One of the guys had sunglassed on the news program, perhaps he really was blind, perhaps these guys really are American Muslims, perhaps they did nothing wrong.

I just don't see the "over whemling evidence of terrorist activity" something yes, obviously uncomfortability with being Muslim in America after 9/11 obviously with Americans on that flight being uncomfortable with them. I can't say that any of us are exactly in our element traveling on an airplane but the evidence here doesn't exactly point to a dry run on terror, it points to facts distortion and poor application of common sense.

The guy who wanted to upgrade to first class wanted to buy his friend a better seat.

"Allah allah allah" sounds a lot like Allah to akbar, if you are listening for Allah lol.

The guys showed up, with uh their mid-sections that they obviously didn't attain overnight, I've been working on my beer gut for years, and it's still got a ways to go. Plane seats are uncomfortable to sit it, and I don't like seatbelts in general, so if the plane isn't taxing to the runway, or even moving on the tarmac there is no reason to put them on.

This "up to something" you've mentioned is plausible as is it equally plausible or even more so that these guys were merely flying home after a religious trip, and participating in their religious customs, disruptive or not, they say not, the lady who noted it even said it "wasn't too unusual"

From the facts and evidence I see, the airline staff made the right decision in light of how the evidence lined up at the time, however this is as much a case of irrational airline hysteria as anything else. If these guys had been boarding a greyhound bus instead of an airplane nobody would have thought twice about any of this because there is nothing to run wild with.

If it was logical for a second for anyone to conclude that Al Qaeda or anyone who would want to do us harm would want to draw attention to themselves at both the gate and on board the plane, so as to have themselves removed or the plot spoiled thats contradictory and silly. Have a political argument isn't a crime. Being a Muslim and flying on a plane isn't a crime. Being suspicious isn't a crime either.

Nothing was found either in their statements, their luggage, their history, what the hell do you want, if this kind of anxiety keeps you up at night. Talk to you dr. about getting something to sleep. I'd fly with these guys anytime.

What's wrong here wasn't these guys flying but your lack of dismissing the situation as a misunderstanding or even creepy behavior. "Were up to something" yet what exactly is that supposed to mean? I see neither the airlines, or the airport police, federal screeners, FBI, Dept or Homeland security, as a direct result of this incident reducing security measures. If anything the measures will only increase and the measures already in place, reasoning for them reinforced given the current world climate of terrorism and airplanes.

But thats not what this incident was, more and more it's becoming clear that this was pure and simple hysteria. If you want to live your life, with the freedom we have and hold dear, if you want to live it afraid of everything and everybody that's different, suspicious, go ahead. If you want to call me nieve, of tell me I'm not intelligent, or rip down my point of view in favor of your own, do as you please, this is probably the last time I post on JU anyway.

But it's pretty clear this wasn't a terrorist action, dry run, unlikely as any dry run would want to proceed under the radar, political statement maybe, but also unlikely given the statements they made on television about how perposterous and ridiclious this situation was, certainly it's about as ridiclious as locking up Japanese Americans during WW2 without cause.

I'll applaude the airlines for doing the right thing and verifying and allowing the police to conduct an investigation rather then just bowing to political correctness and just allowing the flight to fly. But I'll also give the American Public in general a failing grade in being subjective enough in the matter. The only trigger in this situation was running up a bill of suspicions and then also being Muslim or of Middle Eastern descent. As the authorities in the matter concluded correctly, those elements, do not a crime, make.

One of the guys had sunglassed on the news program, perhaps he really was blind, perhaps these guys really are American Muslims, perhaps they did nothing wrong.

I just don't see the "over whemling evidence of terrorist activity" something yes, obviously uncomfortability with being Muslim in America after 9/11 obviously with Americans on that flight being uncomfortable with them. I can't say that any of us are exactly in our element traveling on an airplane but the evidence here doesn't exactly point to a dry run on terror, it points to facts distortion and poor application of common sense.

The guy who wanted to upgrade to first class wanted to buy his friend a better seat.

"Allah allah allah" sounds a lot like Allah to akbar, if you are listening for Allah lol.

The guys showed up, with uh their mid-sections that they obviously didn't attain overnight, I've been working on my beer gut for years, and it's still got a ways to go. Plane seats are uncomfortable to sit it, and I don't like seatbelts in general, so if the plane isn't taxing to the runway, or even moving on the tarmac there is no reason to put them on.

This "up to something" you've mentioned is plausible as is it equally plausible or even more so that these guys were merely flying home after a religious trip, and participating in their religious customs, disruptive or not, they say not, the lady who noted it even said it "wasn't too unusual"

From the facts and evidence I see, the airline staff made the right decision in light of how the evidence lined up at the time, however this is as much a case of irrational airline hysteria as anything else. If these guys had been boarding a greyhound bus instead of an airplane nobody would have thought twice about any of this because there is nothing to run wild with.

If it was logical for a second for anyone to conclude that Al Qaeda or anyone who would want to do us harm would want to draw attention to themselves at both the gate and on board the plane, so as to have themselves removed or the plot spoiled thats contradictory and silly. Have a political argument isn't a crime. Being a Muslim and flying on a plane isn't a crime. Being suspicious isn't a crime either.

