Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Problems with ethanol - the fraud of alternative fuels
Published on April 26, 2007 By Draginol In Politics

In the past year or so we've seen more and more people jump onto the Ethanol bandwagon.  After learning more about it (and it doesn't take very long to do some basic research) I've concluded that Ethanol advocates are idiots.  Let me be very clear: If you think Ethanol is a serious alternative fuel you either haven't researched it at all or you are too dumb to be expressing opinions.

It's actually difficult to find a "plus" to Ethanol.  I guess, in theory, it would reduce dependence on foreign oil. Which seems ironic that anyone would tolerate the negatives to deal a minor blow to middle east oil producers even as they shop at Walmart (which imports vast amounts of its "stuff" from China) on their way to a "Get our troops out of there" protest rally.

So what's wrong with Ethanol? Let's count the ways:

1) It's not carbon-neutral. Not by a long shot.  Burning a bio fuel in itself is "carbon-neutral" but producing the bio fuel in the first place (whether it be corn or switch grass) and then harvesting it and then turning it into fuel is hardly carbon-neutral.

2) It takes more than 1 gallon of fresh water to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol. Think about that for a moment.  Environmentalists talk a great deal about conserving water. But producing Ethanol is one of the worst things you can do in that area.  When someone runs their shower for a long time, at least that water is (ahem) recycled if you're living in a city.  But the fresh water used for farming and producing ethanol is not coming back to the water table or the lake or stream it came from any time soon.

3) It pollutes the air. In our rush to worry about CO2 (better known as the stuff that plants breath) people seem to forget about good old fashioned real pollution

But let's put away the extra pollution in Ethanol itself, let's consider the production of it which involves using massive amounts of nitrogen for fertizing it and the effect of that.  Or how about all the other things involved in raising crops.  I'm no farmer but one doesn't need to look hard to find out that the "agribusiness" is a pretty environmentally intrusive thing.  It's one thing if it's being done for food, but as an alternative to gasoline?

4) It wouldn't even come close to solving our problems. Even if we turned nearly all the ariable farm in the United States to switch grass or corn production and we switched to using corn stalks or other more efficient methods of getting bio-fuels, we still wouldn't have enough for even today's gasoline needs. 

5) Ethanol actually requires more energy to produce than it provides.  Let me be clear on this because Ethanol advocates try to side-step this by saying that all energy sources are like this.  But the difference is that Ethanol already uses more energy in the sense that it takes more gas, coal, ethanol, whatever fuels you want to use to produce ethanol than the produced ethanol will provide back.

It's a fraud.  Really wanting something to be true really badly doesn't make it true. One study showed that a gallon of Ethanol has 76k BTUs but requires 116k BTUs to produce -- before you even start transporting the stuff! In other words, it's not a close call on that point.

It's like the Simpsons episode where Homer goes into the Grease business and Bart says "That bacon you just used to produce that grease that made 50 cents cost $5." and Homer says "That's your mother's money" and Bart says "But her money comes from you." and Homer says "And my money comes from grease."

THAT's the kind of reasoning an Ethanol advocate has to use. Homer Simpson logic.

6) Ethanol has less energy in the final fuel. That means you get fewer miles per gallon on your car which means more trips to the gas station and more overall overhead.

7) Ethanol production would (obviously) raise food prices.  The government subsidizes Ethanol production. So farmers produce it instead of other grops (you know, food). Food prices go up. There have already been food riots on this.  To dumb this down so that ethanol advocates can understand: We are paying taxes so that we can pay more money for our food.

8) How do you transport Ethanol? Do advocates realize that Ethanol is a type of alcohol? (the name implies it, no?).  That means you can't use pipelines like we do for gasoline. What happens to alcohol when you mix it with water? What happens to piping if you run alcohol through it for awhile? The wikipedia page for Ethanol talks about this. But it's easy to forget that its advocates apparently don't like reading..or math.   So even if we were willing to lay waste to the land necessary to produce this stuff, how do you transport it around? By truck or train. And what powers those? Grease?

None of these facts are hard to find out. They're not part of some conspiracy by the evil oil companies.  Half of it is common sense.  Fossil Fuels, whether we like them or not, are about the closest thing we have to Energon cubes we got.

We need to get away from fossil fuels but we need to do it intelligently. Ethanol is just such a patently stupid idea on so many levels that I can't believe no one has bothered to expose it yet and discredit it once and for all.

Personally, I think plug-in hybrids are a good start. Sure, our power comes from fossil fuels but it's lot easier (and cheaper) to control what power plants emit than cars. Moreover, the US is the OPEC of coal which is what most of our power plants produce.  Better yet, use nuclear power and send the waste over to Iraq (just kidding) (not kidding, secret evil plan in progress) .

