Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Why tempt fate?
Published on April 28, 2004 By Draginol In Life Journals

I decided to exile one of our more vocal users for a day after sending him an email. I had meant to do it last week when he got caught using a fake user to create a second account to disparage his various enemies (real or imagined). It was designed as a shot across the bow. I don't really like exiling anyone because it takes energy to do that (i.e. I don't like doing things that negative affect others) when I really have a lot of other things to work on.

Things with JoeUser.com have gone differently than we had imagined. Net communities are fairly predictable in their evolution. You attract a hard core group at the start and then you take a very very hard line relatively early on to drive off the napoleaonic wannabes. You see, in most net communities, you have people "regulars" who post often and believe that their very presence gives them "power" to dictate the rules to others. Healthy net communities discourage these people because they end up trying to build tight cliques that end up abusing their soft power on newcomers who don't fall into line.  So what we've done on our other net communities is try to discourage those kinds of people from getting too comfortable.

On WinCustomize.com, we lost about a third of the regulars in the first few months. We intentionally took a hard line on a range of issues that later on we became much softer on. I think the difference on JoeUser.com is that the authority is less delegated. On WinCustomize, there were several of us who were very publicly available to cut the would-be Napolean's at the knees. That's unlike here at JoeUser.

As I go through the forums I already see what I consider to be an unhealthy clique building. Not one particular clique but several. Over time, these cliques can exert a soft power to intimidate newcomers to the site and hence be able to mold the overall atmosphere at the site. Such cliques tend to be elitist. The same thing has gone on at our other sitmes from time to time. The difference is that there hasn't yet been a mass exodus of regulars from JoeUser. The reason this sort of thing is important is because the regulars who leave are quite certain that their departure will spell the doom of a given site that they frequent. I remember on WinCustomize the prediction that the site was going to "flop" because so many "old timers" from "the community" had abandoned the site because we would not recognize their inherent widsom and make ourselves subservient to it.

I think on JoeUser that things are much more complex because we want people to feel like their blogs are their own. They should feel comfortable to write about whatever they want. We don't want to hve to censor people....On the other hand, we (and me in particular) don't want people using our resources to trash us. Why should I put all this energy (and money) into the site so some guy can come on and harass me from blog to blog or use his own blog to trash me?  You can see the cunumdrum.

So here's my two cents (train of thought) on the matter:

1) Unless you're paying for yoru blog, you're not a customer. I'm not your servant. I don't work for you. Show some respect for those providing something to you free of charge. That respect can come in the form of simply not going out of your way to piss on the admins.

2) If you write an article and I come onto it and disagree with you, then I'm fair game. If I'm nasty in my response (in your opinion) you're free to return the favor in your response to me. You can even blacklist me from your blog if you find something I write obnoxious. You won't be penalized for blast listing me and in fact it might just be a sign of sound judgement on your part. But related to that, admins can't truly be blacklisted. It simply makes a note by the message box that this user has black listed me. I can still respond and reserve the right to in a pinch but will make an honest effort to respect your wishes.

3) I make no qualms about fairness. Use common sense. We're not on equal ground here. One's "soft power" of influence is meaningless if your opposition is an Admin. Besides that, soft power is related to the popularity of the articles. I have 4 of the top 5 most popular articles presently and 7 of the top 10. So right now the "admins" have the soft power and the hard power. So users shouldn't imagine leverage that they don't have.

4) It's not about meanness or niceness. It's about respect for one another. Respect others and you will find yourself receiving in return. Some of the best users on this site have very different philosphies than I do but they are intelligent and respectul of others and get it in return.

So that's my little rant for the evening.

 

 


Comments (Page 1)
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on Apr 28, 2004

Anything to curb the message-board-style cliques is good as far as I'm concerned.

One thing I'd like to see is a way to limit the amount of points someone gets for people chatting in the comments like this was a message board.  Perhaps decaying value of comments, such as:  the first comment = 5, second = 4, etc, evenually every 5 comments earns a point.   Or better yet, you only get "comment point" for each INDIVIDUAL person who comments.   So if Joe and Susan "chat" back and forth with 15 comments, the blog only gets credit from each of them once.

 

on Apr 28, 2004
You know what Brad... after your little capitalism comment I was seriously thinking of rocking the boat a little...

I love it here, If i didn't I would have left a long time ago... Much respect to the admins... I look at our first encounters, and even you must admit i have come along way since then... I was just purely dis-respectful to you and your beliefs...

It works both ways though you know... I think i am one of those regulars you refer to, however, I dont think I command any respect from you whatsover... My current position is one I have worked ever so hard to acheive, and I would perhaps like a little recognition from you guys...

