"What I find obnoxious in some posters views is that they think indecision is somehow more sophisticated or intellectual. It's not. To me, there's nothing intellectual about being unable to come to a specific conclusion, quite the opposite, it just implies they lack the intellectual ability to take all the variables and make a heuristic judgement on it."

You've heard most everybody thinks they're an above average driver -- the fast drivers think they're above average in skill, and the slow drivers think they're above average in safety. In this, too, I think the decision makers think they're above average in speed, and the wafflers think they're above average in accuracy. American culture definitely values the first approach more, but I'll bet they both have value at times. They'd better, otherwise I'll have to apply for an intellectual disability permit.

On the original topic, you say you "came across" this Rasmussen poll but you don't link to it. I thought your conservative audience didn't appreciate being told what to think without being able to see the data? And that's why you were digging through raw poll data yourself instead of finding this as a factoid in a RealClearPolitics article or similar and repeating it as true?

The closest I could come to the original poll wording is at h ttp://www.rasmussenreports.com/USA_fair_and_decent%20November%202004.htm , and you can see some mitigating factors there. The question was "US Society: a) Fair and Decent, or Unfair and Discriminatory"? You can pick up some votes on the 'discriminatory' phrasing, especially among blacks (who vote Democrat). For example, if you'd phrased the question "US Society: a) Fair and Decent, or Unfair and Immoral?" you would have got a lot of Christian conservative Republicans a little more likely to pick (. From the poll, 31% of Democrats believe "most Americans are racist." I think that would explain why they picked ( at the same time they would agree to the phrase, "men like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln were heroes who created a great nation."

Debate: Debate is a formalized system of (usually) logical argument. Rules governing debate allow groups and individuals to discuss and decide issues and differences.

To me it seems that hardly anyone on this site actually does any debating seeing as debating would require both parties (or more) to reach a “middle ground” as oppose to “sticking to your guns”.

Argument: In logic, an argument is an attempt to demonstrate the truth of an assertion called a conclusion, based on the truth of a set of assertions called premises.

Now this sounds more like what is going on here. Everyone feels that what they believe in has to be true and that no one else’s opinion is right. This same concept applies to politics, at least today’s politics. This is the reason this country is not where it should be. I love this country; I wouldn’t change it for the world. Is it the best place on this planet? Not necessarily, it doesn’t have to be the best place, just good enough for me.

asked whether the person thought the United States was a fair and decent country.

Again, I repeat: Is America a fair and decent country.

While these 2 quotes are not worded the same, it seems obvious that they both meant the same. What do I get from this? Again, obviously this meant the American people, not the land (duh the land does nothing for decency or fairness), not the Gov’t alone, but included. I have to agree with both DrGuy and Draginol that this is a simple question and that there is really no need to discuss, take time to think or debate the question at all. This question is based on what is on a persons mind “at the moment” during what is happening “at this moment” around the US and anything the US is involved in. This was not a life or death question, a decisive question or a question to end all questions.

I think, as a whole, America (or the US) is fair and decent. We do our best to be what we say we are, though we don’t always get it right. But at least we try. We are not perfect, we only want what we think is best, not just for us, but for everyone around the world. Of course not everyone will agree with us and that’s understandable, not everyone thinks like we do. But we can at least send the message that we want peace, even if that’s not exactly what our Gov’t seems to imply.

There is no denying the US needs some fine tuning, that the average American can use some educating when it comes to politics, that we shouldn’t always expect others to greet us with open arms. That does not make us bad people though, we just made some bad choices and now we have to learn to live with them and deal with them. The deal with them part is what we have the most trouble with.

Do Democrats hate America (or at least don't like it much)?

I wouldn’t say hate, otherwise why have a party to run for something you hate. I would say they don’t like what America is today. But that’s their choice, their opinion and their God given right to think what they want. It does not affect me in the least. The poll does make it seem that they do not like it, and there are some here that live off of using polls to bash Bush as much as possible, it would be ironic that they would complain about this poll.

Actually I do place a good part of why I feel we aren't as good and decent as you say on this administration. Never before have we had such polarizing leadership that divides people on the basis of either being with us, or against us. Since when did we have an administration go around basically calling anyone not agreeing with them "Traitors" to our country?

If you want to create legions of angry people that dislike this country, this is the way to do it, and this administration succeeded in doing that dramatically. You can further create anger and seperate by repressing the lower and middle class through anti-consumer laws, tax cuts for the rich kids, and everything else. They did that too, which creates even more anger among the other side.

So you see, I do blame this administration for this debacle we are in right now as a country. I also blame the republican morons in the majority. I also blame corporate greed being a willing party to all of this. I sit here, waiting for the eventual liberal tidalwave to flood this country, I can't wait to see all of the right wingers cringe.

Actually I do place a good part of why I feel we aren't as good and decent as you say on this administration.

