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How some personal responsibility and common sense can keep you out of poverty
Published on November 21, 2003 By Draginol In Politics

Luvscure1 wrote an article that was very articulate even though I totally disagreed with it (which is why I featured it -- I wonder if Luvscure1 has anything to do with my favorite musical group, "The Cure" but that's a different subject).

Amount of sympathy I have for people on welfare: 0.

There are only two things you have to do in life to stay off of welfare statistically:

  1. Finish high school.
  2. Don't have any children until age 25.

While it won't guarantee you never being poor, it makes it exceptionally unlikely that you will be poor. That's it. In Luvscure's article she talks about her friend with 2 children who is just not able to make end's meet on welfare. She's going to school and her solution, I suspect, would be for welfare to be high enough such that she could afford to live decently (above poverty) with child care provided for so that she could go to school and get a degree to make a better life for her and her two children.

Sure sounds reasonable doesn't it? I mean, just a little helping hand, just a little compassion and someone would be able to turn their life around. How can you object to that? What kind of heartless bastard would want a woman and her two small children to live near poverty?

Of course, that's a strawman argument. No decent person wants anyone to live in poverty. What people want are for people to show some personal responsibility.  I'm not the brightest bulb out there, and having grown up quite poor myself, I know the type of lifestyle her friend is currently experiencing.  But even when I was a teen I had enough sense to know that a) having children too young was a ticket to the poor house.

The other problem with most welfare people I've met over the years is that they are amazingly UNresourceful. In Luvscure's article, she mentions her friend's kids have holes in their shoes. What? Purple heart and tons of other charities will gladly provide children with free shoes. Me suspects that that the woman is insisting on purchasing new shoes at the store. Sorry but that ain't the way to go about it. In fact, many things that Luvscure brings up just highlights the experiences I've had with welfare people - her friend also is having a hard time living in the city. Duh. How about moving OUT of the city where you can get low income housing that's much less expensive.  How about taking advantage of discount clothing places (Which is what my mother, a beacon of resourcefulness, did when we were poor).  What about taking advantage of bulk food services. Welfare can pay the bills if one is reasonably resourceful.

But that aside, the best way to get out of welfare is not to end up in a situation where you're in it in the first place.  Show me a welfare mother and I'll show you someone with at least 2 small children. Do these people not know where babies come from? First time around, okay. But as my mother demonstrated, you can successfully stay off of welfare if you only have 1 child. My mom didn't have the  luxury to go back to school and get a degree. So she worked her rear end off to make ends meet. She now owns a beautiful home that she owns (i.e. it's paid for) and has a pretty good standard of living all through common sense budgeting and wise planning over time.

But... have two children and things get a lot tougher. Expenses grow dramatically on that second child. But there's little excuse for it. How are we supposed to feel sorry for people who lack the common sense to avoid having two children they can't afford? How is it society's responsibility to subsidize immensely unwise people? 

I'll repeat it because it bears repeating: Finish high school AND don't have any children until you're at least 25 (or financially stable) and you will almost certainly not find yourself in poverty or on welfare.

The problem isn't the welfare system. The problem is people expecting the government to be mommy and daddy. If you're not grown up enough to be able to take care of yourself, you're not grown up enough to have children.

 


Comments
on Nov 22, 2003
"If you're not grown up enough to be able to take care of yourself, you're not grown up enough to have children."

Which is why I would support a law that required birth control at least until the age of 18 (21 would be better).
on Nov 22, 2003
Abe, not that I would mind such a law but it is quite obvious it would never, ever fly in America. I don't even kow how many religions that would offend. I do know about Catholics though. Monty Python, every sperm is sacred, ring a bell? Sure a law preventing one from having sex before they were of age could get by but good luck enforcing it.
on Nov 22, 2003
If I were emperor Abe would get his wish.
on Nov 22, 2003
Grrrrr.....I'm dying to comment on this based on personal experience but I just don't feel like debating today.
on Nov 23, 2003
"Abe, not that I would mind such a law but it is quite obvious it would never, ever fly in America."

