Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Published on December 14, 2008 By Draginol In Politics

I'm not personally into guns but I am a strong believer in the right for citizens to legally purchase pretty much any type of precision target weapon (i.e. guns).

One of the strawman arguments I hear often is "Why not let people have nukes then?" and the reason is that the constitution intended citizens to bear arms -- specifically weapons that have a relatively high degree of precision.  Explosives, canons, etc. are not precision weapons.

Now before someone gets hung up on the above paragraph and starts naming various non-gun weapons that are arguably precise let me get to the meat of this discussion:

Guns are the great equalizer.  Societies in which citizens have few guns also tend to have more crime when comparing similar demographics. Gun opponents tend to fixate at overall crime rates or cherry pick types of crime ("gun violence") but when you compare apples and apples (like two middle class families in the US or UK) you find that the society that has guns tends to suffer less from crime.

That's because criminals have to think twice before doing a home invasion.  Home invasion, in Britain, is relatively common. Former Beatle George Harrison was attacked in his home by an intruder and severely injured.  In the US, home invasions are very rare because the would-be intruder never knows when the residents might be armed.

I don't want to have to rely on a benevolent government for all my protection. I expect to have the right to defend myself and my family -- with lethal force if necessary.

Certainly, there are a few nuts out there and some of them (not many but some) do purchase their weapons legally. But that's going to be true with anything. More people die due to cars and alcohol and I don't think we're going to be outlawing those things any time soon either.

Update: 

As if to help prove my point...

Found on this blog today:

An intended rape victim shot and killed her attacker this morning in Cape Girardeau when he broke into her home to rape her a second time, police said.

The 57-year-old woman shot Ronnie W. Preyer, 47, a registered sex offender, in the chest with a shotgun when he broke through her locked basement door.

The woman told police he was the same man who raped her several days earlier. Officials do not intend to seek charges against her.

In the first incident, the woman heard glass breaking in her basement about midnight on Saturday. She went to leave the house, and the man attacked when she opened the front door. He punched her in the face and then forced her into a bedroom, where he raped her, said H. Morley Swingle, prosecuting attorney in Cape Girardeau County.

The victim reported the crime to police, and her landlord repaired the broken window.

She was home alone again Friday about 2:15 a.m. when Preyer broke the same basement window. The victim was awake watching television, when Preyer switched off the electricity to her house.

She tried to call 911, but couldn’t because the power was off. She got a shotgun and waited as the man began banging on the basement door. She fired when Preyer came crashing through the door. When Preyer collapsed, the woman escaped and went to a neighbor’s home, where she called police. Officers, who arrived within a minute, found a bleeding Preyer stumbling away from the house. He was taken to St. Francis Medical Center, where he died several hours later.

Swingle said the victim identified Preyer as the attacker in both incidents. Preyer, of Jackson, Mo., had wet caulking from the recently repaired basement window on his clothing when he was shot.

“I will not be filing any sort of charge against this 57-year-old woman, who was clearly justified under the law in shooting this intruder in her home,” Swingle said.

Thank God we haven't given the government the ability to take our guns.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Dec 15, 2008

Arguments that guns protect against a malicious state are a bit redundant considering how incredibly sophisticated military weaponry is compared to civilian varieties.

I think people are more concerned about something like  a "national security force" type problem. Especially one that will be " just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." as the military. 

on Dec 15, 2008

Feel free to try "upgrading" those into fissile Uranium and let me know how that goes.

You mean they do not come with upgrade protection?

To the serious.  Nheer and CesaersGhost apparently read the title and skimmed the article because they missed the point.  Brad was not arguing about gun statistics.  He conceded that societies that have guns have higher rates of gun crimes.  His point, and one that is easily demonstrable (google is your friend) is the reprecussions of anti-gun laws on the modus operandi of criminals.  George Harrison not withstanding (there are loonies in every bin), the fact remains that gun contol societies have a lot higher incidence of home invasion, than do Gun Societies.  It is simple logic.