Nothing was found either in their statements, their luggage, their history, what the hell do you want, if this kind of anxiety keeps you up at night. Talk to you dr. about getting something to sleep. I'd fly with these guys anytime.

What's wrong here wasn't these guys flying but your lack of dismissing the situation as a misunderstanding or even creepy behavior. "Were up to something" yet what exactly is that supposed to mean? I see neither the airlines, or the airport police, federal screeners, FBI, Dept or Homeland security, as a direct result of this incident reducing security measures. If anything the measures will only increase and the measures already in place, reasoning for them reinforced given the current world climate of terrorism and airplanes.

But thats not what this incident was, more and more it's becoming clear that this was pure and simple hysteria. If you want to live your life, with the freedom we have and hold dear, if you want to live it afraid of everything and everybody that's different, suspicious, go ahead. If you want to call me nieve, of tell me I'm not intelligent, or rip down my point of view in favor of your own, do as you please, this is probably the last time I post on JU anyway.

But it's pretty clear this wasn't a terrorist action, dry run, unlikely as any dry run would want to proceed under the radar, political statement maybe, but also unlikely given the statements they made on television about how perposterous and ridiclious this situation was, certainly it's about as ridiclious as locking up Japanese Americans during WW2 without cause.

I'll applaude the airlines for doing the right thing and verifying and allowing the police to conduct an investigation rather then just bowing to political correctness and just allowing the flight to fly. But I'll also give the American Public in general a failing grade in being subjective enough in the matter. The only trigger in this situation was running up a bill of suspicions and then also being Muslim or of Middle Eastern descent. As the authorities in the matter concluded correctly, those elements, do not a crime, make.

Sorry about the double post, would remove but unable.

According to the police report these guys were denied passage on the flight even before the suspicious behavior on the plane.
"This is a moronic statement. If they had been denied passage prior, they wouldn't have been on the damn plane."

You are correct, I'm a moron, I typed it incorrectly and then didn't re-read it to make sure it read correct. Let me fix it. According to the police report, these guys were to be denied passage on the flight even before the suspicious behavior on the place because of the suspicious activites in the terminal i.e. praying, and asking to upgrade their flight seat, and tearing up a piece of paper and discarding it.

Definetly suspicious sh*t.

"due to suspicious activity that another passenger witnessed prior to boarding the flight."

Was the exact quote in the police report. I apologize for being a moron, jerk.

I want to introduce a hypothetical without being called a strawman or apologist or activist, just for some rhetorical thought, please don't ask me to defend this because again it's just a hypothetical...

But what could be more troubling is that if the combination of activities here, save the praying outloud, which by the way is how Muslims do it, were to be observed by someone who was not Muslim, not wearing garb, just a little weird looking or even straight looking, business suit etc...

tearing up papers in the terminal,
asking to upgrade his seat,
asking for a seatbelt extender but not buckling up before take-off,
requesting to switch seats,
critizing the war in Iraq with another flight passenger while waiting for an extended time on the tarmac,
getting up three times during a flight to talk to another passenger who was flying with them,

A white guy wearing a denim jacket doing all these things might not be reported yet they could equally be as possible of being a terrorist as any Muslim. If you guys will recall the DC sniper shooting and the color of the "box truck", I don't even need to say it, but I would wager 90% of Americans could recall the color of box truck being looked for... I'm not trying to bring a white/black/middle eastern color or color debate in here at all, what I am saying is if you are looking for a duck in a pond, or a white box truck in traffic, or a Muslim dressed in the garb on a plane, and either of the subjects is there, then you tend to focus in on them.

The next attack should, one occur, will probably be perpertrated by another camoflagued threat at a weakly defended target. To suggest that the possibility of anything occuring on a plane such as a hijacking is highly unlikely. I mean I'd say the odds at this point of a hi-jacking are of an American civillian jet to be less then that of being stuck by lightning. For terrorism attacks to succeed they have to overcome all the barriers that are in place to prevent them. In the area of airport security it is quite obvious there is no longer a credible threat.

Now terror can also succeed if you create it yourself based on illogical fears which is exactly what has happened. If you can't live a life not cowering in fear, and without soiling yourself sitting next to someone who isn't exactly like you but that has just as much right and reason to be there then thats too bad.

As for the Imams' bringing a lawsuit of discrmination against them, I believe yet I have seen no evidence or legal filling, that the lawsuit it not targeted against the airline for the initial de-planing which is the airlines' right and responsibility. They are legally as well as ethically obligated to deplane and not allow boarding of any passenger who constitutes a real or perceived danger to any passenger or the plane itself. We can agree on that correct? However, the next day, after the FBI/local cops/Secret Service, United States Marshall's Office, not only questioned their motives and means, but checked their history, and found nothing. Read the official police report statement.

"All subjects were subsequently released without charge from the Police Operations Center."

They were, even after being cleared of any criminal action, and any form of wrongdoing what so ever, not even to be charged with disorderly conduct for having to have had the police called to remove them, even after all of this, the airline would not allow them to fly. So they are allowed to sue. Is it extortion? Maybe that remains to be seen, unless the airline can prove they still constitute a threat to the airline, passengers, or plane after such time that they were released from the custody of the authorities.