Most of our fossil fuel use and CO2 emissions come from vehicles. Give me a car that could even go 20 miles per day on electric and I'd be off of gasoline.  The answer isn't to find some new magical carbon fuel, the answer is to reduce how much our cars use IMO.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Apr 27, 2007
We (the US) for the most part can't grow sugar.


i'm aware of that miler, but thanks for the clear point. what i was saying is that our politicians are latching on to corn, which is probably the most widely grown crop we have, hopin for a nice quick and neat solution to our energy problems. of course, it would be real good for them to be able to deliver an energy solution and provide positive economic benefits for their districts in doing so. whereas i know that we can't go to sugar cane like in brazil, we should be thinkin bout crops that might not be widely grown now, but would do better than corn does. i see guy suggested sugar beets...i don't know much about that specifically, but in that general vein.

of course, that presents the problem of trying to convince farmers to crow a crop for which there is no current market. which, i'm sure, is a tough sell. of course, there is a crop i don't think many farmers would mind "trying out"...
WWW Link
on Apr 27, 2007

ome day, ethanol, or something like it, might be a great fuel, but it isn't ready yet. It needs a LOT more research before it, or something similar, will be ready for use.

Ethanol will never be a good alternative. Ever. It's flawed to its core.

Solar panels have promise IF combined with plug-in hybrids.

on Apr 27, 2007

1) I consider this a strawman's argument. The fuel in itself IS carbon-neutral. I doubt there is anything in the production cycle which requires additional CO2 output. Besides, other fuels have the similar additonal production and distribution polution, so it doesn't worsen the situation.

So...you've never been to a farm you mean.  Do you know what's involved in making corn and then distilling it and then transporting it?


2) So you produce in neightbourhoods where water is not a problem, or find some variants which can be cultivated on sea. You can't grow the crops everywhere, but that is hardly an argument against ethanol in itself. It just limits it usability somewhat and will heighten the price.

Well heck, let's use that logic to its final conclusion - let's just live in places where the results of pollution (or if you believe in human made global warming) won't be a big deal.  What magical land did you have in mind for producing Ethanol then? The places I was referring to involve places where we grow things where the water is largely coming from the water table or a nearby lake or river.



3) So do several variants of fossil gasolines. True, you have to look careful at this, but that article you found presented a worst case scenario. Given enough research I doubt the health risks will be severe.

Compared to ethanol, gasoline is a "green" fuel when it comes to pollution.  If we switched purely to ethanol, a lot more people would die from air pollution.


4) now, this is what I call a valid point.

It's the elephant in the room. It's not even a viable fuel because we can't even remotely produce enough of it.


5) not really convinced on this point as the problem with energy is often the conversion from one type into another, and the transport. I don't care if ethanol would cost a massive amount of energy, if that is free energy. So, if you are using gas-based energy centrales to produce ethanol, you are right, but if you are using hydro-power or solar energy, you are not. So the Ethanal-advocates are right in their defense. (Of course there is also the issue that the energy used to produce ethanol could be used for something more useful, like hybrid-cars , hence my reference to 'free' energy).

But the energy ISN'T free.  That's like saying "Well if the energy is magical".  Let's say we moved to a purely Ethanol based economy. Everything is Ethanol. If it takes MORE than 1 gallon of Ethanol to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol what is the result going to be? 



6) So basically your point here is that you will need a bigger tank in your car?! Hardly an argument. Around here we have cars running on gaz, imagine the fuel tanks you'll need for that It only means that ethanol has some drawbacks, not that it is not a valid alternative.

My point is that we would still end up putting MORE stuff in the air. You'd need a bigger tank which adds weight and uses resources. It means you get even fewer miles per gallon.  To me, a "green" fuel is one that is..well green. As in, doesn't pollute as much as what it is supposed to replace.


7) basically the same argument as 2. You need to grow it. Which is great if you're producing far more food than needed, and a bit of a problem if you don't.

The difference here is the unintended consequences. My problem with so many environmentalists is that they're so into their own narcisism that they can't be bothered to THINK.  They talk about wanting to help starving people in Africa and elsewhere even as they advocate policies that would make it worse.  It's the whole "But we had good intentions" nonsense.


8) Don't confuse the end product ethanol with the raw oil which is going through the pipelines. Don't know about the US, but around here the gazoline I put in my car is not going through pipes, it is being distributed by cars, trains and boats. And my guess is you transport the ethanol the same way.

No, there's a big difference here.  I can assure you they are not transporting gasoline from the refinery to your local gas station in a truck or train. It's by pipe.  But that's exactly what would happen with ethanol.