Which is assinine.  It is like hating your best friend because of the outfit she wore one day.

It is like hating your best friend because of the outfit she wore one day. - Doc. Guy

Sure, Doc., but she keeps wearing the same outfit day in day out. A pattern of behaviour is beginning to show. It's not exclusive to the executive branch either....

Throw them all out!

Sure, Doc., but she keeps wearing the same outfit day in day out. A pattern of behaviour is beginning to show. It's not exclusive to the executive branch either....

An outfit is still an outfit.  The analogy is apt.  I didn't like the Clinton administration very much but it had no impact on my opinion of America.

My opinion of my town being a fair and decent town is not affected by whoever is mayor. 

I don't agree with the policies of France AT ALL but I think France is a fair and decent country.

The policies of a country are a part of it's whole. If my town suddenly adopted some outrageous policies such as curfews or put up checkpoints throughout my city it's 'fair and decent' points would get a few knocked off.

I think a bit less of America because of some of the policies we've adopted.

I believe this 'Is America Fair and Decent' is becoming a new 'Support the Troops'. Some sort of blanket statement used to divide people in to two groups - those within and those without - absolutely ignoring the mixed bag of truth and disallowing citizens the ability to approach issues 'ala carte'.

Quibbling over definitions of ‘debate’ and whether this post is simply about a ‘poll’ are straw dog arguments. It is, as has already been observed quite simple. Based on a poll asking whether ‘America is a fair and decent country’ Draginol has then conflated that outcome with therefore meaning that democrats ‘hate or dislike’ America.

This is a syllogistic fallacy. He is drawing a conclusion from two distinct propositions as if one automatically equates with the other. What is the relation between ‘fair and decent’ and ‘hate and dislike’? It is an assumption not a fact. And yet Draginol has acted on it as if it were a fact. If the poll were instead ‘do you ‘hate or dislike’ america and the results were the same, that would be a fact and perhaps worthy of discussion.

I may not think America is a fair or decent place at this time but that does not mean I necessarily must dislike or hate it. Life cannot be reduced to such simplistic certainties. At least not for some. One wonders therefore the motivation behind such a post.

Is the point of this conversation to broaden discussion and to explore why people think and feel the way they do about politcal issues? Or is it really about labeling people and demonizing one side in order to make one’s own side feel superior? And is not JU’s point of difference that it does not simply follow other political sites in their own dichotomizing and intolerance to differing points of view?

Mr. Roberts - the point of a blog is for writers to express opinions. I can draw my own conclusions from a poll and you can disagree with those conclusions.

It hardly makes your point of view or your opinions more valid than mine.  If someone says to me that they don't think America is a fair and decent country, I interpret that to mean they don't like our country very much.  You don't agree. That's fine.

And while some people find endless amusement trying to inflate their intellectual qualifications by labeling the opinions of others as "simplistic" or "lacking nuance" (as liberals tend to do of conservatives) I'll happily accept that I tend to boil down data into quantifiable action items.  It doesn't, however, mean that I'm intellectually limited or lacking vision, it means that I choose to reach specific conclusions whereas liberals like to swim around in endless shades of gray, stymied into indecision.

That is why, in the real world, conservatives do tend to run things because at the end of the day, leaders do have to make decisions and those decisions are often quite "simplistic". They have to wade through a minutia of data and extract quantifiable action items.

 

"Mr. Roberts - the point of a blog is for writers to express opinions. I can draw my own conclusions from a poll and you can disagree with those conclusions.

It hardly makes your point of view or your opinions more valid than mine. If someone says to me that they don't think America is a fair and decent country, I interpret that to mean they don't like our country very much. You don't agree. That's fine." draginol.

as I have already stated, i have not, and do not deny you the right to express your own opinion draginol, nor your freedom to interpret information in whichever way you choose. what i have questioned is the validity of your conclusion based on the premise you have proposed.

rather than justifying your own position by presenting arguments that imply or state things that i have never said perhaps you would gain more credibility if you addressed the central issue upon which your own premise is fallaciously based. you have asserted as fact that the statement 'fair and decent country' is the same as 'disliking and hating' that country. not similar, not implies. but the same. i have simply refuted that assumption as being fact and questioned your agenda.

by generalizing reality to a political affiliation you then extrapolate that position to also mean therefore that ALL democrats 'hate or dislike' america. who are these labels you are so predisposed to trafficking in draginol? i do not see people as labels. i see people as people, subjects who may identify with a political position but certainly cannot be quantified in such absolute terms. we are far too complex and contrary a creature to be so simplistically reduced to a cypher.

"And while some people find endless amusement trying to inflate their intellectual qualifications by labeling the opinions of others as "simplistic" or "lacking nuance" (as liberals tend to do of conservatives) I'll happily accept that I tend to boil down data into quantifiable action items." draginol.

it is because your position is simplistic draginol. it is because it does not allow for real nuances of meaning that make up the complexity of who people are and the way they see the world. but most of all it because it is divisive. you do not wish to relate to me as a person. you wish to relate to me as a label; as a preconceived prejudice. and that, i would put to you, is a large part of why so many liberals have departed this forum and no longer engage in discussion anymore. perhaps you are not so unalike DU after all.