My opinion on the airlines decision, is that the first decision to check out the situation was correct, but the second decision to prevent their return home was wrong. They have as much right as anyone else to be compensated for the wrongs. If you don't agree with me thats fine, not like either of us weighing in makes a difference anyway.

If you don't constitute a threat on either day, but one day you are allowed to fly and booked and sold a ticket, and the next day you are not, that is definetly discrimination.

I apologize for being a moron, jerk.

Don't apologize. You can't help it if you're a moron, asshat,

No problem but you can't continue to hide behind fear forever, and being irrational about this and treating the people who would sooner see our country living beyond the fear, moronic and asshats, you can do better and you should.

This is fear, this is irrational, and the case where the airline refused to board these guys after they had been cleared by the agencies and authorities is discrmination.

This is a country that was founded on the idea of everybody living under the same law and same standards and following the same rules. We've never been perfect on that and that's ok, if you make the effort, usually it's been three steps forward one or two steps back. On the 11/20 the airline made the right move deplaning and checking to make sure that everything was safe for all passengers. The next day, we took a step back when the airline caved into fear.

Again these men have done nothing wrong, committed no crime, except to be Muslim and be suspicious. I have the feeling here, that everything Muslims do is suspicious in this new climate of anything goes to stop terrorism.

That's wrong.

Call me whatever names make you feel good about yourself.

It is clear I am no longer welcome here at JU, and neither is the voice of reason so rather then debate or antagonize anyone here further I bid you farewell for now. I want to wish you all a very Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and Happy Holidays.



It's been fun posting but I've got to move on.

Call me whatever names make you feel good about yourself.

If you don't want to be called names, don't call people names. Don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you.

It is clear I am no longer welcome here at JU

Dan, you make yourself unwelcome. To my knowlege, which is quite limited in this respect, that nobody, including Draginol has blacklisted you. So if you feel you have embaressed yourself to the point you feel that you need to leave JU; well, maybe you need to rethink the way you post here.

Then you can welcome yourself back, as you have unwelcomed yourself out.

Nobody is asking you to leave, it's your choice.

It's not that I don't feel like I have anything to offer or contribute, or that there is anyone in particular who feels I don't either, it's mainly that I spend a fair bit of time, in fact probably too much time, reading up on what other people post, legit or not, and trying to explain to myself why they feel the way they do. It's great for learning about the world and cool to at least be able to discuss things with others, just not very fast and easy, I've tried to refrain from the "drive by posting" like "MasonM" here so elegantly displayed. But the fact is I just simply don't have the time between working really hard on two different stories, work, and holiday shopping, as well as my passion for flight sims, and computer games in general.

It's been a really unique perspective enhancer and the exposure to information I don't normally get or necessarily seek has proven to be invaluable. As I said before. It's been fun posting but I've got to move on. At least for now. I don't have the time to devote daily or even in the week, to post as often as I'd like or on as much as I'd like. Unfortunately, for the great discussers/debaters at this stage of my life I'm unable/willing to commit the time to be able to bring the argument/discussion into terms I'm comfortable with.

I do feel though that rather then sometimes being the voice of a different opinion, that I am frequently the voice of the "wrong" opinion rather then just another opinion. Whether that be my own perspective more then anyone elses it is part of why I've decided to back off. There are other areas of the internet that host a larger and broader cross section of opinions, at least in my opinion then JU. I think perhaps what's wrong with the situation is my opinion here, rather then much else.

So to remedy that, I'm going to use a little of that scientific method, and add a control, and depart the scene for a bit if not longer.

Cheers.

Are the "Flying Immams" anything like "The Flying Elvises"... Is there a Utah chapter? ;~D

 

This is just another example of how the MSM are willing accomplices with terrorist groups.  There was every reason to kick these guys off that plane, the reporters know it, yet they continue to make these Immams out to be victims.

Blogging reveals the pro terrorist journalists for who they really are!  Good Job Brad!

Are the "Flying Immams" anything like "The Flying Elvises"... Is there a Utah chapter? ;~D

 

This is just another example of how the MSM are willing accomplices with terrorist groups.  There was every reason to kick these guys off that plane, the reporters know it, yet they continue to make these Immams out to be victims.

Blogging reveals the pro terrorist journalists for who they really are!  Good Job Brad!

"Flying Imams were up to something"

Is it just me or is this the funniest title?

Hey Charles I was asking his opinion since he posted on the topic when another thread on the same issue was already started?

Ever ask yourself why Brad posted articles at all? Maybe because they are his opinions on some of todays topics?

Am I not allowed to speak here anymore? Is that against the rules?

Another dumb question considering this is a blog site. It's not about not speaking, it's about asking silly questions that already have answers in the article itself. There's nothing wrong with some debate, but hows about you ask him something about the topic that you think is wrong rather than ask questions which you already have answers to? I love it when people have a difference of opinions, it makes for fun debates, but when questions like your are made, it only seem to insight looking for trouble or just wanting to annoy for the heck of it.