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A position a day makes a campaign okay?
Published on September 29, 2004 By Draginol In Republican

I'm trying to understand Kerry's various positions.

He said at one time that Saddam and his WMDs were a threat that needed to be taken care of. Later he said that Saddam was a diversion from Afghanistan. Despite that, he voted for giving the President authorization to use force against Iraq. One wonders, if he thought Iraq was a diversion, why even give the President such authorization?

He later said we're better off with Saddam gone but then in an interview months later says he wouldn't have gone to war with Saddam because it distracts from the war on Al Qaeda.

But then even later he says that even knowing what he knows now he would have still voted for the war resolution.

Yet today, in an interview with Diane Sawyer he says that knowing what he knows today he wouldn't have voted for it.

But when asked if going into Iraq was worth it he states:

SAWYER: So it was not worth it?

KERRY: We should not -- depends on the outcome ultimately and that depends on the leadership, and we need better leadership to get the job done successfully. But I would not have gone to war knowing that there was no imminent threat --

Well wait a second, depends on the outcome? What kind of nonsense is that? And if Iraq wasn't an imminent threat, why did he vote for the war resolution in the first place?

I'm really trying to understand Kerry's position. Perhaps it is too "nuanced" for me.


Comments
on Sep 29, 2004
Understanding Kerry

By: Draginol
Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 on Opinionated Techie
Message Board: Republican
I'm trying to understand Kerry's various positions.
He said at one time that Saddam and his WMDs were a threat that needed to be taken care of. Later he said that Saddam was a diversion from Afghanistan. Despite that, he voted for giving the President authorization to use force against Iraq. One wonders, if he thought Iraq was a diversion, why even give the President such authorization?
He later said we're better off with Saddam gone but then in an interview months later says he wouldn't have gone to war with Saddam because it distracts from the war on Al Qaeda.
But then even later he says that even knowing what he knows now he would have still voted for the war resolution.
Yet today, in an interview with Diane Sawyer he says that knowing what he knows today he wouldn't have voted for it.
But when asked if going into Iraq was worth it he states:
SAWYER: So it was not worth it?

KERRY: We should not -- depends on the outcome ultimately and that depends on the leadership, and we need better leadership to get the job done successfully. But I would not have gone to war knowing that there was no imminent threat --
Well wait a second, depends on the outcome? What kind of nonsense is that? And if Iraq wasn't an imminent threat, why did he vote for the war resolution in the first place?
I'm really trying to understand Kerry's position. Perhaps it is too "nuanced" for me.


Way to go Draginol! That's what's better known as flip-flopping.
on Sep 30, 2004
Kerry's flip-flopping has a calculated purpose though. He has known for quite some time that democrats have a very wide range of opinions on Iraq and the war on terror. He could not afford to take a firm position on this issue too early in the campaign for fear of alienating a large portion of his base so - mixing it up from one month to the next keeps them all guessing until the final stretch where Kerry hopes they will default to him along with many of the undecided voters. Its a huge gamble but a risk he had to take in light of his numerous character flaws.
BUT HEY........that tanning cream will fix him right up for the debates
on Sep 30, 2004
Some Kerry supporters support the war; some Kerry supporters oppose it. Kerry agrees with his supporters.

It looks lilke Kerry has taken the position of someone who is looking to cut our losses in Iraq and greatly reduce our presence there.
on Sep 30, 2004
Very well put Draginol, I completly agree and have thought the same things myself. This man has changed his mind to suit his political needs more times than some people change their underwear.
on Sep 30, 2004
I haven't researched this see if dates actually coincide or not, but it seems to me that each Kerry "flip-flop" coincides with changes in the situation we were in in Iraq. So I wonder if changing your mind based on the situation is actually a bad thing.

I'm betting this is going to be one of the things that comes out in the debate. Kerry was flexible enough to change his view when the situation changed. Bush, on the other hand has been stubborn as all get out.

I am one of these folks sitting on the fence, and can't decide who to vote for in November. I don't trust either of them. I am leaning toward Kerry, however, just because I despise being lied to. Not that Kerry won't lie to me too, but he hasn't yet. If Bush would come out and tell the world that the reason that he took Saddam out was because Saddam put a price on George Sr's head, and in Texas, them's fightin' words, I might give him my vote, but instead he keeps lying about his reasons and pushing the blame on to everyone else instead of taking some responsibility.

