Yes what happened to that innovation that we had.  Take something from someone or somewhere else and make it better.  I talked to a guy from the UK just the other day and asked him about that.  He said it was great.  He could get in to see a doc in a week and there wasnt much waiting and their cancer rates were lower than ours.  But I guess if we did this the big insurance and drug companies wouldnt be as rich and we cant have that right?

This has no relationship to the healthcare financing mechanism.

I am a person who lives in a country with universal healthcare. It works. Period.  In the last 5 years, every member of my immediate family has had medical treatment including my grandmother who had to have a 3 hour long operation (her fourth so far) that would have bankrupted us all if we didn't have universal healthcare.  I pay about 10% (a very jewish/christian/muslim ethic by the way) of my earnings every month in taxes to enjoy this service.  Sure, in the short term I have technically have less money but I don't have to worry about saving up for 'in case' or alternatively 'risking it' and not paying anything and hoping 'it never happens' - universal healthcare helps the poorer people in the country work harder and longer to make the financially comfortable, who can afford private health insurance, more financially comfortable (before you flame me, think about where their money comes from - the lottery?)

Given this, isn't asking these financially comfortable people to pay for a service they probably won't use kinda like them paying into something that indirectly helps them to maintain their comfort? Kinda like an insurance policy?

It's also the christian thing to do - or have I completely misinterpreted the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ?

but it is directly related to their system of universal health

the 10% by the way is not solely for healthcare

We don't have government provided health insurance and it works fine here too. I have health insurance. It's great. I go to any doctor I want, when I want, get good care. If I need a procedure, I can have it done quickly and paid by insurance.

I noticed everyone here keeps saying Obama's never accomplished anything of note and no ones really put anything he has done up here so i'll list a few bills he took part in during his time in the Senate:

* First legislation, the HOPE Act, which increased Pell Grants to $5100, and later joined Senator Kennedy on the Higher Education legislation that passed July 20, by a vote of 78-18. That legislation also included funding for Predominantly Black Colleges to assist with counseling, tutoring and other needs of low income students. It also creates the Teaching Residency Act which will create a school-based teacher preparation program in high needs schools to provide each teacher with a mentor, content instruction, classroom management skills, a master’s degree and state certification, and a 2 year follow-up program.

**The Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006
is an act that requires the full disclosure of all entities or organizations receiving federal funds beginning in fiscal year (FY) 2007 on a website maintained by the Office of Management and Budget.

Heres one with a republican, important as many people say he never ever worked with Republicans:

**The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act
Authored by U.S. Sens. Dick Lugar (R-IN) and Barack Obama (D-IL), the Lugar-Obama initiative expands U.S. cooperation to destroy conventional weapons. It also expands the State Department's ability to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction.
Signed into Law on January 11, 2007.

He also worked on the 2007 ethics bill which was good start in fighting lobbyists corruption. You can read all about it here : http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/302-Hooray-

I'll also raise a point that I'm really suprised i don't see more people raising. Everyone does a lot of talking about personal qualities and character nowadays, its all i hear on the media. Yet no one seems to point out an aspect of Obama that I think is VERY important. The world loves him. The whole biggest celebrity in the world things that McCain loved to try to throw in his face has some truth to it. Am i the only one that thinks this is a GOOD thing?

Everyone keeps talking about EXPERIENCE, LEADERSHIP, ACCOMPLISHMENT QUALIFICATIONS no one ever seems to mention that the President is not just the chief executive, he is also the chief DIPLOMAT. In many ways he is the face of America, when the world looks at us they see him first and formost.

I'm a firm believer that Diplomacy should be the most important aspect of a Foriegn Policy, so when i'm looking at a president I want to know he can get people behind things. Who better to do that than someone the world thinks highly of? I think just the act of electing him would change the world's view of us overnight. Imagine how much easier it will be to cooperate with the world when we have some good rep with them.

Thats something no other canidate could accomplish, not John McCain, not Sarah Palin, Not Hiliary Clinton, not Al Gore, not Ron Paul not Joe Biden. I just returned from ebing overseas and I can tell you the world's watching this election, and they are not rooting for John McCain. I know everyones going to respong the world doesn't elect our leaders we do, but its really something to think about. I think better reputation is something that we could use badly. and theres no doubt in my mind Obamas the best choice for that. Even if he does absoultely nothing (which Isn't going to happen) he can accomplish more on this front than any of the other canidates

I'm sure I won't change anyones mind but I think its a point that needs to be put out there.

I suppose I should of noted I'm not saying Obama doesn't have any qualifications, as i think he does I just wanted to introduce a new way of thinking since i didn't see anyone saying anything on that front. I'm interested to hear other's opnions on it.

Nope.  Once again, the method of financing healthcare has absolutely nothing to do with cancer rates.

