If the buff is large enough then there is no real need for a debuff.  My thought is the buff should be BIG, including a health/armor and attack buff.  Again, this forces the demigod to get in the field and keeps the focus on the demigod and them being the center of the game.

The teleport should be reserved for Demigods.  Units should run back.  A slight boost to speed might be good, but the Demigod who took out the General Demigod should get a couple pot shots at the guard creep.

the creeps from a dead general should just become mindless normal creeps having lost their commander

Thats probably the easiest and most sensible approach.

If you do that, you have to allow generals to respawn with a base number in their guard creep or make the creep cheap and quick to respawn.

I would go with the idea that you have your creeps following behind or around you, and attack what you attack or rather everything hostile in sight

Sounds very awesome so far!

The problem with this is that the generals would have no weakness to exploit other than just running over their base (which is the point of the game anyway).  You might as well not have the general.  The way it should work is that the general's strength comes from it's guard creeps, but it has to be on the field, making it vulnerable.

"the creeps from a dead general should just become mindless normal creeps having lost their commander"

Hmmm, so if the five generals on a team bring their full commands down a lane and then all the generals die, the minions will start to act like allied creeps?  Saying early game each general has five creeps (minimum), and each unbuffed creep is as powerful as a minotaur: that's 25 extra minotaurs in one lane you now have to deal with before level 5..Coordinated kamikaze attacks ftw!

And as Trigeminal mentioned, this idea might not work well in a model where minions are valuable, since the general has to replace any minions lost when he respawns, even if he has the ability to recall the ones he had before.  That's more than ok, other models can work, too, but it's good to examine a mechanic in light of the other elements in a given model.

So as I see it we have a few models of direct-control generals going in this thread so far: 

1.  Valuable Minion

a. Generals create/summon each minion (or squad of minions) individually, at some cost and difficulty. 

b. Minions are not easily replaced if killed, but can be classed (scout, warrior, priest, etc.) and upgraded repeatedly. 

c.  Minions may possess individual or group abilities and may synergize with the abilities of their parent DG. 

d.  Upon the death of a general, minions are removed from play (retreat to base, become frozen and indestructible, etc) until general respawns. 

e.  Minions may operate in groups independently from their general, but will be far more effective when the general is close by.  Additionally, general will earn no or partial xp from minion kills when not present. 

2.  Cheap Minion

a.  Generals create/summon minions cheaply and in bulk 

b.  Minions are easily killed and replaced, and if classed or upgradeable - in groups

c.  Minions possess few if any individual abilities, with the possible exception of healer/medics or special units.  Synergies with the parent DG are still possible in this model.

d.  Upon the death of a parent general minions also die or evaporate

e.  minions may operate in groups independent of their general effectively, but are more effective when general is close by.  General will earn no or partial xp for minion kills when not present.

3.  Traditional RTS General

a.  minions are generated by general or barracks, price depending on class/type.  Base minions are very cheap. 

b.  minions are easily killed and replaced on an RPS scheme (archer>swordsman>horseman>archer, etc) and if upgradeable - by class/type

c.  minions have few if any special abilities outside of special classes.  Synergies with parent DG are unlikely in this model

d.  Upon the death of a general, minions are either killed or revert to normal allied creep behavior until general respawns

e.  Minions operate almost entirely independently from the general, who is responsible as a unit for building barracks and other specialized buildings edit: also minions earn xp for generals even when general is far away

[If you guys feel that some elements should be tweaked, deleted, or added for any of the above (or I missed a model completely) please feel free to post it.]

Meantime, I don't see how #3 can ever work in the setting of the game we have now.   It's good, but it just doesn't fit in a game that also incorporates player-character.

I really like # 1, but I could live with # 2.

What do you guys think?

Alright, here's what I think the general should play like. I'm not disagreeing with anyone else's ideas, it's just the way I'd like to see it.

A ) The General has minions, not creeps:

• This means that he controls his own troops, not the rest of the field for his side.
• These creatures spawn at portals at regular intervals and run dirrectly to the general, but there's a max number of troops the general can command at one time.
• The Health/damage level buff assasins can get is instead a max minions/spawn time buff.
• Each general has two ability trees that directly upgrade 2 types of minions, making them stronger or giving them unique attacks.
• The general can command his troops to attack areas, defend areas or return to him (limited functionality, they're how he effect's the battlefieid)
• You can command troops in a wide area, but this area is still limited, so he has to travel in order to effect the battle but doesnt have to be on the front line.
• Once the General dies the minions either die or try to retreat to the spawn point. Turning them into regular creeps means that assasins have very little incentive to engage the general dirrectly.

B ) The Generals skills will effect wide areas:

• His/her remaining skills will be buffs and debuffs that effect ALL units, including other Demigods. This will allow the general to effect the flow on the battle field.
• These abilities will do little to no damage. The generals are not warriors, They're leaders.
• Atleast one of these abilities should be an aura type effect, with a wide field. Encouraging generals to stay SOMEWHAT close to the action.

To summerize, I see the General as a support class. One on one, he cant take on an assasin but his abilities would allow him to easily turn the tide when uncontested or do major damage to another player that's not watching for his creeps. Earlier in the thread there was a player that equated a general to Overlord, I think that's a good sumation. Limited troops that improve as you level and good support skills.