It certainly wouldn't fly now, but some time in the future? Who knows. If the world population keeps increasing like it has been, something is going to have to be done at some point.
on Nov 23, 2003
"The other problem with most welfare people I've met over the years is that they are amazingly UNresourceful."

That is *exactly* it, but what to do about it? I'm not sure there is anything that can be done. It seems that you either are born with the ability to "rise above" or you are not. If people simply don't have the mental ability to improve their own lives then the best we can do is make sure that they don't breed. Sounds harsh, but so is trying to provide for a child when you don't have the means to do so. That child certainly doesn't want to be born into such circumstances. I was born to a poor disfunctional single woman. At a very young age I became convinced that I was actually an alien whose parents had accidentaly lost him on Earth while on a picnic.

Most people seem to think that breeding is an inalienable right, but that has to change in order to improve the quality of our society as well as keeping population under control.

If I were emperor I would enact the following laws.

1. No kids until the age of 22 (for both parents).
2. Must pass a psych test to show that you are basically "OK".
3. Must be able to prove you can support your kid(s) financially.
4. Must pass an extensive course on child rearing.
on Nov 23, 2003
Abe, what you propose sounds very similar to the "solution" to the problem that was discussed in the movie Demolition Man. You're right though, regardless of the proposed solution(s). Our population is growing at an incredible rate and eventually something will have to be done to control it. Do people not realize that while our population can grow and grow, the size of our planet doesn't? Or that the more people there are to take care of the less resources there will be to take care of them with?

It seems we got off topic a little, from welfare to population control. Welfare isn't about population, it's about take accountability for one's situation in life and doing something to make it better.

I can say that becuase I've lived it. When I was ten years old my father died and that left my mother with me, two other children, a house and bills. She'd been a stay-at-home mom all the 22 years she'd been married to my father, which meant she had no income. She could have turned to welfare and I wouldn't have thought any less of her for doing so, so long as she used it as a temporary tool. Which, in my opinion, is what it's supposed to be, not a solution but a tool. She didn't do that though. She sold the house and one of the cars. She then got a job taking care of an elderly man that included moving into his home and receiving a monthly salary. So, I guess she did the more "resourceful" thing. In the end though, it didn't really matter which method she chose as long as she did what she had to do to take care of her children. She could have used welfare to hold us over until she found work, but she found another way. Not everyone in a bad situation has other "options" available right away.

While we hate the fact that a lot of people abuse the welfare system we must not lose sight of the fact that it does have a purpose and it does help a lot of people who truly need it. The people who need it need to not lose sight of the fact that welfare is meant as a tool to hold you over until you can get back on your feet. I guess I'm on the fence on this one...
on Nov 23, 2003
Don't get me wrong, I am not against welfare at all. However, I think it would be much better if more was done to insure that people would never have to go on welfare to begin with. Not being allowed to have a child until you are 21 would be a step in the right direction. If nothing else, at 21 you are a bit wiser than at 18, 16 etc.
on Nov 23, 2003
Draginol, as I've stated in the comments section of my blog, a high school diploma isn't the cure all to keep people from getting poorer. I'm sorry, it isn't. I know to many people with college degrees that are worthless. I know to many people without kids, who have B.A.'s and are still poor. I also know a lot of people who didn't have kids until their early 30's, and guess what, they're still poor. Abe cubbage, I also believe that people should be forced to take birth control until they are mentally, and financially able to take care of children. Unfortunately, that would never happen. I believe in freedom of choice. That is why I support abortion, no matter what my personal views are. We can't make choices for people. If we try to prevent people from making mistake, it would inhibit their learning, and growing process. We can't act as the moral conscience for the world, because my ideas of what's moral, and your ideas of what's moral may differ from the next man, or woman. So therefore, to use Draginol's words, us "smart people" have to act as a safety net for the "dumb people". That's the way it works, we can't sit on our high horses because we were blessed with a abundant amount of commonsense, and let the less fortunate starve. Oh, and until you men get a ureters, stop trying to control what us women do with ours. To control the population, lets make men get vasectomies. Men are always trying to say what women should and shouldn't do. I think men are jealous because they don't have their own uterus to control. That's my 2 cents on the subject.
on Nov 23, 2003
And Luvscure, as I keep responding, a highschool diploma ALONE is not enough. It takes TWO things: high school diploma and no children until age 25.

