Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
How many times can a man be wrong, before nobody takes him seriously? The answer my friends...
Published on July 14, 2004 By Draginol In Politics

Nobody wants to admit their side makes mistakes in judgment.  Usually both sides in an argument share some part of the blame. But in my experience, one side usually has more of it shoulder than the other.

In terms of dealing with Iraq, it strikes me that the left has been the most cynical in dealing with the whole Iraq situation.  Some of you probably disagree and are prepared to hit the comment button and paste in Anti-Bush quote #2921 that you found on some website.

So let me put forth my case here and decide for yourself:

In 2000, Russia and France not only weren't interested in "letting the sanctions" do their work, they wanted them lifted.  They wanted Saddam's regime off the hook even though they had kicked the inspectors out in 1998 and were regularly shooting at US and British planes.

But they weren't alone.  The left was making powerful arguments that UN sanctions were killing 72,000 Iraqi children per year! The left was demanding removing the sanctions entirely because of the humanitarian cost.

So there were 3 realistic options:

(a) Keep the sanctions despite Russia and France's desire to lift them and the left's insistence than they were murdering thousands of innocent Iraqi's.

( Lift the sanctions on Iraq leaving Saddam free to do whatever.

(c) Remove Saddam and lift sanctions.

Now, if someone in 2000 said that you could remove Saddam and have a new Iraqi government with no sanctions within a year or so of work many people would have said that's optimistic to the extreme.  And if they said it could be done with fewer than 1,000 coalition and fewer than 15,000 Iraqi civilians killed total in the whole thing then that would have been considered misleading right-wing propaganda.

In fact, if some recall, the left was claiming such an intervention would likely cause half a MILLION Iraqi civilian casualties (I've got dozens of links from the time claiming the same thing).

But when the Bush administration started asserting that after 9/11, we needed to remove Saddam (argue WHY Bush wanted Saddam gone elsewhere, let's stick with the facts here) France and Russia started a new thing "Let the sanctions work." Huh? They wanted to lift the sanctions. Oh, I get it, let the sanctions work until the Americans elect a more reasonable President. Gotcha.

The left, meanwhile, argued that going into Iraq would cause half a million civilian casualties (sorry, wanted to use one more of these great links) so we shouldn't go in. Besides, the left argued, containment was good enough.  Containment would do the job. Containment? Wait a second, I thought the sanctions (now called containment) were killing 6,000 babies a month! We were starving the innocents. Now you're okay with this?

Of course, ultimately the US invaded.  And what was learned was shocking. First, it looks like there were no stockpiles of WMD in Iraq. At least, none that we've found. They may have been moved, they may still be hidden, or they may simply not exist.

Secondly, it turned out that France and Russia, you remember them right? The ones who wanted to lift sanctions? Turns out that they had secret agreements with Saddam for massively lucrative oil contracts.  Turned out someone's position about Iraq was about "the oillll". It just wasn't the US.

The third thing we learned is that 6,000 Iraqi babies weren't dying each month. That was just propaganda. Civilian deaths due to the sanctions are still not known but it's likely a figure close to 0.

Fourth, not that it matters given the third thing but it turned out that Saddam was taking that oil for food program and using it as his personal wallet. A billion in cash was found by US soldiers in canisters. Money siphoned off the oil for food program.  Of course, the palaces alone should make it clear to anyone that there was plenty of money available.

Fifth, instead of half a million casualties, there have been fewer than 15,000. Incidentally, I'm trying to use left-wing sites for most of my data, lest I be accused of being biased for the right on this. So I am using data that is intentionally biased the other way. I highly doubt 15,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed but if left-wingers will concede that only 15,000 have perished, that's fine since it's only 3% of the half million estimate they claimed.

And so here we are, in 2004. Iraq has a new government. Relative little damage was done to Iraq in removing Saddam and the sanctions are lifted.  But based on the behavior of the left, it's hard to conclude anything other than that they were pro-Saddam.  They wanted sanctions removed because they claimed 6,000 children died a month on it.  But if the choice was between 6,000 dying per month just from the sanctions (let alone the atrocities Saddam committed himself) or removing sanctions but Saddam had to go they preferred Saddam apparently. Even if the left really believed half a million would die in the invasion and occupation, that's only 7 years of casualties from "containment" of just small children let alone the tens of thousands Saddam was offing each year.

What gives?

So the left has a new strategy it seems, to try to deflect away from their own embarrassing errors, they focus on the one apparent mistake by the Bush administration: No WMD stockpiles found. The left didn't want to do anything constructive about Saddam (other than support him, sometimes outright) but they'll nitpick the WMD stockpiles and try to claim that THAT was why the US went in despite the people who favored going in never having made that a big issue (go ahead, there's plenty of right-wing sites on the net, go look at the articles written in 2002 and see how many even give a rip about WMD stockpiles

Sure, the links between the terrorist organizations and Iraq seem pretty solid according to the bipartisan senate report on the CIA (which slammed the CIA on pretty much everything else). 

And fine, the Kaye report stated found plenty of evidence of WMD programs existed. And that Saddam's strategy was: Wait for France and Russia to get the sanctions lifted and then go whole hog. 

But Bush said Iraq had X tons of mustard gas and you know, that was the real reason we went in.  Right? It has to be right because the left-wingers say it is and it's not like they've been wrong before...

