Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
When confronted, the left retreats?
Published on July 12, 2006 By Draginol In Politics

Little Whip wrote an article here that makes the argument that JoeUser.com has become a kind of "Democratic Underground". To back up her assertion, she points out that many long-time left-wing bloggers have slowly left JU and that many right-wing bloggers get a free pass on some pretty iffy left-wing bashing.

I do agree with her on part of her argument - that right wingers tend to look the other way when "one of their own" starts preaching to the choir. But I don't think that's a right-wing issue as much as it is a human issue, people will tend to give more latitude to those they tend to agree with on most issues.

I also don't agree with her with regards to the core of her argument -- JU being like DU.  There's a big difference: Democratic Underground does not allow conservatives to post or express themselves. It is against the rules there to post "non progressive" posts.  On JoeUser, anyone can post anything they want as long as they aren't personally attacking other individuals (who are not public figures).  We don't discriminate against left wing or right wing bloggers.

What I see instead is something that I think many suspect - that when left-wing ideology is confronted by those who disagree with them, the left-wingers will tend to flee the field because many of their core ideals do not hold up under intellectual scrutiny. That is, when pressed to actually back up their..feelings with facts and logic the left of center debater will eventually leave -- but not usually before going off on a hate-filled rant against the "racist, nazi, greedy scum that is the right."  

I believe that many left-of center debaters simply feel utter loathing towards those who disagree with them. At best, their opponents are ignorant, brainwashed or misguided. At worst they are vile, evil scum who should be exterminated like the vermine they are. At least, that seems to be the attitude they express (And I say this having observed this on many blog sites over the years).

That isn't to say that there aren't plenty of nasty, intolerant right-wing jerks on JoeUser or elsewhere. There certainly are. It's a difference between what is typical behavior and what is atypical behavior.  Whether the subject is taxes, the war in Iraq, welfare, poverty, the environment, you name it, I will normally see the right-winger at least attempt to argue their position with the left-winger just sitting there savaging public figures and eventually their opponents.  I have seen enough lengthy essays arguing for a right-of center point of view only to be followed by a left winger saying "Fuck you." or something to that effect. 

The pattern I see is that left of center people end up fleeing the field because their arguments and behavior alienate lurkers enough for them to jump in as well.  This happens to right-of-center people as well from time to time (a religious debate on JU and elsewhere can get pretty rough too). But it is much more common on left of center.

The other day I went back and looked to see if there was so sort of "bias".  Since I tend to be conservative on some issues (but very liberal on others -- which is another beef I have with many left of center people -- you are either 100% left or you are a right wing nut, I can be pro-choice, pro-environmental regulation, pro-civil unions for gays, and liberal on many other issues but if I support the war in Iraq or US foreign policy or lower taxes then pow, I'm a right wing nut) I wanted to see if there's a bias in what I feature.

And there is -- in favor of left of center people. Bloggers who write left of center blogs are far more likely than bloggers who are right of center to get their articles featured. It is just that right of center bloggers tend to outnumber left of center bloggers by 2 to 1 and more recently 4 to 1 to the point where I am forced to feature stuff like Col Gene's latest "Bush is the devil" blogs in order to get any left-wing points of view on the home page.  I think any reasonable person can observe that it's hard to deny that I'm really really having to reach out there to make sure the JU front page is somewhat balanced.

So what does this mean? My argument is that most left-of-center positions -- their ideology -- is based on feelings rather than logic and that writing, especially written debates, lends itself to conveying logic more so than feelings.  Written debate favors the person using facts, logic, and reason to bolster their position. It is anathema to the person who is relying on feelings, passion, and desire as their tools for social change.

Which isn't to say that all left-wing points of view are based on feeling and all right-wing points of view are based on logic. It only requires that one ideology have more positions based on logic for it to have a significant advantage.  Moreover, if the adherents to a particular ideology tend to be more inclined to use logic in their day to day lives (engineers, scientists, mathematicians, etc.) than using empathy (teachers, artists, etc.) then even if the issue is soemthign that both sides have facts to support their position, the person who is more used to making use of facts to form a position is going to have an advantage.