And, btw, who are these people who have BA's and are still "poor". How do you define "Poor"?

The options aren't welfare or stavation. There are other options such as providing food to the poor intead of money.

Vasectomies for men? Maybe on planet crazy that might make sense but here on Earth that makes no sense at all. First off, it only takes ONE man to impregnate many women. So if you want to logically argue that the cure for over population is sterilization of one of the sexes then I'm afraid that women would be the ones who would logically make sense to sterilize. However, I don't think that's necesasary.

Here's my proposal: To receive welfare you have to accept birth control. They have birth control now that comes in the form of a patch. They could require that in order to receive welfare. As soon ast hey get off welfare, they can get the patch removed.

I don't mind helping stupid people recover from a mistake. I do mind ENABLING stupid people to exploit the system.
on Nov 24, 2003
Some of the comments are a bit harsh, but I have to admit that I agree in principle to the concept. Before I comment though let me point out that I am a practicing catholic and as such my comments are guided by my upbringing and my personal sense of what's right.

a) I believe all children and young adults should be on birth control until they reach the age where they can support a child in an environment above the poverty line. Whether this is when they get married, when their parents agree to support the costs or when their housemates agree to help doesn't matter. There are many acceptable ways for children to grow up and the important thing should be to enable this, not set tough conditions.

Both sexes should be controlled. Men should be unable to father a kid until that kid can be in a supportive environment.

c) Parental responsibility. BOTH parents have to make sacrifices to raise their kid, and both parents should have a legal responsibility until the kid reaches adulthood. Child rearing classes sound like a good idea. Failure in this responsibility should immediately involve return to birth control so that no future unsupported kids are born. Continuing failure should lead to the possibility (after every other avenue is exhausted) of the child being removed to state care until such time as the parents regain their responsibility.

d) Change in fortunes of the parents should NOT be punished. If a child is born to parents and then they get made redundant, social welfare should kick in. Special support should be given to help these parents cope and return them to the lifestyle they had before the circumstances. Parents however must realise that sacrifices may need to be made to make ends meet.

e) accidental pregnancies. The mother needs to find a stable environment to raise her child in. The state should provide such oppertunities. Communities where young mothers can live together and support each other should become more common. I disagree with abortion and especially any form of forced abortion.

I think the important point is not removing social welfare but making parents responsibile and giving them alternatives. Some form of general birth control would greatly reduce the problem.

And before people talk about the freedom of choice, think of this. At the moment I have the right to have 1 billion babies and have the state pay social welfare for them. Why should I have that right? Is it the right to have 1 billion babies or the right to have others pay for them that is the problem?

Paul.
on Nov 24, 2003
"...that would never happen." How many times has that statement been uttered throughout history?

"We can't make choices for people." Of course we can. Society is all about saying what you can and can't do.

"If we try to prevent people from making mistake, it would inhibit their learning, and growing process." Sure, but some mistakes just shouldn't be allowed to begin with; eg murder, stealing etcetera.

"We can't act as the moral conscience for the world..." Morality has nothing to do with it.

"...we can't sit on our high horses because we were blessed with a abundant amount of commonsense, and let the less fortunate starve." Has anyone here suggested that we let people starve?

"To control the population, lets make men get vasectomies." Good luck with that.
on Nov 25, 2003
Moral has everything to do with it. We can't stop people, no matter how much we try from doing what they really want to do, plain and simple.
on Nov 26, 2003
Please explain Luvscure1.