Life rarely works out perfectly. But if events were put into a Choose your own Adventure and we had done what France and Russia wanted and lifted the sanctions on Saddam's Iraq OR we had done the US route which is remove Saddam and lift sanctions, which path do you think, 10 years from now, would yield better results?


Comments (Page 2)
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on Jul 16, 2004
Interesting arguement Madine and Brad, but one I disagree with.

I have absolutely no problem with someone cherry picking quotes from important people, especially if they even tell you when and where the quote is from. Cherry picking 'facts' or 'data' however is far more dangerous. If someone quotes from Bush I can always locate the speech and look for context. The fact remains that he said it though. Same with any other leading figure. The problem with quoting numbers though is that data is easily manipulated, and often used in dubious cases.

For example. Your point 2 above.
Secondly, it turned out that France and Russia, you remember them right? The ones who wanted to lift sanctions? Turns out that they had secret agreements with Saddam for massively lucrative oil contracts.


Thankfully you actually provided links to these 'facts'. What you find when you look at the links is that 11 French based individuals are named out of 270 worldwide as having received vouchers for the delivery of oil to Iraq. While it is strange that these weren't official UN vouchers, and while there may be some indication of back handed payments, there is as yet no proof. Further more, there is no indication that these 11 individuals represented the French government. And before you say, but so and so knows Chirac, how many businessmen who can supply millions of barrel of opil are unlikely to know their governments or to have met them at functions? But from this 'fact' you state that France itself had secret agreements with Saddam. By your logic so did the USA.



So to answer your points
1) Forget quoting data as it's far to easy to draw wrong or poor conclusions. Stick to quoting speeches, it's much safer.
2) Yes.
a) This is true. We can quote Chirac to prove it. he is on record as wanting sanction against the Iraqi people lifted.
How left. Some people certainly were others were not. The statement itself is misleading.
c) I have no idea who, what or where Ann Arbor is, and the link gives a number for the figure, no justification of where the number is from.
France and Russia were both on record as saying they WOULD support war if the US provided WMD proof or non compliance with 1441. As I've said before the US never tried arguing for war for any other reason. If only they had then we could debate your point, rather than relying on conjecture and assumptions.

Paul.
on Jul 16, 2004

when would be a good time to invade Iraq? 12 years wasn't long enough? After 9/11 there was no way in hell that a Saddam-led Iraq was going to be acceptable.


a good time? i dont know.  a better time would have been after the military objectives in afghanistan had been fully accomplished.  the taliban isnt gone.  bin laden and mullah omar arent in custody or dead.  one need look no farther than the video clip of the saudis offloading khalid al-harbi to realize eluding capture in afghanistan doesnt require one to run--or roll--too fast.  every week, the number of attacks and casualties increases.

on Jul 16, 2004
"the taliban isnt gone. "


Out of curiosity, how would you prepose we make the Taliban "gone"? Gas chambers? Ovens? The Taliban is going to exist as long as people call themselves Taliban. If they put their weapons in a closet for a month or two, it doesn't mean the Taliban is gone.

It is an impossible arguement. I'd like to see bin Laden caught, but I have no faith that it will end Al Qaeda or do much but piss a lot of people off. If you think Iraq rallied the people against the US, drag his body out like we did Hussein's sons or put him on trial like Hussein himself.

You pretend that the "military objectives" in Afghanistan would somehow close the deal. Unseating Hussein began a new era in Iraq. Finding bin Laden will do the same thing for Al Qaeda, not end it. You show a lot of disrespect for the forces in Afghanistan when you pretend they haven't been doing anything.

Spend some time learning about what the weather is like there, and the terrain. You might find that you could pour billions more and another 100k troops into a search and not do a damn bit better than they are doing now.
on Jul 16, 2004

You show a lot of disrespect for the forces in Afghanistan when you pretend they haven't been doing anything.


not nearly the disrespect shown by whomever decided that 20,000 pairs of boots on the ground was sufficient force to do the job safely or well.   i have nothing but admiration for the troops and in-country command and an equal portion of disgust for those who sell a mission as 'enduring freedom' without an equally enduring commitment.


Unseating Hussein began a new era in Iraq.


i would prefer a safer era in the usa.


Spend some time learning about what the weather is like there, and the terrain


for three years (1967-1970) my cousin traveled throughout afghanistan, purchasing handcrafted clothing, carpets and furniture for export.  we worked and hung out together for a good part of the summer following his return to the states. i was very curious bout his experiences and he was more than forthcoming so im not totally ignorant about the climate, culture, topography of the country. 

on Jul 16, 2004

I'd like to see bin Laden caught, but I have no faith that it will end Al Qaeda or do much but piss a lot of people off.


following the seige of falloujah, insurgents who were being absorbed into the newly constituted 'security force' were quoted by reporters as attributing their 'victory' over coalition troops to intervention by allah in the form of a. a mysterious phenomenon that made it impossible for pilots to see anything but a mirage when over falloujah airspace. b. a plague of giant spiders  c. the appearance of knights dressed all in white on white horses who were bulletproof...angels of allah. Link


if that passes as a reasonable explanation for their ability to hold out against us for a month, imagine the legends that are springing up about bin laden remaining free

 

on Jul 16, 2004
Hi...didn't know how else to contact you.... I find it strange that one of the blog sites is used for nothing more than adverizing.... is this allowed?..Here is the site...Batra Marriage Bureau
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