If you just look on the internet for arguments against something, you will find them, no doubt. And yes, you are right if you say that right now Ethanol is not a valid alternative yet. And yes, you are right if you claim that ethanol is no silveren bullet. It has issues. But it is a renewable fuel source, thait is what makes it green! And as oil definitely is not a renewable fuel source. Furthermore you can transfer to it gradually with relatively small investments, which makes it so attractive.

.  So as long as we can keep doing it it's green? That's all it takes? Wow.   None of the facts I presented were really disputed by you. You just don't  seem to like me pointing them out. 



So ethanol is definately green, but whether it is also feasible, I don't know.

To me, things that create more pollution than something termed non-green is not green in my book.  Garbage incineration is "renewable" too.  Is that a "green" technology too?

 Most of your points just require more environment friendly production methods and more technological research into possible solutions. I know that technological research sounds a bit cheap, but if you look at the polution of a car nowadays compared to the polution of a car thirty years ago, there is a huge improvement. Similarly a lot of the arguments against ethanol just boil down to that its production and use is not mature enough yet. Given enough incentives (like government regulations) those issues will be tackled.

The only issue I'm really concerned about is the farming part. We might indeed push people into starvation because the land is used for ethanol instead of food. My guess is we can't miss that much fertile land for ethanol, but that is just a hunch.

So believe it or not, I agree with your end conclusion that we need to get away from fosil fuels intelligently and that hybrid cars might very well be a better solution. I just don't agree with you that Ethanol advocates are just idiots (although some of them undoubtfully are ).

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I believe Ethanol advocates are idiots in the same way that I think people who follow the Underpants gnomes philosophy on business are idiots.

A lot of the issues with Ethanol are not subject to technological innovation.  If it takes 2 gallons of Ethanol to make 1 gallon of ethanol you really don't need to go much further than that.  Or if the physical land area available for agriculture is less than is needed to produce it then there's not much more to discuss.  

The arguments for Ethanol always go "Ethanol is good" <Insert magical technological innovation> "PROFIT!"  

on Apr 27, 2007

One other point about Brazil and its sugar cane.

So...where do people think that sugar cane is grown.  Do environmentalists really want to hold up Brazil as the beacon of enviro-friendly policies? (cue in rain forest deforestation discussion here)

on Apr 27, 2007
So...where do people think that sugar cane is grown. Do environmentalists really want to hold up Brazil as the beacon of enviro-friendly policies?


i wouldn't "hold them up" as a beacon of enviro-friendly policies per se, but i would give them credit for continuously trying to improve. have they found every answer as you demand? no, but i've seen them take problems that rise head on in this issue. again, are they perfect? no, but who is? is that the standard bar? perfection or nothing? since when does all innovation come all at once?

it's ridiculous to expect all the answers in advance here and just poo-poo anyone who doesn't have them neatly wrapped up. progress in this area will be incremental, regardless of which paths we choose to explore. it took the brazillians 20 years or so to get to where they are now. they've improved as they went along. they still have more to do...so what?

we've been looking at alternatives seriously for what, about 3 weeks now? i know that's an exaggeration but the fact is we've hardly begun to actually begin doing anything in this area with any serious amount of resource behind it. i agree that corn probably isn't it, but the tact of just poo pooing anything that isn't neatly wrapped up with no problems whatsoever is setting the bar a bit high, don't ya think?

the brazillians have developed an alternative that reduces pollution vs gasoline without any other effort necessary. they've ran into some enviromental issues, like the burning of crops, which they have banned. and they have more issues to tackle. but they have become energy independent. they don't answer to opec or chavez like we do. i envy that. with all of our resources, we should be able to what they have done better, faster and cheaper someday.

all the answers today? no. but i don't share your standard to reject anything that doesn't meet that in this area here, today. i can deal with 2 steps forward and 1 back here. and i don't think, in the end, the enviromental nazi's will let anyone get away with "killing the planet" and if we continue to work towards energy independence, the enviromentalists will keep the profiteers honest in the long term.

maybe i'm not the poster boy for enviromentalism, but that's the way i see it off the cuff here.
on Apr 27, 2007
Yes, but the reason they call it "carbon-neutral" is because the CO2 that is released was gathered from the air in the first place, and so the net CO2 emissions are near zero.