Do I wish there were more left-of-center people on JU? I do.  Do I get tired of "thatta-boy" type blog responses from right wingers? Definitely.  But I'm not sure what the soluton is other than for left-of-center people to become more tolerant of other points of view and become better at articulating and discussing their points of view rather than simply demonizing, ranting, and "feeling".  There are left of center people on JU who can do this, we need more.


Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Jul 12, 2006
Very insightful and also enlightening!  Thank you
on Jul 12, 2006

There may be a conservative answer to 'Democrat Underground" but I have never found it.  Yet in addition to du, you have the daily Kos and the Puffington Host to name just a couple.  None of these allow dissent from the right.  To say JU is DU is comical and totally misses the basic rules of the site. 

That being said, yes, I do mourn the good left wing bloggers disappearing.  We still have a few, and several that I respect as they do tend to use logic and not feelings.  But then they are not the far left either.  Some could be considered solid left, but none out there with Gore, Dean or Kerry.

I wish they would post more.  Although the Col avers (or use to when I read him) that he was really a conservative - and may have been at one time, he is simply a one trick pony that is at least as tiresome to many as the "atta boy" comments from the right.

But while many left have left, at least the American ones, you may note that most of the international ones have stayed.  At least the ones that write good pieces.  For they are talking issues that we can discuss and at the end of it, agree that each has a part of the truth, even if not the whole truth.

As long as you continue to run JU the way you have, it can never be compared to du, Kos, or PH (or HP) in the least.  They tolerate no dissent.  Ju encourages it.

And I like that.

But I will still write 'atta boys' on the other conservative blogs just to let them know I have read it and agree.  And enough said.  SHould the discussion heat up, we can post more substantive comments.  But most of us are not schizophrenic and so do not tend to argue with ourselves.

on Jul 12, 2006
I'm told I'm a Liberal.... Your welcome to feature my articles even though they don't mention any politics....

I'm kinda one of those 1/2 liberal - 1/2 conservatives... admitedly I have had some times when I aggree with the other left posters, but that they had presented themselves so badly I didn't even want to try and comment and salvage the case. For one, I know I don't have the best 'way with words' so to say... I can just get my point accross most of the time... I've also noticed a lot of the name calling, and it does seem a bit more rampant on the left side, and that's another discouraging factor to getting me into political discussions...

To me Political discussions are for learning... and this only works obviously if facts are used.. name calling doesn't = facts though... both sides do this though... the lefties just seem to break down into it a bit earlier.

Another point, is that in general, the average age of lefties is a lot lower than righties... that probably has something to do with it...
on Jul 12, 2006

I'm told I'm a Liberal.... Your welcome to feature my articles even though they don't mention any politics....

Ohhh!  ANother Zoomba!  Welcome anyway. 

He is a good egg as I am sure you are as well.  From your post, please do comment!  Sounds like you have your ducks in a row.

on Jul 12, 2006

Maybe we should visit political web sites and drop JU Bombs....meaning, get involved in a heated debate and say "well over on JU they'd eat your lunch!"

Buwhahahahaha.

I think the politics on JU are a reflection of politics in our country right now.  It's bland.  But once the big election gets close...things will heat up again.

Maybe.

Ha.

on Jul 12, 2006
I agree that it's very difficult to express a good defense of "touchy feely" position when comfronted with a position that can be defended more easily with logic and facts. Perhaps those left of center (I am on some issues) should hone their skills and learn to use real facts instead of emotional rhetoric. How many times can someone use the word neocon in a sentence anyway?

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Brad.
on Jul 12, 2006
Oh, sorry. Was that an atta-boy?

Oops.
on Jul 12, 2006
Another point, and one that I made on LW's blog is the social reaction to each side's most heinous nuttiness. Right wingers, at their most heinous, call people pinko commie bastards, or traiters, or terrorists, etc. Granted, that's not nice, but I think anyone that is around here long sees the DU drones that come in are far, far more apt to be very personal.

