Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Problems with ethanol - the fraud of alternative fuels
Published on April 26, 2007 By Draginol In Politics

In the past year or so we've seen more and more people jump onto the Ethanol bandwagon.  After learning more about it (and it doesn't take very long to do some basic research) I've concluded that Ethanol advocates are idiots.  Let me be very clear: If you think Ethanol is a serious alternative fuel you either haven't researched it at all or you are too dumb to be expressing opinions.

It's actually difficult to find a "plus" to Ethanol.  I guess, in theory, it would reduce dependence on foreign oil. Which seems ironic that anyone would tolerate the negatives to deal a minor blow to middle east oil producers even as they shop at Walmart (which imports vast amounts of its "stuff" from China) on their way to a "Get our troops out of there" protest rally.

So what's wrong with Ethanol? Let's count the ways:

1) It's not carbon-neutral. Not by a long shot.  Burning a bio fuel in itself is "carbon-neutral" but producing the bio fuel in the first place (whether it be corn or switch grass) and then harvesting it and then turning it into fuel is hardly carbon-neutral.

2) It takes more than 1 gallon of fresh water to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol. Think about that for a moment.  Environmentalists talk a great deal about conserving water. But producing Ethanol is one of the worst things you can do in that area.  When someone runs their shower for a long time, at least that water is (ahem) recycled if you're living in a city.  But the fresh water used for farming and producing ethanol is not coming back to the water table or the lake or stream it came from any time soon.

3) It pollutes the air. In our rush to worry about CO2 (better known as the stuff that plants breath) people seem to forget about good old fashioned real pollution

But let's put away the extra pollution in Ethanol itself, let's consider the production of it which involves using massive amounts of nitrogen for fertizing it and the effect of that.  Or how about all the other things involved in raising crops.  I'm no farmer but one doesn't need to look hard to find out that the "agribusiness" is a pretty environmentally intrusive thing.  It's one thing if it's being done for food, but as an alternative to gasoline?

4) It wouldn't even come close to solving our problems. Even if we turned nearly all the ariable farm in the United States to switch grass or corn production and we switched to using corn stalks or other more efficient methods of getting bio-fuels, we still wouldn't have enough for even today's gasoline needs. 

5) Ethanol actually requires more energy to produce than it provides.  Let me be clear on this because Ethanol advocates try to side-step this by saying that all energy sources are like this.  But the difference is that Ethanol already uses more energy in the sense that it takes more gas, coal, ethanol, whatever fuels you want to use to produce ethanol than the produced ethanol will provide back.

It's a fraud.  Really wanting something to be true really badly doesn't make it true. One study showed that a gallon of Ethanol has 76k BTUs but requires 116k BTUs to produce -- before you even start transporting the stuff! In other words, it's not a close call on that point.

It's like the Simpsons episode where Homer goes into the Grease business and Bart says "That bacon you just used to produce that grease that made 50 cents cost $5." and Homer says "That's your mother's money" and Bart says "But her money comes from you." and Homer says "And my money comes from grease."

THAT's the kind of reasoning an Ethanol advocate has to use. Homer Simpson logic.

6) Ethanol has less energy in the final fuel. That means you get fewer miles per gallon on your car which means more trips to the gas station and more overall overhead.

7) Ethanol production would (obviously) raise food prices.  The government subsidizes Ethanol production. So farmers produce it instead of other grops (you know, food). Food prices go up. There have already been food riots on this.  To dumb this down so that ethanol advocates can understand: We are paying taxes so that we can pay more money for our food.

8) How do you transport Ethanol? Do advocates realize that Ethanol is a type of alcohol? (the name implies it, no?).  That means you can't use pipelines like we do for gasoline. What happens to alcohol when you mix it with water? What happens to piping if you run alcohol through it for awhile? The wikipedia page for Ethanol talks about this. But it's easy to forget that its advocates apparently don't like reading..or math.   So even if we were willing to lay waste to the land necessary to produce this stuff, how do you transport it around? By truck or train. And what powers those? Grease?

None of these facts are hard to find out. They're not part of some conspiracy by the evil oil companies.  Half of it is common sense.  Fossil Fuels, whether we like them or not, are about the closest thing we have to Energon cubes we got.

We need to get away from fossil fuels but we need to do it intelligently. Ethanol is just such a patently stupid idea on so many levels that I can't believe no one has bothered to expose it yet and discredit it once and for all.

