No problem Dusk,

You did illustrate the intent of my post. It really sets me off (not your post but as a generalization) when someone tries to paint those of us who rail against anti-Americanism as being a bunch of narrow minded goose stepping goons who equate obedience to the government with patriotism.

Rumsfeld, btw, did not state that criticizing the President is unpatriotic. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote like that.  I think what is more likely is that the press took a sound bite out of context and inferred that.  I remember last month when a Cheney sound bite was manipulated into sounding like Cheney was saying that if Kerry wins we'll be attacked by terrorists which was not what he was saying at all.

Damn it! I'm anti-American! Oh well. I guess I'll just have to chant "Death to American Pigdogs!" or something while rhythmically moving my AK-47 above my head, the great rebel that I am.

I think the US did kind of have it coming with 9/11 (i mean even the conservatives argue that terrorism is inevitable, so of course the US and every other nation has/had it coming).

I'd like to see the EU become a counter-balance to the US because then hopefully both will be involved with each other long enough for the glorious rise of the Australian empire.

I think most US presidents are war criminals, as are most world leaders; it's of the nature of global politics that eggs are broken in the making of omelettes. But I'd prefer a war criminal for a president than someone with unshakable principles who would be incapable of making the hard decisions.

The rest I either disagree with or can't fully agree with.
- the average American, like a huge minority of Australians, is fat, but not necessarily stupid if the stats are to be believed;
- judges make poor rulers nearly every time they make it into positions of considerable power, and history has shown that time and again;
- the US is currently the greatest threat to the sovereignty of most of the world, but they win wars so quickly world peace doesn't really get affected that much.
- American culture is mostly hideous, but then again anyone who makes intelligent, witty shows like "South Park", "Malcom in the Middle" and the rest can't be all bad.
- I don't want the US to lose in Iraq because then everyone's wasted their time and money, but I think they're going about the whole thing the wrong way.
- US-style capitalism brought together the slave-labour necessary to create every bit of clothing I'm wearing now and most of the things I own. I have no intention of talking down the fruits of empire. I don't see any reason to feel shame for the horror inflicted in my name.

You think the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed".
Not at all.

You prefer law be made by appointed judges rather than elected officials.
Not at all.

You think of the United States, as a whole, to be "the greatest threat to world peace".
Not at all.

You think American culture is a grotesque cancer spreading across the world.
Not at all.

You think that the United States is the greatest threat to the environment. Not quite.
I believe that IRRESPONSIBLE companies is a threat to the environment.

You think that the United States kind of "had it coming" on 9/11 because of years of its "foreign policy" Not at all.
You hope that the United States "loses" in Iraq. Not at all.

You would like to see China or Russia or the European Union act as a "counter balance" to the US militarily Not at all.
You consider Bush, Clinton, or any other US President a "War criminal" Not at all.

You believe that US-style capitalism is a force for global ruin, individual degradation, or environmental catastrophe.
Not quite. I believe that IRRESPONSIBLE companies is a threat to the environment.

I think the US did kind of have it coming with 9/11 (i mean even the conservatives argue that terrorism is inevitable, so of course the US and every other nation has/had it coming).

There's a big difference between something being inevitable and something being deserved.

I'm going to have disagree you on the anti-Americanism of the left (in general and not in the blogging sense). I've always gotten the impression that it was some form of propaganda coming from the right and that the right had something to hide. I remember reading in the Detroit News (and I'm trying to search for it in the Free Press), Donald Rumseld being quoting as saying, "if you criticize the United States or President Bush, you're being unpatriotic."

Dusk, you dreamed that. He never said it, so dont bother trying to find it. A paraphrased version of that was stated by HRC and Teddy, but no republican law maker ever made that statement,nor ever would.

I think CrispE is righton here. I prefer foreign cars. Not because I'm anti-American. I prefer them because experience has told me they're more reliable (I've owned several of each). Oh... and my wife owns a service shop and every mechanic working for her either prefers "vintage" American cars, or newer foreign cars.

I also don't know why believing "…the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed"" makes me anti-American. It just makes me anti-idiot. Have you dealt with the general public lately? The professionals I deal with (I'm a software developer); my clients, etc are all examples of people who are on the up and up. Well… most of them. ;O)

The general public; the glazed eyed people at Wal-Mart, the people grazing at the mall on Friday nights, the people wasting tons of money in slot machines at the local casino while wearing shoes with holes, and the person doing 50 mph in the far left lane on the highway… they… are idiots. The people who tell me they’re voting for Bush because “he’s the President” or “their pastor told them too”... they are sheep. The people who won’t even question the fact our current President won because of a voting error in a state where his relative is the Governor… are brain washed. I’m not claiming its fact, only that people won’t even entertain the idea and call it conspiracy theory.

BTW... I also think the general public of most other countries are stupid, sheep, and brain washed as well. It's not localized to the American public.

All other points are pretty right on the money.