Not really...cancer rates have more to do with environmental policy or education (such as abt smoking)

Cancer survival rates maybe if the system is good enough to allow for better early detection. The way things have gone that is possibly true since the copay system we now have is preventing some from getting periodic physicals that are as comprehensive as they once were. Personally I think the window is closed right now as far as universal healthcare in the US is concerned. This economic downturn is going to be much worse than many think.

I wasn't impling that 9 out of 10 people are smarter than you.  I'm saying for every one sucessful person that has accomplished what you have, there were 9 other people who didn't make it simply because they happened to not be as lucky.  Startup companies are often longshots.  Isn't it obvious that investors demand very good payouts because they are assuming a lot of risk?  That risk is luck.  This is really basic -- higher risk (luck) needs to provide a higher payout or no one is interested.  After the fact it is easy to pretend that there was never any risk, because hey it turned out well.  But if there wasn't any risk, it would be very easy to get almost infinite investment--i mean who wouldn't invest money in a sure thing?

Of course not, and this scenario has played itself out millions of times. But people seem to ignore that saying "we took a lot of risks when we did X" is the same as saying "we got lucky with X." (not that there is anything wrong with taking risks, but making those risks payoff is not ALL about talent)

So wait, are teachers doers or not?  you seem to contradict yourself here.

I'm confused.  Are you trying to tell me that teachers accomplish things or not? 

Oh I see putting it down as a possibility after knowing that he proved himself more then capable wasn't really saying he was, how'd you put it?  "One of those quota kids."  Why don't you explain what you really meant by saying that.  How could it be a possibility that he is "just a quota kid" if he was in the top 5-20% of his class?  Are you trying to say that he didn't acheive well enought while he was there to prove he could handle it there?  I could understand your comment if you thought he had straight Cs or something, but you already knew he graduated "with great honor." 

Why don't you explain this some more so we can understand the nuance of just suggesting something as a possibility but not really saying it? Do you have evidence of him getting graded easier based on minority status? 

You evoke so much wonderful imagery.  How do you do it?  Keep digging your hole:

INdeed.  As a requirement for graduating the 8th grade, California has (had?) a law that stated all students must pass a test on it.  Given how long they had us study for it (about 4 weeks), by the time the test rolled around, I had already memorized it.  But of course that was when there was only 25 amendments.

No contradiction.  Can you tell the differnce between questions and statements?

Let me guess - reading is not your strong point.  Or do you just think that repeating yourself will prove your point instead of reading what is written?

The question on the table is "Did Obama ACCOMPLISH anything".  So far, we have no proof, and no statements to support an affirmative answer.  Then you jump to the conclusion that it is in fact a fact.  And where did you get that mis-information?

Sure.  When you walk into a doctor's or lawyers office cold - how do you know the competancy of the individual?  You dont.  You can only go on external factors.  What you do know about the real world.  If the doctor or lawyer is a non-minority, you know they did not get special favors to get to where they are.  If they are a minority, you do not know.  So who are you going to trust - someone who made it on their merits?  Or someone who got special favors?

Now, saying that, and the way you like to put words into mouths, I will state further that I am not saying anything about the competancy of any individual.  Nor can you say anything about that doctor or lawyer since you do not know if they are the best, or worst.  You only know the rule stated above.  So who do you trust?

And top of his class?  I went to college where some were Top of their class - of all 12 kids.  And others were at 24th - out of a class of 800.  These are just numbers, but you get the picture.  Graduating top of the class only shows that you can learn, not that you can apply what you learned.  And is not a guarantee of future ACCOMPLISHMENTS (that is what we are talking about, remember?)

You are digging, I am just giving you the shovel.  At least we know you are a good ditch digger, if nothing else.  SO keep digging.  And keep up that good ole boy mentality.  I am sure that network will help you too.  But while you are standing agog at who looks prettiest in a cap and gown, your contemporaries will be out accomplishing things with their education, not wasting it on being impressed by someone who can ace a test in school.

[quote=DrGuy]If the doctor or lawyer is a non-minority, you know they did not get special favors to get to where they are.  If they are a minority, you do not know.  So who are you going to trust - someone who made it on their merits?  Or someone who got special favors?[/quote]

I try to maintain a policy of not feeding the trolls, but this is actually offensive.  I'm Chinese.  I'm at a top technical position in my company.  Do you care to challenge whether I got here on my own merits?

When you see a white person who graduated from UC Irvine, do you question if they got there on their own merits?  (Irvine has an affirmative action scheme in place that favors white kids over Asian ones.)

Earlier in this discussion, Jill and I had this exchange:

[quote=JillUser][quote=pwang]I personally am not a fan of affirmative action, but I am also a minority.  My wife is a female engineer.  We both know the arguments for and against quota systems, but one of the biggest arguments against them is people like you, who will make baseless assertions that a minority could only have been admitted to an Ivy because of affirmative action, or that a female engineer could only have been promoted because she is a woman.[/quote]

I would never do such a thing.  I was a lone female in EE classes myself.[/quote]

Would you like to claim that Jill or my wife possibly "got special favors" to graduate?

I think you owe some people an apology.