and where did the co2 in coal and oil come from mars
on Apr 27, 2007
why is it that the only fuel alterinative we are talking about is replacing one co2 product with another

there is another fuel alterinative it is hydrogen and the by product is water not co2

i will tell you why becouse the ethonal can be dispensed with our current infastructer and the hydrogen would require a complete replacement

as for nuke power the only problem with nuke power is the waste

well we have a way to get rid of the waste it is as simple as recycling it

if you recycle it you can use the same material for 20 years and at the end of the 20 years you end up with a handful of inert dirt ie no radiation

but carter is his wisdom made it illegal to recycle the waste

and clinton in his wisdom made it illegal for a coal mine in southern utah

the importance of that coal is it is what they call soft coal and soft coal doesn't pollute when it is burnt

and there are only two sources of it on the planet southern utah and indonisia

and just before or just after clinton shut down that coal mine indonisia donated 100,000 to his reelectio campaign
on Apr 27, 2007
and where did the co2 in coal and oil come from mars


huh?

aside from that... i gotta say,,,and everyone knows this might cause 4 horsemen to appear on the horizon,,,but i agree with whip on the whole. i don't know if i go as far as "at any cost" as i think if we found people combustion to be a really good fuel (and renewable) i'm not gonna endorse a "soylent green" type fuel initiative.

and i have always held that carlin quote dear as well...i just don't want that bad cold to come and get us sneezed out, lol

credit where it is due,,,well said whip. i think our priorities are pretty much in line there, even if we get theree from slightly differrent places.(cue lightning and thunder crash)
on Apr 27, 2007

i wouldn't "hold them up" as a beacon of enviro-friendly policies per se, but i would give them credit for continuously trying to improve. have they found every answer as you demand? no, but i've seen them take problems that rise head on in this issue. again, are they perfect? no, but who is? is that the standard bar? perfection or nothing? since when does all innovation come all at once?

Huge chunks of the Amazon rain forest are being mowed down which I think is a huge environmental disaster. It's not a matter of perfection, it's a matter that Brazil is possibly the very worst environmentalist country in the world IMO in terms of catastrophic effect on the environment.

We worry about ANWR in our debates which is nothing compared to how much of the amazon rain forest the Brazilians have and continue to wipe out.

I agree that perfect is the enemy of good. But Brazil is a lot closer to the worst case scenario for environmentalism than it is to being perfect. I'd say the Chinese are more enviromentaly conscious than the Brazilians have been.

on Apr 27, 2007

I want cheap fuel, and I'd love to see it in my lifetime. If I can't have cheap, I'll settle for RENEWABLE. The amount of coal and oil in the earth is finite, it WILL be gone someday. We need to find a renewable resource, and the cost in dollars and pollution won't mean a damned thing once all the coal and oil is gone.

Sure. But ethanol's problems are much worse than just being dirtier.  They cost more. And they won't work because we can't produce enough corn, soy, sugar gain, switch grass, whatever to replace the fuel we use and even if we could, it still wouldn't work because it requires more fuel to produce ethanol than you get out of it which is the ultimate show stopper.

Nuclear power with plug-in hybrids would solve the problem in the near term if we really wanted to. There are lots of alternative energy sources with some promise.  Ethanol just doesn't happen to be one of them.

on Apr 27, 2007

there is another fuel alterinative it is hydrogen and the by product is water not co2

Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's energy storage. It takes a lot of energy to store energy in hydrogen. There are also a lot of other technological issues that have to be overcome to use it. 

It's the power source that we really need to deal with.  I wish people weren't so freaked out about nuclear power. You combine nuclear power and hydrogen "fuels" and a lot of our problems go away.

 

on Apr 27, 2007
wish people weren't so freaked out about nuclear power.


yep,,,i think jackson browne and company evidently went a bit too far in their "no nukes" hysteria in the 70's where people are still shell shocked, especially those of us who remember 3 mile island and don't realize it was almost 30 years ago and not to beat a dead horse, but innovations and technologies have happened since then in the areas of nuclear safety. and if we get on that horse again, with what we know now vs. then, i think you could be spot on about the nuke & hydrogen combo.
on Apr 27, 2007
and where did the co2 in coal and oil come from mars


huh?


coal and oil are dead plants and animals now i ask again where did the carbin that is in them come from mars since you imply that it didn't come from the air
on Apr 27, 2007
Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's energy storage. It takes a lot of energy to store energy in hydrogen. There are also a lot of other technological issues that have to be overcome to use it.


there is a company in salt lake that is ready to produce hydregen cars the only problem is infrastructure
on Apr 27, 2007
especially those of us who remember 3 mile island and don't realize it was almost 30 years ago and not to beat a dead horse, but innovations and technologies have happened since then in the areas of nuclear safety.


the testing facility in idaho came up with a way to shut down a nuke plant in case of a melt down with out any interference from man or machine

they tested it and it worked the only problem is the day they tested it chernobyl melted down so guess who got the press's attention

they are the ones who found out about the recycling of nuclear waste

and they were trying to make sure the fuel couldn't be used for weapons

when clinton shut them down to save welfare

you know welfare that ended one month later
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