a generalization. How do you criticize another persons generalization and follow it up with one of your own?

I think Kingbee's point was more based in the "what freakin' difference does it make" frame of mind. In the grand scheme of things this doesn't equate with treason or, censorship of anyone. Their words were not associated with any great societal change. Nor was it an epiphany. Without the right making them an issue, most of us wouldn't care less what they think. I for one don't care. And I like country music. Hell, I don't even mind uneducated hillbilly rednecks-as you called them. Though I've met very few and I'm just guessing as to how educated they were. The few I have known were actually proud to be a "rednecked hillbilly". So I'm not sure that this is a huge insult. I understand what you meant though.

Without Fox News and the likes beating the point into peoples heads, over and over again,
it would have been long forgotton. In many cases, these peoples opinions would have never been heard.
Unfortunately they were. And they are still being heard.

And as Kingbee said..... "the drama" continues. Why is the real question.

Island Dog

on May 31, 2006

Let's remember the Dixie Chicks said this while in France. I believe that's what upset people the most.

TheGuyPC

on May 31, 2006

That is a very good point and, one I had forgotten.

Still, they don't even speak for themselves well. They certainly don't speak for me.
Hey! They could move to France! Maybe that would make the issue go away.

No, I guess they are BOTH famous for their wine. Or whine.....oh, crap I'm confused

Taranis

on May 31, 2006

Great post Brad!!!!

I couldn't agree more with what you said,

The true irony about the liberal doctrine is that they don't see how intolerant they are of people with Conservative viewpoints, while they are preaching about how we need to be more tolerant of people with liberal viewpoints!

Chakgogka

on May 31, 2006

The true irony about the liberal doctrine is that they don't see how intolerant they are of people with Conservative viewpoints, while they are preaching about how we need to be more tolerant of people with liberal viewpoints!

I'm not sure that this is true. Americans use the word 'liberal' in a somewhat unusual way (compared to the rest of the planet) to refer to the Left in general. By this token socialists, anarchists, trotskyists, communists etc are all 'liberals'. In fact Liberals (properly understood) pretty much invented the concept of tolerance. That the (far) left does not always act with tolerance is hardly a surprise; they have never even claimed to believe in it.

As to conservatives, I'm not sure how many there actually are in America, where the name is also often inappropriately used by people who are actually right-wing radicals. Radicals (of left and right) are largely disinclined towards tolerance because they are both playing a zero sum game (which involves the other side ending up with zero

)

True conservatives and true liberals by and large have a vested interest in the tolerant exchange of ideas. I used to think that America had a much narrower political spectrum than other western countries (only 2 major parties - one on the centre right, one on the right), but I have come to discover that lurking beneath those anodyne labels of 'liberal' and 'conservative' are a lot of fierce radicals on both wings.

Draginol

on May 31, 2006

TheGuyPC:

First off, you didn't listen to PowerUser.TV did you? No, you just assumed that I went on some political rant. I didn't. The story was about a war protester protesting the war in the "America's Army" video game.

Secondly, I asked for examples in which the right interject politics into inapprpriate venues. Let me give some specific examples:

Watching the MTV Music awards and having someone in their acceptance speech go into a rant about how "evil" the United States is.
Watching the Oscars and seeing the same kind of thing.
Playing a video game and having someone protesting the war during the game.
Attending a class on Computer Science and having the professor go into a rant about Bush.
Having teachers assign your children to write anti-war letters to send to the President
Going to a concert to listen to music only to have the musician start the concert with a rant about Bush, the US, or the war.

The above are all real life things. They have happened and I know of zero examples of right wing people doing that. It's been purely from the left. In your own list, you name one conservative who did something similar and that was they wrote a pro USA song. They didn't make a song attacking someone. They didn't make a song calling those against the war cowards or morons or whatever.

I am not objecting to some musician making an anti-war or pro-USA song. I can choose not to listen to it. Similarly, college commencements can be political though I don't appreciate ones that personally attacking government officials or US policy but if one invites a politician to a commencement, they're going to do the politics thing.

This isn't an equivalence thing here. There are certainly right wing kooks. But in practice, it is almost purely the left that is so arrogance, so disrespectful of other points of view that they would go into a clearly non-political venue and start stuffing their views down the (often captive) audience's throats.

Daiwa

on May 31, 2006

People seem to have gotten well off the subject here.