I very much enjoy reading your posts, and the torrent of responses they elicit. I don’t always agree, but love that you voice such well though out opinions… Keep up the good work!

the fact our current President won because of a voting error in a state where his relative is the Governor… are brain washed. I’m not claiming it's fact

Dude, you've gotta make up your mind. Is it "fact" or not?
(Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, all the background I've seen on it indicates that the correct results were obtained in the end, and I wish people would let it drop. Yes, I did read a lot about it, spun from either direction.)

A slightly different take on the topic:

I see the concept of a national conscience being relevant here. You know, "I'm upset because my nation is responsible for [grave injustice]" Those things that weigh on such a conscience might be debatable at times, but that isn't really the point. Neither is it worthwhile philosophizing too much ( I didn't clean my plate at lunch - while millions starve )

What can be done about it, and who cares enough to do something?

Who thinks that America needs to be taken down a notch, humbled, brought down? What if they're American citizens?

I really think it would be a mistake to subscribe to this idea.
I also really think that the loudest of America's critics in the world want us to elect a leader who might entertain such an idea.

good response, LW, you've made me think

And its no small irony that some of the most PRO american people ive ever met are first generation immigrants, who know first hand what its like to live under regimes where all of the above mentioned attitudes are perfectly justified because they are based in fact.

Good point, Hell I work with tons of them, some of them Iraqi's or Kurds. None of these people give a rat's ass about people who mail pictures of themselves holding "i'm so sorry" signs to Iraq. They think these people are retarded as they obviously have no clue what life under Saddam (or in other nations like his Iraq) was all about. Pain and terror. Ask them if America works for the greater good, not some jackhole college student who thinks the world should be like a what he see's on a BBC sitcom.

You might be anti-American if your name is Fred.

IMO the above statement has about as much relevance as most of your top ten there: While being 100% true, the one has little to do with the other.

1. You think the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed".

If I thought that, and also that the average Russian was a chess master and a goat (or other barnyard animal), perhaps. But how about equal opportunity feeling superior to others in the brains department? I'd say it makes me want to watch my head in narrow doorways, but doesn't convey much about my nationality bashing. Although perhaps it shows a very pessimistic view of the world population, and if being American means being optimistic (little_whip), that would make me un-American at least.

7. You hope that the United States "loses" in Iraq.

I felt sick to my stomach when I heard George W Bush interrupt my radio station to inform me that we'd been dropping bombs on Baghdad for the past few hours. I was shocked, if not awed. And I remember wondering what side I should take. I didn't want our boys to die, but neither did I want civilian casualties, and to be honest those Iraqi soldiers were just doing their job, and I wouldn't want to be the mailman handing their mothers the dread telegrams. So, at the time, did I want the US to lose in Iraq? No, I just didn't want them to win, either. The situation is even worse now, as leaving or staying will both cause more deaths. Anti-American or anti-war?

8. You would like to see China or Russia or the European Union act as a "counter balance" to the US militarily

I wouldn't mind it, certainly. Plus it does seem likely, the real question is when. I'll throw out the libertarian chant here: Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Assuming that up until now the United States has been a benevolent sole Super Power, there is still a great threat if no checks and balances are in place. (And to go off on a tangent, why is it that Libertarians never say that when talking about Microsoft?)

2. You prefer law be made by appointed judges rather than elected officials.

I can't honestly say that I agree with that statement, but I fail to understand the anti-American sentiment behind those who do. I personally believe in a strict separation of the judicial, executive and legislative branches of government, but seeing as it is very American to have the head of the executive be able to veto the legislative and appoint the judicial, I'd say the separation is already lost. Perhaps I simply fail to see the obvious, but I'm stumped on this one. In what way does this signal for Senator McCarthy?

3. - 5. + 9. I'll try and sum up: The United States of America (generally reflecting on companies or political policies, with an optional president thrown in every now and then) is baaaad.

Let me answer that with some questions, I know how that tactic is loved and adored:
Is it anti-German to think Hitler was a war criminal, anti-Russian for Stalin, etc? Personally I find it harsh to condemn an entire nation for the acts of some. Be anti-Nazi, anti-Hitler, anti-getting a man elected Chancelor in a vote more hokey that Florida 2000, don't go nation bashing. We've had American Indian haters as president, may I be less than thrilled with them? We've had "not a crook"s, arms dealers who developed amnesia (or had it all along, as the case may be), etc. May I dislike their policies, their lack of honesty, the way they tainted our reputation, and perhaps even go so far as to dislike them? Sure, maybe I should forgive and forget, but I would think I reserve the right to not like certain people on account of their actions. I didn't like the kid who bullied me in school, and although I haven't seen him since I still don't like him. Perhaps I don't think of him as a war criminal, but even if I did I don't think that would make me anti-School. Anti-bullying, yes.