You dont get a second chance to make a first impression, and our original encounter must have sullied your opinion of me dramatically... I am just saying that someone like me is valuable in a net community, the numbers speak for themselves... however, I am a brush away from leaving because I will never get the assistance I perceive your favorites receive. I am not one of these Napoleans you speak of, alas, I feel i will never get any credit from you... you might as well tell me now... because obviously this community is important to me... and you are the leader of this community whether I like it or not, and if you dont respect me, then I have no chance...

Just because I am light hearted and jovial doesn't make me stupid.

BAM!!!

on Apr 28, 2004

You're not one of the napoleans....but you feel like you should get some respect and recognition?   If you care about the soft-power of recognition that brad was describing, then you ARE one of those people.

Its a blog. It's like a half step above a message board intellecutally, and a half-step down when it comes to community.  The top 10 blogs are mostly ranked where they are because of those cliques and the amount of points they generate due to people having long conversations in threads.  

That is to say....i think you missed the point completely

on Apr 28, 2004
I beg to differ...

Some of those people are in the top 10 for that very reason... you are right, but I would like to think I am not one of them... I dont have many articles that have over 10 replies...

I really liked your comment idea though... 5 points, then 4..etc...

Yeah - my comment was a blanket statement in relation to a few things going on, sorry for not sticking to this particular topic...

BAM!!!
on Apr 28, 2004
I got an e-mail from Brad today. I won't post the body of it, but in essense, it said "you're on thin ice due to your recent second account...." and later continued by saying "I also don't appreciate [reference to a recent time that I said a comment of his seemed a little like teenage angst.]" I suppose I should be honored by the fact that he sent me a personal e-mail, seeing as the admins are not all that attentive of e-mails and such things (for good reason of course)- but actually, I was a little "put out."

First of all, I hope, the "terms of use" I signed up with are not what they are today. When I read them, this was not a flashy, appealing site, it was a start-up site with a good idea. I scanned them (I try to read everything I agree to) but I don't remember I single word I read. Just the typical bunch of disclaimers, I imagine. So when I made a second site and he said "according to the terms of use, you can't do this," my initial response was "...oh." I prompty deleted every article on the entire site and delivered my apologies. I cooperated so quickly it shouldn't have even been an issue, which, as I recall, was not even remotely the case in the days of "deleted_" (oldtimers know who I'm talking about).

Why would I be on thin ice? I cooperated, there was no resistance, and no harm done. Insults happen with or without double sites, so that can hardly be used as a reason. I think I'm being made an "example" of. That is, I didn't really do anything worth "restricting posting privelages," but just in case somebody does, Brad wants them to know that it can be done.

And then he says, "So comments such as "lol Brad, that was worthy of a teenager:)" are unwelcome from someone who hasn't already lost their account simply because I'm being charitable. " I suppose that means that I can't criticize Brad anymore when he says something with more emotional bite than logical merit. If you want me to leave your immense ego alone, I'll do that, but do your arrogance a favor and at least be honest about it.

You keep touting the "you're not paying" line. As if with all your extensive experience you don't know that if a site has legal information, guidelines, and a professional format, people will think it's a professional site with all the expected surroundings. Things like... support. Which there is. Freedom of speech, within in reason... which there ...kind of... is... It's kind of like walking into a clothing store and complaining about a leaky roof, only to have the manager confront you and angrily state that the store has no obligation to provide shelter from the elements. But frankly, not only was that protection expected, it was beneficial to the business. I hope that analogy isn't too shaky...

In any case, what I'm saying is, don't antagonize the users. If you pick fights with people are neither trolls nor flamers, neither boggers nor haters, you're just causing yourself more trouble. I say, leave me alone. Let me pursue my blogs. And if you exile me for good for not humbly kissing your shoes because you "charitably" did not ban me from your site, then so be it.

~Buddha
on Apr 28, 2004
LOL...No Man is an Island.....although I tend to consider myself an Archipelago....
I have rarely ran across anyone who truely pisses me off via a reply or an article....thats not to say i have not come across any....if I do, I could always reply myself...isnt that what a blog is all bout ....give ones point of view and reply with a postive/negative reply depending on a persons thoughts bout that said article... as for the point system.....im indifferent towards it right now....i have yet to break the 1,000 mark yet.....but im still relatively new all things considered...(few months).....but I do agree that it was an interesting Article....time for me to ponder the points of the article for some time.....
on Apr 29, 2004

Dan, sorry but you are a clear case of someone we don't want on this site.

1) You created a fake user.  You used this fake user to attack other members of the site.

2) You have seemingly gone out of your way to antagonize me.

3) When confronted, you offer no apologies, no regrets. You apparently see your behavior as acceptable. It is not. I would welcome those who feel as you do to leave.

on Apr 29, 2004

I should also add that I think you are wholly dishonest. You created a second user claiming NOT to be you. You didn't just create a duplicate blog site. You created a fake alias claiming to be someone else so that you could savage other people without having your other alias deal with the fall out. You know this. I think you have some ethical issues you need to work through.