Personally, I think plug-in hybrids are a good start. Sure, our power comes from fossil fuels but it's lot easier (and cheaper) to control what power plants emit than cars. Moreover, the US is the OPEC of coal which is what most of our power plants produce.  Better yet, use nuclear power and send the waste over to Iraq (just kidding) (not kidding, secret evil plan in progress) .

Most of our fossil fuel use and CO2 emissions come from vehicles. Give me a car that could even go 20 miles per day on electric and I'd be off of gasoline.  The answer isn't to find some new magical carbon fuel, the answer is to reduce how much our cars use IMO.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Apr 28, 2007
"In America,
First you gets de sugar
Den you gets de powa
Den you gets de wimmen"
--H.J. Simpson
on Apr 28, 2007
You might be paying $2.50 a gallon at the pump, but if billions are being paid to farmers to grow it competitively, you'll be paying the extra, yourself at tax time


No, that's the beauty of it. Brad will. It's rob from the rich, GIVE to the poor, not the other way around.
on Apr 28, 2007
"Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's energy storage."

Bingo! And there are a few other dirty secrets about hydrogen that never seem to get brought up. First, hydrogen is the simplest atom that exists. What that means is that you can't fully contain hydrogen in a container -- it can seep through the atomic structure of any substance. You can, of course, slow the process by having thick walled heavy tanks -- more for the hydrogen to work through -- but this adds weight to the vehicle, therefore losing fuel efficiency. So you make thin walled tanks? Well, I hope you aren't a smoker.

Another dirty little secret about hydrogen fuel cells is that they use platinum in their structure, and with current technology, must be replaced within a couple of years. You think oil's getting scarce? Try becoming a platinum miner. To replace even just the US fleet would require nearly all of the platinum that is postulated to exist in the earth's crust -- for "batteries" that will be dead in a year or two. You trade "peak oil" for "peak platinum."

hydrogen is bollocks on a large scale -- so is ethanol. (see my above post about the space needed to grow corn or other sugar crops). Brad's brought up deforestation, which is a MASSIVELY valid point, not to mention every acre of fuel crops equals one acre not producing food. With falling water tables, overuse of fertilizer and pesticides/herbicides, can we really afford to lose any land to fuel crops? Or will we be like Brazil and chop it all down? The US has a pretty good forestry management system -- we've got more trees now than 100 years ago.

Excellent discussion, good on you all.

on Apr 28, 2007
and the other thing you aren't telling us is that the government pays more to farmers to not grow anything so that the price won't bottom out
on Apr 28, 2007

Well said Myrrander and Bakerstreet.

I haven't written much on Hydrogen fuel yet because I haven't done much research on it yet.  I waited on ethanol until I had finsihed learning enough until I felt comfortalbe writing about it.

But right now, 2007, Hydrogen doesn't look too promising to me.

It just seems crazy that we can't just go whole hog on plug-in hybrids.  We certainly have enough coal to last until we replace it with other things.

I also agree with Myrannder and others who feel that solar power is coming along nicely.  I bet within 20 years most new construction will have some solar panels on it. Sure, it won't eliminate our need for other energy sources but it could reduce our requirements considerably. 

I plan my next house to have some solar panels on it even though it probably won't do that much good (since we're in Michigan and it's a wooded area) but something is better than nothing.

But for nearly all of us, a plug-in hybrid vehicle makes the most sense. Adn I"m not talking about just little cars.  My Jag should be a hybrid. You don't really lose performance (heck, a well done electric motor could actually increaes the 0 to 60 performance). 

I think the car industry is making a big mistake thinking there aren't a sizeable chunk of the market that wouldn't pay a few grand premium for a plug-in hybrid. It's about convenience as well as knowing that we're having less overall impact on the environment.

on Apr 28, 2007
think the car industry is making a big mistake thinking there aren't a sizeable chunk of the market that wouldn't pay a few grand premium for a plug-in hybrid. It's about convenience as well as knowing that we're having less overall impact on the environment.



if we all plugged in we would have double or trible the number of power plants to produce all of that power

and there goes all that savings in pollution
on Apr 28, 2007
We're within a lifetime of making a lot of energy cheaply. One thing that has been theorized is using tidal forces to generate power. If you think about it the entire ocean rises and falls regularly due to the gravitational pull of the moon.

That isn't technically "free" energy in the normal application of the term, but if conservationists can be appeased it is a HUGE amount of potential if it can be harnessed. The impact on species along the effected shorlines, etc., will be a problem, in the same way that wind was once considered the go-to solution and now people are upset about it bothering the birds, etc.

