Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
When confronted, the left retreats?
Published on July 12, 2006 By Draginol In Politics

Little Whip wrote an article here that makes the argument that JoeUser.com has become a kind of "Democratic Underground". To back up her assertion, she points out that many long-time left-wing bloggers have slowly left JU and that many right-wing bloggers get a free pass on some pretty iffy left-wing bashing.

I do agree with her on part of her argument - that right wingers tend to look the other way when "one of their own" starts preaching to the choir. But I don't think that's a right-wing issue as much as it is a human issue, people will tend to give more latitude to those they tend to agree with on most issues.

I also don't agree with her with regards to the core of her argument -- JU being like DU.  There's a big difference: Democratic Underground does not allow conservatives to post or express themselves. It is against the rules there to post "non progressive" posts.  On JoeUser, anyone can post anything they want as long as they aren't personally attacking other individuals (who are not public figures).  We don't discriminate against left wing or right wing bloggers.

What I see instead is something that I think many suspect - that when left-wing ideology is confronted by those who disagree with them, the left-wingers will tend to flee the field because many of their core ideals do not hold up under intellectual scrutiny. That is, when pressed to actually back up their..feelings with facts and logic the left of center debater will eventually leave -- but not usually before going off on a hate-filled rant against the "racist, nazi, greedy scum that is the right."  

I believe that many left-of center debaters simply feel utter loathing towards those who disagree with them. At best, their opponents are ignorant, brainwashed or misguided. At worst they are vile, evil scum who should be exterminated like the vermine they are. At least, that seems to be the attitude they express (And I say this having observed this on many blog sites over the years).

That isn't to say that there aren't plenty of nasty, intolerant right-wing jerks on JoeUser or elsewhere. There certainly are. It's a difference between what is typical behavior and what is atypical behavior.  Whether the subject is taxes, the war in Iraq, welfare, poverty, the environment, you name it, I will normally see the right-winger at least attempt to argue their position with the left-winger just sitting there savaging public figures and eventually their opponents.  I have seen enough lengthy essays arguing for a right-of center point of view only to be followed by a left winger saying "Fuck you." or something to that effect. 

The pattern I see is that left of center people end up fleeing the field because their arguments and behavior alienate lurkers enough for them to jump in as well.  This happens to right-of-center people as well from time to time (a religious debate on JU and elsewhere can get pretty rough too). But it is much more common on left of center.

The other day I went back and looked to see if there was so sort of "bias".  Since I tend to be conservative on some issues (but very liberal on others -- which is another beef I have with many left of center people -- you are either 100% left or you are a right wing nut, I can be pro-choice, pro-environmental regulation, pro-civil unions for gays, and liberal on many other issues but if I support the war in Iraq or US foreign policy or lower taxes then pow, I'm a right wing nut) I wanted to see if there's a bias in what I feature.

And there is -- in favor of left of center people. Bloggers who write left of center blogs are far more likely than bloggers who are right of center to get their articles featured. It is just that right of center bloggers tend to outnumber left of center bloggers by 2 to 1 and more recently 4 to 1 to the point where I am forced to feature stuff like Col Gene's latest "Bush is the devil" blogs in order to get any left-wing points of view on the home page.  I think any reasonable person can observe that it's hard to deny that I'm really really having to reach out there to make sure the JU front page is somewhat balanced.

So what does this mean? My argument is that most left-of-center positions -- their ideology -- is based on feelings rather than logic and that writing, especially written debates, lends itself to conveying logic more so than feelings.  Written debate favors the person using facts, logic, and reason to bolster their position. It is anathema to the person who is relying on feelings, passion, and desire as their tools for social change.

Which isn't to say that all left-wing points of view are based on feeling and all right-wing points of view are based on logic. It only requires that one ideology have more positions based on logic for it to have a significant advantage.  Moreover, if the adherents to a particular ideology tend to be more inclined to use logic in their day to day lives (engineers, scientists, mathematicians, etc.) than using empathy (teachers, artists, etc.) then even if the issue is soemthign that both sides have facts to support their position, the person who is more used to making use of facts to form a position is going to have an advantage.

Do I wish there were more left-of-center people on JU? I do.  Do I get tired of "thatta-boy" type blog responses from right wingers? Definitely.  But I'm not sure what the soluton is other than for left-of-center people to become more tolerant of other points of view and become better at articulating and discussing their points of view rather than simply demonizing, ranting, and "feeling".  There are left of center people on JU who can do this, we need more.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Jul 13, 2006

Most Americans would have a hard time even coming up with things that Europeans even make these days outside of a few luxury cars and wine (some might know that Nokia is based in Finland).

Oooh!  Ooh!  I know one!

Judgements against microsoft!  They made that one!

on Jul 13, 2006
"So when someone, particularly in Europe, says "We laugh at you Americans" it means about as much as people in Quatar laughing at the people in Germany. I doubt the average German would care one way or the other."