So, to wrap up the above paragraph: Dislike of a few, even those elected to lead the rest, does not make me dislike the group itself. I'm anti-Bush, anti-Kerry, anti-Nader and anti-Libertarian guy. I'd be anti-Socialist if they were running anybody, but he's running for Senator in New York as the Green party candidate, so I'm against him there. But I don't think that makes me anti-American, I think that makes me pro-wanting a president I can agree with more often that not. So I'll vote against the worst evil and hope for better luck next time. But if thinking that there are problems with America, and wanting to change those, is anti-American, then I guess we'd better get back to only male white landowners being allowed to decide the course of our country.

6. You think that the United States kind of "had it coming" on 9/11 because of years of its "foreign policy"

While I'd love to really go for the jugular, I can't think of any way to agree with that. But I'd say it doesn't constitute being anti-American, so much as being either pro-terrorist, or just plain being a jerk. (That word chosen out of sensitivity to the readers' eyes.) Now, the USS Cole bombing I saw as an act of war, which I disapprove of, but which seems to be unavoidable. So, am I back on the anti-American list?

10. You believe that US-style capitalism is a force for global ruin, individual degradation, or environmental catastrophe

Again, the faults of some don't necessarily bring down an entire nation. Capitalism and the US aren't joined at the hip, there is a chance (roughly the same as Lucifer building a snowman) that America turns Communist. Will anyone who didn't agree with the above be labeled an anti-American traitor and executed? Yeah, probably. So are we better than that? I should friggin' hope so.

--Nate

Let me just jump on my own statement and say that I kind of got carried away and failed to double check before posting, as I usually would. (Ah, the internet is a wonderful way to take back things you didn't want to say.)

You explicitly said none of the 10 reasons were policy related and I did bring policy into it in 3. - 5. + 9. My sincerest apologies. Now, to rationalize:

I do feel that it is somewhat hard to completely split policy from the policy-maker. Someone who supports racist policies, is a racist. I feel that way in any case. To make things clear: I am NOT accusing any politician of being racist, at least not right at the moment, simply citing an example to underscore my view.

I will however try to play by your rules and comment on 3. - 5. + 9. without the use of policies.

4. You think American culture is a grotesque cancer spreading across the world.
Not sure there really is such a thing as American culture. It's mostly a lot of melting pot cultures.

3. + 5. You think of the United States, as a whole, to be "the greatest threat to world peace/the environment".

I'm sure one could argue long and hard about who's "the greatest" (Actually, I believe it's the little boy in the baseball cap, courtesy of Kenny Rogers, the singer not the baseball player), but I do believe the US is a threat to both the environment and world peace. Some of the reasons for this are: the president, stockpiled nukes and failure to sign the Kyoto treaty. Now, if Ghandi were in charge, I think we'd be less of a threat to world peace. However, getting rid of nuclear weapons and signing Kyoto would be policy changes, and I promised to steer clear of those. I hope you realize the sacrifices I'm going through for you.

9. You consider Bush, Clinton, or any other US President a "War criminal"

As pointed out earlier, trying to wipe out an entire nation would be deemed a war crime today, however at the time there was no such thing as the Geneva convention or anything similar (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'd be hard pressed to make that case.
I do believe that thinking Bush is a war criminal certainly isn't completely without merit. Torturing POWs is a war crime, and *IF* an order could be traced back to Bush that would certainly saddle him with equal responsability for committing said war crime. Now, that's a big "if", granted, but it's not a totally out of the blue remark.

BTW, I realize you said "might," I realize you said "symptoms," but when all is said and done you're still trying to make a point and I'm still disagreeing with you.

I must be anti-American becasue I definetly think that Americans as a whole are largely ignorant of the state of affairs around them. Ask an average American about who you're going go vote for, the issues that matter the most, the geo-political state of the country, and if you're lucky you might get, I'm going to vote for Kerry because I hate bush, or I'm going to vote for Bush because he's president.

I must be anti-American becasue I definetly think that Americans as a whole are largely ignorant of the state of affairs around them. Ask an average American about who you're going go vote for, the issues that matter the most, the geo-political state of the country, and if you're lucky you might get, I'm going to vote for Kerry because I hate bush, or I'm going to vote for Bush because he's president

Ask anyone in the post-industrial world this and you'll get the same sort of response. It's not limited to the US in any way.

little_whip: I think that was Matt Stone's point about apathetic voters and his request to just stay home. Mallard Fillmore (Political Comic) made a sundit point stating why should these apathetic people vote and cancel out my vote? So very true what you said, like the Political Machine it's awareness that gets someone to vote in first place.

Cactoblasta: Agreed I was making an example of how I felt of Americans at large but it can be applied in so many places around the world.

Helix exactly, you and little_whip hit it, call it awareness, media blitz, campaign dollars at work, everything ties into the convient sound bytes and bits. Instead of actually debating the issues they spent their time wisely debunking the other candiate. Ugh what a mess we're in. Either canidarte wins American loses.