I'll get corrected if I'm wrong, but Brad's point boils down to this:

Celebrities on the political left who have access to public forums by virtue of their celebrity, often take the opportunity when they have the mike to preach political viewpoints to us, in what they know to be inappropriate (non-political) settings. Then they justify it by contending that it's our problem that we consider the setting inappropriate.

Celebrities on the political right who have access to public forums by virtue of their celebrity, seldom choose to do so. In that, he is correct. He is also correct that the stereotypical mindset of liberals is that conservatives are simply unenlightened, venal or both.

Daiwa

on May 31, 2006

Sorry, Brad. You came back to your defense while I was writing #25.

kingbee

on Jun 01, 2006

So, fans and radio stations gave their opinion in the way that they could, boycotting their music

if they'd confined themselves to doing that, your argument and my throat would be in a lot better shape. i'm not sure why each and every raging righty hadda have a turn at venting his/her outrage (just about what seemed to be happening for a good two weeks following the incident) but the net result was the vast majority of people in this country for whom the whole thing was a non-isssue really did have it shoved down their uncaring throats whenever they turned on a tv, picked up a paper or listened to a radio back then...and now as well.

In other words, the left could not handle what they dished out, like usual.

1. i'd hardly consider the dixie chicks the voice of the left. if you do, you're seriously in need of a long, relaxing time out.

2. a lotta people saw what was happening then as a trainwreck (and considerably more see it now). she wasn't demanding action or demeaning anyone who disagreed with her. she sure the hell didn't seem determined to bankrupt them.

3. even if she was the voice of the left and she'd barred the doors and refused to let anyone leave until they signed an impeachment petition or paid her off, none of yall shoulda been even slightly surprised cuz by now--having endured it for years--you should expect it.

at least you're honest enuff to concede (albeit solely by silent assention) your team 'dishes it out'.

Noumenon

on Jun 01, 2006

Ooh! I've got one. You can sometimes go into a church and hear the preacher complaining about "activist judges." In fact my father is a preacher and can barely resist the urge to tell how Democrats are everything wrong with America. Liberals are more strident, though. Partly they have less access to powerful positions where they can enact their wishes instead of yelling about them, but partly they're just not cool.

Possibly conservatives would rather talk among themselves about how bad the other guy is, and liberals would rather reach out?

TheGuyPC

on Jun 01, 2006

I said- "You are on the right. You interjected your political beliefs into PowerUser.Tv.
I've never watched it myself, but is this a political broadcast?"

To which you replied- " First off, you didn't listen to PowerUser.TV did you? No, you just assumed that I went on some political rant. I didn't. The story was about a war protester protesting the war in the "America's Army" video game"

Besides re-stating what I had clearly said myself, you have twisted my well meant words way out of context. You mentioned in your original post that you discussed political issues and where you stood on the war. I did not refer to anything you did on PowerUser.TV as being a "political rant" . Nor did I assume anything.

You seem to view me as your enemy. You keep lumping the "left" together and you refuse to see that the "right"
are every bit as vicious as the left.
I try not to equate the misguided beliefs of those people with you. I don't see you as my enemy. I'm more interested in understanding your point of view.
I stand by my comments. We can just agree to disagree. (Though I actually agreed with you on a couple of points)

Really nice site BTW. Maybe someday, when I can start my own blog, you'll stop by and say howdy?

kingbee

on Jun 01, 2006

If there is one person on all of these boards that I can depend on, to come rally around the liberal flag, it is you.

How does the statement go: Blind patriotism to one's political party is the Political Hack's last refuge?

that aint how the statement goes (nice try tho). there's no such hting as patriotism to a political party. even if there were, no party represents me so i'm obliged to no party.

as far as rallying around any flag--but even more specifically an imaginary 'liberal' standard only you can see--i hate to have to be the one to pull your coat to something.

you've been deliberately misled by your own team.

past generations of 100% bonafide american conservatives have been spinning in their graves on and off for more than 40 years. not a one woulda willing permitted the country to involve itself in nation-building or regime chance.

they begin revolving even faster every time gonzales is given anohter opportunity to abuse the constitution (which is pretty much every time they offer an opinion). good thing there aint no such thing as avenging ghosts. good, at least, for all those who insult these restless dead by claiming international travel voids the law or that the president has powers above and beyond those of the congress and the court.

i could go on and on and on...but not without a break. i've not even mentioned the complete lack of fiduciary restraint and i'm far too dismayed and depressed to go there now.

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