You'll notice I didnt mention costs, that's because I REALLY cant support the 'buying' troops. What if you get a bad start? unlike an Assasin, a general could potentially get screwed up for the rest of the game because he was losing troops to fast. I think this money would be better off being spent on equipment that could improve spawn times, minion health, minion movement speed etc.

I really cant get behind the 'builds spawn points' thing either, personally I think that could get unbalanced or misused somehow. Not EXACTLY sure how, but that's just how I feel.

I think as a special ability for a certain 'General-like' Demigod, placing a permanent or temporary gateway for additional Minions (unique or generic...) would be a very cool ability. Depending also upon the Demigod and balance, it would also be an interesting play mechanic to have the   gateway destroyable like unto a structure, of finite duration, or with the capacity to unleash/summon 'X' number of Minions before dematerializing.

Such would give a limited amount of Minion deployment control to that Demigod. Definitely an ability of a Demigod, not an overall 'General-like' character facility.

That would balance simply by virtue of their killability by Demigods themselves - lots of damage potential in such a small army, but also lots of experience levelling potential for an enemy.

If you are going to deploy masses of Minions, your strategy should be to cause damage to enemy structures and advance strategically across the map, not to level-up your own Demigod so much.

One great inspiration for Generals would be a playstyle similiar to scarifice if someone can remember it.

You could summon minions and give them basic orders and cast Spells on your own, this was great game (*sigh* i wish that there would be a sequel)

 Edit: this brings me to the idea that sacrifice should be on Impulse.

To quote frogboy (aka Brad):

When I first heard of this game (before it was possible to preorder it), I got the impression that it was Warcraft meets Diablo. You would have the assasins who were players who specialized in kicking butt (Diablo), and the generals would be the players who controlled units and built stuff (Warcraft). Reading your comment seems to suggest that these generals are little more than the hero units from warcraft 3, units that often had passive buffs for nearby units, and had often had other group related abilities. They would in no way have the same level command ability that their name would suggest.

So if the generals can't command whats going on, such as improve defenses here, build a few towers there, and train these units; then who does?

While I'm thinking about it, perhaps I should purpose a new type of demigod. Lets call them builders, crafters, or better yet, artificers. These "artificers" will support the war effort by building structures, crafting special equipment and making them available for use by creeps and other demigods, and making special stuff for themselves for when they meet other demigods in battle.

1) Building structures: These demigods can replace lost towers, and creating new ones at tactically significant areas. These are not the temporary ones the rook makes, but rather the kind that remain standing until destroyed. Other buildings might include additional healing crystals (weaker versions), and shops. Stuff on sale might a limited selection of the weaker stuff at the base, or some of the stuff these demigods have been able to make themselves.

Giving some thought on how this would work, an artificer might first create a temporary building. From there, it would spend time, energy, and money to make these temporary structures permanent. These structures might start out weak at first, so this demigod might need to do additional work on the given structures to upgrade them. Given enough time, an artificer may be able to fully replace damaged defences, or make better, upgrade existing defence beyond what they were at the beginning of the game, or even build a new base of sorts some place on the map.

Alternatively, these artificers may need to make a certain base structure first before it could start making other structures. This base structure would allow for the construction of other structures within a set radius (think zerg creep, or undead blight). In addition to allowing the construction of other buildings, they might even empower nearby structures. Of course the radius, and the power of the buffing effect increases as it is upgraded.

2) Map resources: Since these artificer demigods would make things, it might be appropriate to have certain resources on the maps to be capturable (flag capture). When a side has control of certain resources, the artificers of that side can produce new equipment, items, structures and other stuff. With salt peter's (for gunpowder), these demigods could provide some creeps with guns. Adamantine could provide stronger armour and weapons.

Of course, the type of demigod would influence the stuff make able, and their effects. Using the same resources, an alchemist demigod would make guns, while a necromancer might make exploding creeps.

3) Combat: Artificers being crafters would not do as well in combat as assassins for similiar reasons why generals would not. Being crafters, and maker of things, an artificer would probably require some time to build up resources, and other supplies before they can properly equip themselves. This equipment might change the nature of their abilities. An alchemist might normally have alchemist's fire for one of their abilities, but with the resources to make explosive, the alchemist might replace his alchemist's fire with alchemist's bomb, or even with a rocket launcher.

P.S. I did read a previous journal about wanting to keep guns out of this game. Any mention about that stuff was merely used to make a point.

Personally, I'm hoping that generals will not have direct control over units. I think the unique appeal of this game is the focus on the demi-god avatar, and if players start spending large amounts of time/concentration micro-managing units other than the demi-god that the game suffers.

There are a large number of quality games on the market where players win battles by effectively micro-managing an army of 'creeps' (e.g. SC, War3, DoW). If Demigod is going to differentiate itself from these games and succeed by bring something innovative and exciting to the marketplace, it's going to be by delivering a unique player experience that revolves around the Demigod. At the end of the game, players need to feel like it was the Demigod's awesome presence on the battlefield that won the day (not the player's skill-micromanging of a horde of insignificant units).

I understand that generals need to deliver a different experience than assassins, but I think this can be accomplished by allowing the general to give high-level commands to his creeps and giving the general buff/de-buff style abilities that reward him for being in the right place on the battlefield at the right time. Personally, I really liked the idea of allowing the general to plant rally flags (to pull creeps towards a certain position) and allowing the general to set a basic stance/formation/rule-of-engagement for certain creeps.

In any case, here's hoping for a exciting and un-matched player experience and years of enjoyable game-play!

Are we there yet? 

/pant pant