If I screw up, my supervisor has to take the heat, because ultimately it's his responsibility. Same for ol' George. He's the big cheese. He needs to take full responsibility for any mistakes we, as a country, have made. I don't care if it was the fault of someone at the CIA, or some dork in Great Britain, it's ultimately Dubya's responsibility, and he needs to be a man and admit that he screwed up. Until he does this, he doesn't get my vote.
on Sep 30, 2004
Some Kerry supporters support the war; some Kerry supporters oppose it. Kerry agrees with his supporters.


That's a good line, Madine.
on Sep 30, 2004
but instead he keeps lying about his reasons


How do you know he is lying? BTW - that is a serious question.

Is it because you have heard or read that he is lying? Or do you actually have proof of lies he has supposedly told. Note: Opinion is not proof.

My point is that I hear this repeated a lot and have yet to see anything other than opinion to back up the claim. Something to note: Repeating a prevalent, widely held belief, which turns out to be wrong after the fact, is not considered a lie.
on Sep 30, 2004

Reply #7 By: pictoratus - 9/30/2004 1:05:16 PM
but instead he keeps lying about his reasons


How do you know he is lying? BTW - that is a serious question.

Is it because you have heard or read that he is lying? Or do you actually have proof of lies he has supposedly told. Note: Opinion is not proof.

My point is that I hear this repeated a lot and have yet to see anything other than opinion to back up the claim. Something to note: Repeating a prevalent, widely held belief, which turns out to be wrong after the fact, is not considered a lie.


I must agree with *pictoratus* where is your proof that he's lying? And NO, opinion is NOT proof!
on Sep 30, 2004
I am leaning toward Kerry, however, just because I despise being lied to. Not that Kerry won't lie to me too, but he hasn't yet. If Bush would come out and tell the world that the reason that he took Saddam out was because Saddam put a price on George Sr's head, and in Texas, them's fightin' words, I might give him my vote, but instead he keeps lying about his reasons and pushing the blame on to everyone else instead of taking some responsibility.


Strange your willing to call Bush a lier because he siad there was WMD, but wish to ignore the fact that Kerry also made a speech saying there was WMD also long before Bush in 1997 and then again just before he voted for Military Action. Then claim that Kerry has not lied to you.
on Oct 01, 2004
It is not hard to understand as he is not changing his positions at all. He is trying to word it differently to state his position and gets himself into hot water with people who are into discrediting him. I find it hard to understand a man who has more bullcrap then I ever heard in my entire life. The debate proves how horrible Mr Bush is at being president he was a bumbling fool and that is me being nice! Kerry is a good man and will make a great president. Bush has ruining this country and it will take a lot longer then 4 years to repair the damage. I blame Bush for a good friend of mine dying in the 911 attacks. He was more interested in vacationing then paying attention to the warnings by his terrorist Czar and the Clinton administration. Anyone sticking up for this man just is blind sided or maybe there is some other word to describe those people better. He thinks he is on a mission by God, doesn't anyone see what is wrong with this picture?
on Oct 01, 2004
If I screw up, my supervisor has to take the heat, because ultimately it's his responsibility. Same for ol' George. He's the big cheese. He needs to take full responsibility for any mistakes we, as a country, have made.


But remember, this is the "CEO presidency" and if there is one thing that CEO's do not do (as we've seen in the last few years), it's take responsibility for the organizations that they run! lol
on Oct 01, 2004
ummmm.....John Kerry is a "good man"? The same John Kerry who came back from Vietnam, and turned his back on his own "brothers" in the war (The same war that he now says qualifies him to be president)? The same "good man" that is recognized as a hero to the communist Vietnamese, and has a picture to that impact hanging in Saigon (link: http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040531140357545)?

The same "good man" who is "reporting for duty", but proclaims he **should** be untouchable (in his military service), and that nobody should ever question his time in service in Vietnam? (just a note here, I think that the Swift Boat Veterans crap was just that...crap....but for Kerry to cry "foul play" when his military service is scrutinized, especially AFTER he makes that his campaign stance....well....what do you think?)

No....John Kerry is not a "good man"....a "good man" doesn't change his mind at the drop of a hat just to gain the popularity of the ppl....a "good man" doesn't change his convictions, and his beliefs about something, just because he sees that another politician is gaining by running against something (I was for the war, but then Howard Dean was gaining recognition for being atainst the war, so now...hey, i am against the war...watch me flip-flop-and-fly!!!!).

To me...Kerry is a joke....and I think the Democratic party thrusted him in, just so he would lose, and so Hilary Clinton can run in 2008....Lord knows the only reason he chose not to run this time was because at the time, Bush was "untouchable"....

Kerry is an opportunist....he took the opportunity to propel himself by being anti-vietnam war, he took the opportunity to change his stance (how many times now?) on the Iraq war....and he has taken the opportunity to protray himself as a war hero (to what country though? Ours? or Vietnam?)....a war hero for a war he came back and protested....