In discussions on, say, gay marriage, it is inevitable that a DU bobblehead will question his opponent's sexuality. Eventually, they'll mention priests molesting kids, and then the whole 'lets bash the Christian religion' tangent will start. Conservatives are personal, sure, but the far left embraces blaspheme and delights in ripping down sacred icons of any kind, whether it be the flag, the cross, whatever.

The only modern exception to that really is Islam, where the far-right tends to be really hateful. In terms of one-on-one discussion, though, I think you will see offenses that break TOS and merit banning far, far more from the Left than the Right. The Leftist perspective has always been about ripping at the softest spots of society; tearing down the icons.

Given the popular perception, though, that makes no sense. The Left is sensitive, culturally respectful, and more apt to care about the feelings of others, right? Wrong. Liberals, the real ones, are sensitive and respectful. Leftists are rarely ever Liberal. Leftists are more often than not little fascists that believe that true social change is made by shoving their will down the throats of the stupid masses with their jackboots.

I think that's where the "American liberalism" in the title is very astute. Americal Liberalism is most often just hedonism with a hypocritical bent. They demand drug legalization while demanding I not be allowed to wear fur. They cry 'my body, my choice' in terms of abortion, and then attempt to make silicone breast implants illegal... for our own good. All sexual practices should be embraced, but you'd better not be a fatty while you do it.

You could list stuff like that for hours. They despise any religion that isn't conservative, and find any pleasure disgusting so long as they don't personally enjoy it. Everyone should be free to rule their own body, so long as a child's BMI doesn't get to high.

That's the Meathead school of "Liberalism", and that's why I more often than not call it 'quasi-Liberalism' these days. Real Liberals don't deserve to be associated with them.
on Jul 12, 2006
To: all.

My approach to JU is perhaps a little different to that of most. I use it as a sounding board, and as a kind of 'captive audience'. It's a medium in which I debate primarily with myself for my own edification. Commentary on what I post is always welcome, and I have been given food for thought by those who've taken the time and made the effort to respond to what I've written - for which I'm grateful and appreciative.

But such responses are, to me, a secondary concern and not the point of what I do here.

Having said that, it's impossible over the long term not to notice the quality and character of what occurs here. And it's become apparent to me that, whether or not I participate in a way that is only secondarily concerned with debate, so that debate for me is an 'added extra' rather than the raison d'etre of what I do here, debate as a function of JU activity is slowly dying.

To me this is a matter of no real importance. I have my own reasons for posting here, I have my own agenda and an overall project that is divorced from the function of JU as a forum of debate. Nontheless, the ascendancy of a tiny minority of posters who, collectively, behave as a pack of piranhas dedicated to feeding off those who espouse a more liberal point of view (it is completely irrelevant, whether I agree with them or no) is a sad thing.

Whatever my purposes here I can't deny that I've derived much entertainment from the ideological/personal debates that, at one time, were the life and soul of this place.

Having been subjected to the whims of our Local God (with which, as I have said elsewhere, I have no dispute) I find it sad that IT will not exercise ITself in the pursuit of that open-ended responsiveness and freedom of thought and speech which I found so attractive a quality of JU in the first place.

Those who can, ought. The one-sided bigotry, the vitriolic persecution of those who disagree with the majority, is a travesty of what JU once was.

As I say, my purposes here are not those of the majority, and I will continue to make use of JU even if it continues along its present course of stifling all debate in the interest of a perfect and repulsive homogeneity of thought. But it will sadden me to see it, if that is what happens.
on Jul 13, 2006
Hi,

long-time lurker here. As an outside observer, I always find it very amusing to read the "nutcasey" opinions on this site. I guess there must be a significant cultural difference between America and Europe (and even more so between the mostly American bloggers on here and Europe), and this probably makes it all sound so totally crazy.

At first, I found it rather shocking and scary, but only until I realized that the bloggers here do not represent the majority of Americans in any way, of course.