I tend to think in the same way that Brad does, that the solution won't come at the macro level, but on the individual level. Creating things that use less power and supplementing with things like solar and wind, and then building on innovations in those things to eventually make bigger leaps. There's tons of stuff to be done, but it shouldn't be done as an all-or-nothing, ruin the world to save the world prospect.
on Apr 28, 2007
how long have we been working on gas powered cars and then how long have we been working on all of the others
on Apr 28, 2007
Lol, I don't think you are thinking about this. You are claiming that farmers won't need incentive to grow sugar beets, and then admitting that hundreds of millions of dollars have been paid... as incentive to grow sugar beets. Who cares where the money comes from? You should. You're paying for it. Anyway, there isn't so much incentive if you'd note the articles I linked. The government has hacking hard into those subsidies and the industry itself is beginning to rot on the vine.It's irritating to see people who ignorantly claim an industry is "lucrative" when in fact the industry itself can't keep its head above water without subsidies. Is the airline industry "lucrative"? It's like saying being on government disability or welfare is lucrative. The government doesn't just conjure that money from thin air, it comes from you and me.In terms to how this relates to fuel, consider the fact that a large part of your cost in ethanol or other "farmed" fuels will be extracted from you behind your back. You might be paying $2.50 a gallon at the pump, but if billions are being paid to farmers to grow it competitively, you'll be paying the extra, yourself at tax time. That isn't an honest look at the benefits of these fuels, it's the same old agricultural pit we've made ourselves for decades.


Listen I agree with you! But the sugar beets are a lucrative crop for FARMERS (I never said the sugar beet industry is lucrative) at the moment!!!!! Sugar beet FARMERS in my area are very wealthy, I know one farmer that goes on African safari's nearly every year costing tens of thousands of dollars (taxpayers dollars!) These farmers are making millions from this crop and its the government (taxpayers) thats funding it, I'm not at all happy about it, I think its ridiculous that taxpayers are buying these guys new trucks, houses, vacations and so on. As I type this I'm looking out my window and see a sugar beet farmer right behind my house, he's planting this year's crop. It looks like he just bought a new $200,000 and something tractor, its parked next to his new $40,000 pickup (his last pickup was only a year old) So my point is, yes sugar beets are lucrative crop for FARMERS and yes I know I'm paying for it, and no I don't like it one bit!!! The industry might start to fall to pieces soon, but I haven't seen any signs of it here yet. When it finally does end the farmers will just move to another heavily subsidized crop, or not grow one at all and the government will pay them for that too. They cant loose as long as the feds continue to bail them out, it pisses me off to no end but it is what it is.
on Apr 28, 2007
Bingo! And there are a few other dirty secrets about hydrogen that never seem to get brought up. First, hydrogen is the simplest atom that exists. What that means is that you can't fully contain hydrogen in a container -- it can seep through the atomic structure of any substance. You can, of course, slow the process by having thick walled heavy tanks


the company i was talking about had them in pillet form just add water
on Apr 28, 2007
Wonder how superconductivity research is coming along?
on Apr 29, 2007

We should just go with WATER (HHO gas)

Watch link and you will see
Link
The Problem is that water is Cheap and Big Business wants to keep Oil
on Apr 29, 2007

if we all plugged in we would have double or trible the number of power plants to produce all of that power

and there goes all that savings in pollution

Hardly.  Please research before you make things up.  The research so far indicates a minimal difference because most of the charging would occur in non-peek hours.

on Apr 29, 2007
what about all those millions who work grave yard shift when will they plug in during peak hours guess what we can't handle any more draw on our power

if you don't believe me ask california

and i don't know about you but i would demand the ability to plug in while at work

that way i have a full charge should i want to go out before going home

on Apr 29, 2007

what about all those millions who work grave yard shift when will they plug in during peak hours guess what we can't handle any more draw on our power

if you don't believe me ask california

and i don't know about you but i would demand the ability to plug in while at work

that way i have a full charge should i want to go out before going home

How about you provide one link to substantiate your claim?

I already did my research for this article. I already know you are incorrect.

Power use is not an unknown.

And like I also said earlier, if we really want to deal with this issue, we could just build more nuclear power plants. But people get hysterical about them -- usually the same dolts who support Ethanol.

Being green is a "feel good" concept for a lot of people. They aren't really serious about doing something or they'd embrace technologies like nuclear power.

Instead, we have ridiculous things like solar power plants that are larger than Central Park in NY that only produce 80MW of power. So the "green" folks are perfectly okay wiping out massive amounts of wild habitat for small amounts of power but will freak out about nuclear power plants that use a fraction of the space but produce far more power.  We're not talking about serious people here.

 

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