I'll reconsider your case in a few days.

on Apr 29, 2004
Dan, you have a lot to learn my friend and it sounds like you will be learning it elsewhere. I am a forgiving person but I can honestly say, if it were my call after that last comment, you would be gone. I don't see how it is too much to ask that the admin of a free site at least be shown a bit of respect. If you are more grief than you are worth, you go away.
on Apr 29, 2004
Interesting article and responses so far. I can sort of understand Brad and other admins feelings on the issue. We as users have absolutely nothing to lose here. Let's face it, do I really care what anyone here thinks of me and whether they respect me? No, of course not. This is the internet, where there are endless possibilities of expression. Prior to this was newsgroups where people would threaten to *plonk* you which I always laughed about. Earlier, there were BBS's, now those you tended to be careful about because your account could be yanked. Bottom line, we all are unknown here and have nothing to lose.

Brad is a "public" figure. He owns and runs a software company and has written articles in various places (not all his own). He puts himself out here because of his desire or need to be heard and also, I think, to expose Stardock and promote the good will of the company. As a result of this, Brad does have something to lose. Nothing big but certainly more than any of us, we can only lose our "reputation" on JoeUser, big deal.

How Brad and the admins deal with criticisms and rouge users is like walking on its' own thin ice. Anyone remember other public developers, say Derrick Smart? Arguably, Derrick is a fine example what happens when one alienates what ultimately is his client base. I am sure Brad has received many "you suck, I am no longer buying any of your products" emails. That will always happen. Unless Brad makes a complete ass of himself I doubt we will see any type of mass exodus or Stardock CD burnings.

Does this mean that Brad and Co should pander to everyone on JoeUser? No, and they clearly do not. There are issues that I disagree with and there are instances that I think a admin has made a fool of themselves or showed their dark side. Does if affect me as customer? No, as I have seen nothing severe. But for many it would. And there lies the risk. So Brad and company has to balance responding to negativity with negativity and not alienating everyone.

At the end of the day, the admins are just human. They may respond harshly or unfairly to something they dislike. We as users, have other choices for blog forums such as these. As it has been pointed out repeatedly this is a free service. If you disagree with the way it is ran you have other choices. So far, I fail to see any significant reason for criticism of the site or its' admins.

Just my opinion.
on Apr 29, 2004
Brad's right, Dan. You haven't offered any apologies, and it seems to me that you've been trying to lay the blame at anyone else's feet but your own. I think that you've been trying to justify your underhandedness.

You showed your age on this one.
on Apr 29, 2004

Brad, this is very well put.  I was just thinking last night, "Oh, yeah!  *Now* I remember what the beginning of WinCustomize was like!" 

And, as a side note, thank you for caring enough to actually keep this place a friendly place versus just closing its doors.

I would also like people to know that there are more Admins than just Brad.  Many people spend their time working on, testing, and monitoring this site. Brad is the "Uber Admin" no hands down, but this site could not be run by just one person.  However, if you go out of your way to insult the Uber Admin, you insult all the Admins.  Nobody needs that.

on Apr 29, 2004
So that's my little rant for the evening.


It sounds rather even handed to me. From all I've seen, you do an excellent job and at times put up with more "abuse" than you would need to. For a ranting person, I think you are pretty patient and at times VERY parental (in a good way).

It's curious that you wrote this article today because at some point this morning I was thinking, "why is this site free? I assume Brad pays for it, and I doubt it benefits him a whole lot" Perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, It clearly has value to many who use it, thanks for providing the service.

Tractorman
on Apr 29, 2004
Maybe i am a cynic but Tractormansavestheday is Dan's father, is this praise of Brad Wardell genuine in light of Dan's recent behaviour?
on Apr 29, 2004
"It's not about meanness or niceness. It's about respect for one another. Respect others and you will find yourself receiving in return. Some of the best users on this site have very different philosphies than I do but they are intelligent and respectul of others and get it in return."

I think this is one of the best explainations I've heard. It all comes down to respect. My heart goes out to Dan for his lack of understanding -- pain comes from lack of wisdom. I wish I could apologize for him, Brad, and help him grow by doing it. "Whoever keeps the law is a discerning son," Prov. 28:7.

Brad, thanks for your work to make this a great site. In no way do I think encouragement or gratitude equals "kissing someone's shoes." I think it's just a good practice for us all to learn -- we can't do it until we drop some pride. Dan, from someone who cares about you as a brother in Christ, "pride comes before the fall," and don't harden your heart. As Benedick said, "Examine your conscience; and so I leave you." (Shakespeare, Much Ado About Nothing)
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