Something REALLY sickens me about John Kerry....his Anti War speech before the Senate was played to the POW's that were barely surviving over there, while they were being beaten within an inch of their lives (oh, and how many died hearing Kerry call them all "War Crminals"?).....

No...John Kerry is NOT a "good man"....he is a politician by the most derogatory definition of the term "politician".....to me, he is slime....I served in the military...and though i was never in combat or any war....I can just imagine what it would feel like to have a "brother" who served right next to me...shed blood right next to me....faced bullets and mortars and sure death right next to me....get out for band-aid purple heart wounds...and call me a War Criminal.....

John Kerry a "good man"? maybe if your definition of "good" is "bad".....
on Oct 01, 2004

Reply #12 By: MythicalMino - 10/1/2004 1:52:47 PM
ummmm.....John Kerry is a "good man"? The same John Kerry who came back from Vietnam, and turned his back on his own "brothers" in the war (The same war that he now says qualifies him to be president)? The same "good man" that is recognized as a hero to the communist Vietnamese, and has a picture to that impact hanging in Saigon (link: http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040531140357545)?

The same "good man" who is "reporting for duty", but proclaims he **should** be untouchable (in his military service), and that nobody should ever question his time in service in Vietnam? (just a note here, I think that the Swift Boat Veterans crap was just that...crap....but for Kerry to cry "foul play" when his military service is scrutinized, especially AFTER he makes that his campaign stance....well....what do you think?)

No....John Kerry is not a "good man"....a "good man" doesn't change his mind at the drop of a hat just to gain the popularity of the ppl....a "good man" doesn't change his convictions, and his beliefs about something, just because he sees that another politician is gaining by running against something (I was for the war, but then Howard Dean was gaining recognition for being atainst the war, so now...hey, i am against the war...watch me flip-flop-and-fly!!!!).

To me...Kerry is a joke....and I think the Democratic party thrusted him in, just so he would lose, and so Hilary Clinton can run in 2008....Lord knows the only reason he chose not to run this time was because at the time, Bush was "untouchable"....

Kerry is an opportunist....he took the opportunity to propel himself by being anti-vietnam war, he took the opportunity to change his stance (how many times now?) on the Iraq war....and he has taken the opportunity to protray himself as a war hero (to what country though? Ours? or Vietnam?)....a war hero for a war he came back and protested....

Something REALLY sickens me about John Kerry....his Anti War speech before the Senate was played to the POW's that were barely surviving over there, while they were being beaten within an inch of their lives (oh, and how many died hearing Kerry call them all "War Crminals"?).....

No...John Kerry is NOT a "good man"....he is a politician by the most derogatory definition of the term "politician".....to me, he is slime....I served in the military...and though i was never in combat or any war....I can just imagine what it would feel like to have a "brother" who served right next to me...shed blood right next to me....faced bullets and mortars and sure death right next to me....get out for band-aid purple heart wounds...and call me a War Criminal.....

John Kerry a "good man"? maybe if your definition of "good" is "bad".....


My thoughts *exactly*! As to his medals and conduct in country is irelevant. What he did after the war and when he was home on the other hand surely IS relevant!
on Oct 05, 2004
Strange, one can't change ones own mind when information arrises that warrants said change?

Kerry gave Bush his vote to go into Iraq because he and everyone else was told Saddam had the capabilities to obtain/develop WMD's...Nukes or otherwise.

Now it is known that that was a LIE, so sure with this new info Kerry could say he doesn't support it now.

As far as those Band-Aid-Purple Hearts?

ANY candidate that would condone the downright desecration of The Order Of The Purple Heart is an ASS in my mind. Bush NEVER served in Combat, he DODGED it.

So what if he made a "anti-war speech". It is his indeniable Constitutional right you know, doesn't make him any less of a man or a "Flip-Flopper". He went to war 30 yrs ago thinking it was for one reason, found out the TRUTH and changed his mind and spoke out about it. So did hundreds of other Vets, so did my Father who happened to be Special Forces and retired as such with 30yrs of service. I followed in his footsteps and had my own war(skirmish really) during Desert Storm. I served my time, I have the medals, I have the Purple Heart. At least I am alive today to say something unlike the 3 men that died next to me when I earned that medal.
on Oct 05, 2004
Ah the Purple Heart, or as some (military personnel I know and myself) call it the 'Enemy Marksmanship Badge'. Hmm.

Oh well to each their own.

- GX
Enslaved Employee of INGSOC