Your right-wing vs. left-wing "war" and even the meta-blogs about it, your rationalizations about the Iraq invasion, your rants about former and current presidents and presidential candidates, this all is very funny stuff. It is just not possible for me any more to take any of it seriously.

In the past, I looked up to the great paragon USA in awe. - Today, you are the international laughing stock. - In the future, you will perhaps get to be the scary evil totalitarian superpower, who knows?

But until then, I intend to have my fun lurking here.
on Jul 13, 2006
I'm also an outsider, living in the Netherlands, and I use joeuser to get a better understanding of why Americans have such a different perspective on some issues then me, or at least I used to. I wholeheartily agree with Little-whip here.

For me the main problem with joeuser is in the comment section which has a USENET-like flamewar flavour. Any policital issue, and you can be assured that the name calling will start, making me loose my appetite for reading them at all. And without comments there is no telling what the value of the main article is.
My solution would be a far stricter moderator function to keep the atmosphere here one of tolerance and discussion/debate instead of personal attacks, but I don't know whether that would be feasible at all.
on Jul 13, 2006
U.S marines rape a 14 year old girl ... kill her and her family and burn them death and you are
discussing "liberalism"

FOOLS! the lot of you!
on Jul 13, 2006
Reply By: guy from Europe(Anonymous User)


We aim to please.
on Jul 13, 2006
I've been here for almost 2 years now. I admit that JU is lacking some of the stuff that made me wanna stay when I first came here. But I still think it's a great place.

I too think the name calling is totally unnecesary (I know I am not a saint). The way I see it, it all comes down to when you contradict someones opinion with facts yet the person will not give in and then the constant repetition of the same article or opinion in different forms getting the same facts thrown at them and still not giving in will eventually lead to name calling and instant reaction to a persons reply to anything. Kinda like how it is with Col Gene, I believe that he could make an article about car engines, cake recipes or or the latest action movie and he would still get the same reaction and treatment as he does with hisBush bashing article. I wish he actually did make more articles about anything else, it gets boring after a while and I just end up taking shots at him just to see him blow up.
on Jul 13, 2006

At first, I found it rather shocking and scary, but only until I realized that the bloggers here do not represent the majority of Americans in any way, of course.

Your right-wing vs. left-wing "war" and even the meta-blogs about it, your rationalizations about the Iraq invasion, your rants about former and current presidents and presidential candidates, this all is very funny stuff. It is just not possible for me any more to take any of it seriously.

In the past, I looked up to the great paragon USA in awe. - Today, you are the international laughing stock. - In the future, you will perhaps get to be the scary evil totalitarian superpower, who knows?

But until then, I intend to have my fun lurking here.

I do agree that people here don't represent Americans in general. But they are somewhat representative of large sections of it.  Many Americans do care very much about how the people who represent hteme behave.

As for how the US is looked at internationally, most Americans care what other countries think of them about as much as someone in Germany worries what Quatar thinks of them.  I don't mean that as offensive to my friends in Europe or Asia but I think the biggest problem in US international relations is that Europeans (in particular) have started to realize that Americans don't really care what Europeans think about, well anything because they are so marginal at this stage economically and militarily.  Most Americans would have a hard time even coming up with things that Europeans even make these days outside of a few luxury cars and wine (some might know that Nokia is based in Finland).

So when someone, particularly in Europe, says "We laugh at you Americans" it means about as much as people in Quatar laughing at the people in Germany.  I doubt the average German would care one way or the other.

Similarly, when people in Europe throw a fit about the US invading Iraq, we take it about as seriously as how Argentina felt about the US invading France/Germany in 1944 (where a lot more people died incidentally).  A lot of Americans who support the war find no trouble dismissing Europeans as being subconciously racist -- sure, Europe was worthy to have hundreds of thousands of Americans die to help rid the world of Hitler but getting rid of Saddam makes no sense to them (just as most Europeans seem to have sympathy for the palestinians and loathing towards Israel).  Or put another way, one must consider the source of who is doing the laughing.

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