I think another problem is the idea that Europe is somehow homogeneous. Sure, they tend to look down their noses at us, but at the same time they look down their noses at each other. Europe to me is a lot like pre-civil war America. They are a bunch of states that need desperately to work together, but just haven't evolved enough as a group to come together in any meaningful way.

Maybe they'll be their own united states eventually, but the EU hasn't made them much more substantial. From here they still look like a bunch of has-been empires with the relative importance of single US states. We most certainly don't care what they think of us, unless we need something to bitch about on a slow news day.
on Jul 13, 2006

I think another problem is the idea that Europe is somehow homogeneous. Sure, they tend to look down their noses at us, but at the same time they look down their noses at each other. Europe to me is a lot like pre-civil war America. They are a bunch of states that need desperately to work together, but just haven't evolved enough as a group to come together in any meaningful way.

Maybe they'll be their own united states eventually, but the EU hasn't made them much more substantial. From here they still look like a bunch of has-been empires with the relative importance of single US states. We most certainly don't care what they think of us, unless we need something to bitch about on a slow news day.

The only time "Europe" acts like its homogenous is when some guy on the Internet claims that the EU has a bigger economy and population than the United States -- as if that means something.

Seriously, as a mental excercise, try to think of something made in Europe that normal people use other than luxury cars and luxury food stuffs.

I managed to think of Nokia cell phones and Ikea.

South Korea, Japan, China, (for example) are easy to come up with tons of things that they make.  But it's hard to think of things made in continental Europe other than various "isms" and unearned pretension. 

Oh and yea, Europe can manage to deal with the massive threat that is Microsoft and fine them going on towards a billion dollars now total but meanwhile, a lunatic nation not that far from them (Iran) is developing nuclear weapons and they can't even manage to get the backbone to put sanctions or anything on them.  Maybe Iran should have bundled Media Player with their nuclear program.

on Jul 13, 2006

The only time "Europe" acts like its homogenous is when some guy on the Internet claims that the EU has a bigger economy and population than the United States -- as if that means something.

Uh, Guilty!  But only to prove a point to a coworker!

But point well taken.  They are as homogenous as neopolitan ice cream.

on Jul 13, 2006

Nah, JU's no DU...it took me exactly three articles to get banned from DU, I wasn't the "right kind of liberal" I guess.  Maybe it's because I stopped wearing patchouli oil when I was a junior in high school.

BTW, for some reason, Brad, I can comment on your articles through your blogsite draginol.joeuser.com, but I can't comment on them off the front-page.  Seems like if the address has www.joeuser.com in it, I'm locked out, I've noticed this on some other articles, too, I can't comment on them from the front page, but I can comment on them on the person's blog page. 

 

on Jul 13, 2006
I read an opinion piece a day or so ago that addressed much of the same issues you bring up here. I wish I had bookmarked it but unfortunately I didn't.

The writer of the piece's premise was that Liberals tend to have a lot of their self worth dependent on their beliefs. What they believe improves and even defines them as a person. This explains why, for them, showing they care about something has as much if not more importance than action with little or no visible/public demonstration.

When their beliefs are belittled by logical means, it is interpreted as an attack upon them personally. If their beliefs are torn down, their sense of self worth goes with it. This writer described it as akin to being punched in the face.

Assuming this is the case, it's no wonder that the left retreats while spewing personal insults at their 'attacker'.
on Jul 13, 2006

Maybe Iran should have bundled Media Player with their nuclear program.

on Jul 13, 2006

Nah, JU's no DU...it took me exactly three articles to get banned from DU, I wasn't the "right kind of liberal" I guess. Maybe it's because I stopped wearing patchouli oil when I was a junior in high school.

I am impressed! 

on Jul 13, 2006
I actually lasted longer on RedState as a liberal than on DU. hahahaha
on Jul 21, 2006
I don't know much about JoeUser. I just read your posts. But if those are a major entry point into the forum, they're part of the problem. It's not just that you say liberal opinions are based on illogic. I could deal with that by linking to Brad Plumer (http:/ /plumer.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_plumer_archive.html#115341743746445210) or Obsidian Wings (http:/ /obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/07/ive_got_a_littl.html) or Unqualified Offerings (http:/ /highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2006/07/20/5315).

The problem is you *disrespect* liberals, you don't just disagree with them. You think their minds and their resolve are weak, their positions unable to stand up to intellectual scrutiny, their arguments incoherent. Worst of all, they aren't competitive businessmen. I can try to convince you of my positions. I can't convince you to respect me.

Maybe I haven't got your exact position pegged there. What I'm trying to do is put into words that when I read you, I don't always read someone with whom I disagree. I read someone who makes me *mad*. Probably it would be the same for you at most liberal sites (do you read any? I bet you troll sometimes...) I think you'd get ticked off eventually at people saying conservatives just can't measure up to forming an opinion based on facts about the world because they're so blindsighted or whatever.

("Forming an opinion based on facts about the world" is what I think liberals do better. Conservatives seem to have good logic, but their premises aren't solid. Does hearing me say that about you make you want to get to know me and come to my site? I bet it doesn't.)
on Nov 23, 2006
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