I think there is a great deal of evidence to indicate that Democrats do not like "America". Where that is defined not just by our foreign policies but our culture, our way of life, our basic core principles.

Sue earlier articulated the view that I suspect a significant percentage of Democrats share -- we are a greedy, selfish, short sighted nation that wrecks other cultures, neglects its poor, is full of racism, and takes things that are good and homogonizes it into an instant gratification package for mass production.

That's not exactly what she said but I suspect she would agree with what I just wrote.  There were other parts of the poll in the link in the article that back up my view further -- a large percentage of Democrats don't think other countries would be better off being more like the United States. I think that makes it pretty obvious that they're not thinking of specific foreign policy choices of a particular executive administration.

As for the rest of your...statement... some things are pretty simple. And I am aware that a lot of people, mostly on the left side of the political spectrum, are very uncomfortable making generalizations (unless it's about people they don't like). But at the same time, your comments are largely endless pontification without really adding anything substantial to the conversation.

Your endless paragraphs could be distilled into  "Wah, you're generalizing".  When I go to the polls in November, I don't have the luxury of having a candidate that is two teaspoons of candidate A and a dash of candidate B. I have to pick one or the other. It's the same decision millions of Americans have to make.  And I believe there is sufficient evidence to indicate that Democrats, far more so than Republicans, do not think America is a very good country as it is and they are not saying that just because of US foreign policy.  I think the poll results would largely be the same even if taken during the Clinton administration.

If you want to disagree with my opinion or conclusions, that's fine. Do so, put forth your own argument.  But please spare us another lengthy post complaining about how "simplistic" my argument is.  Because it's infinitely more complex than vapor which is all I see from Democrats in this thread.

 

Sure, Doc., but she keeps wearing the same outfit day in day out. A pattern of behaviour is beginning to show. It's not exclusive to the executive branch either.... Throw them all out!

Your love is shallow then. I do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sorry, even in the dark sex induced craze of the Clinton years (which as a parent I will never forgive him for), I never hated America! I just KNEW we could do better, and we did. Maybe not the best, but a damn site better than a blow job as the world falls.

I don't hate America, Doc., but we do need throw out those old clothes - meaning tossing out most of the incumbents.

I'm starting to believe it extremely important that we begin specifying what it is we like and don't like about America instead of straight yea! or nays! . It's pretty obvious using this question in this way doesn't serve anybody well.

What I like about America:

The Freedoms we Used To Have (credit to George Carlin for that one)

The best economy in the world

Our State and National Parks

The liberal culture of America

The stable and fruitful government

The majority of it's people

The majority of the race and religion of the people (I apologize to those who may find that offensive, I simply feel most comfortable with other W.A.S.P's though I appreciate some time with more diverse groups)

What I don't like about America:

The majority of it's leaders

The majority of our policies

The path of our economy (deficet spending and largest debtor nation)

The overly liberal culture of America

The pollution of our lands

The apathetic and lackadaisacal attitude of some of the 'citizens' in this country


So what do other JU users like and don't like about America?

We can pick and choose.

"If you want to disagree with my opinion or conclusions, that's fine. Do so, put forth your own argument. But please spare us another lengthy post complaining about how "simplistic" my argument is. Because it's infinitely more complex than vapor which is all I see from Democrats in this thread."

let's talk about that 'vapor' then draginol. i have addressed the central premise of your proposition in direct terms and shown it to be wanting. you, however, seem content to traffic in generalizations and straw arguments which i have shown to be based upon insubstantial supposition. is sue really to speak for all democrats? and how can she when you are putting words into her mouth?

perhaps if i simplify things it might help. you seem to prefer that.

exactly how is not 'fair and decent' the same - not similar, not comparable - but identical as 'hate and dislike'? and exactly how does that necessarily also mean, therefore, that all democrats 'hate and dislike' america?

perhaps draginol if you had the intellectual integrity to admit that your argument is based upon subjective simplistic supposition rather than the absolute certainty you somehow seem to think it represents you would not be blinded to nature of your own bigotry. now there's a thought.

a large percentage of Democrats don't think other countries would be better off being more like the United States. I think that makes it pretty obvious that they're not thinking of specific foreign policy choices of a particular executive administration.

That's actually a fairly non-political perspective. Most foreign countries wouldn't like to be like the US; they want to be like themselves. If Democrats can recognise that I would have thought it to be an advantage in their foreign policy (assuming of course they can ever regain control). Bush's elites made the mistake of assuming all thought the US was desirable when they moved into Iraq. Their patriotism hasn't really been proven as wise yet.