Most of the gun crimes in the US bear this out.  They are committed on the streets, where an ambush or quick scan (sometimes faulty - remember Death Wish) gives the criminal all the information he needs to know concerning the possession (or lack there of) of a firearm.  Behind closed doors is another thing entirely - Superman only exists in comic books.

His point is that he would rather trust himself to protect his family than the local constabulary.  And again, statistics are in agreement with him.  While the police is most cities, even the US, are hard working dedicated people that respond quickly to calls, the fact they are not there when the criminal is, means you have a period of time to fend for yourself.

Do you want to do it with a loud mouth?  Or a 45?

on Dec 15, 2008

Arguments that guns protect against a malicious state are a bit redundant considering how incredibly sophisticated military weaponry is compared to civilian varieties.

Actually no.  As we have seen in Iraq - it is one thing to conquer a nation.  It is another to subdue the local populace.  Stealth Bombers and Smart bombs work very well against armed fortifications and armies, but not against an armed citizenry.

on Dec 15, 2008

If we break it down to a per-100,000 rating for regions, which removes the population from the equation, the UK has 1.4 murders per 100,000 people. For comparison, the US has 5.5. Canada has a rate of 1.7. If guns make society safer, why is the USA's murder rate so relatively high?

What definition of "murder" is used in the statistics? I have heard that the US consider every unexplained death a "murder" for the purpose of statistics, while the UK consider as a "murder" only those unexplained deaths that were later shown to have been murders.

I don't know about Canada.

It's also possible that gun control simply works better on smaller islands (Great Britain and Ireland) than on a country with land borders and very long sea borders. I can imagine that it is more difficult to smuggle guns into the UK than into the US. (And it is presumably also more difficult to smuggle guns from the US into Canada than from Mexico or the coast.)

 

on Dec 15, 2008

I can understand when people need weapons to feel safe but this "guns are needed to claim civil rights against government" is a bit strange considering two of the most successful revolutions of the 20th century had been accomplished by being peaceful: India and eastern Germany.  People chanted "no violence" and it worked;

Yes and no...

Violent revolutions rarely improved anything. The American revolution was an exception, not the rule. It was generally better to leave the government alone rather than replace it violently.

Most fascist (and communist) dictatorships have been the result of armed uprisings against the previous governments. So Europeans and Americans perhaps have a different idea of what an armed uprising means for the country. The last armed uprising in Germany were the Freikorps and SA beinging down the Weimar Republic  (which succeeded) and before that the armed uprising by communists against first the Kaiser and then the Weimar Republic (they failed).

Peaceful revolutions work if the authority is as moral as the revolutionaries. It worked with the British in India because Ghandi had a history of being a loyal subject (he campaigned for Indians to support Britain in her wars) and because his cause was just and seen as just by the British public. It worked in East-Germany because the East-German dictatorship didn't have the guts to act without Soviet approval and Gorbatchev was not the type for gunning down people. If East-Germany had reacted violently, the Soviet Union was likely to put a stop to it and replace the entire government by force anyway, so giving in was the better way for everyone but the highest functionaries.

Romania was not as lucky; but it wasn't an armed populace that fought the revolution, but the army (the opponent was the communist secret police).

 

I don't even want to imagine what the Communist Parties of Russia and Eastern Germany had done if there had been 70000 gun-wielding demonstrants on 9th october 1989 in Leipzig.

Considering Germany's hostory such gun-wielding protesters would likely have been Nazis or communists. Germany's (small-r) republicans and monarchists never protested violently. Normal Germans tend to accept authority, not question it. Most Germans are normal, only a minority are fascists or communists and only those two groups have a tendency to wield guns against the government. (Gun control laws keep them under control.)

 

 

 

on Dec 15, 2008

Arguments that guns protect against a malicious state are a bit redundant considering how incredibly sophisticated military weaponry is compared to civilian varieties.

This is problematic.

Guns worked very well in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Presumably Germany didn't want to flatten the entire region.

But on the other hand, guns in Nazi Germany were freely available to law-abiding citizens, just like in the US. The problem was not gun control, but the definition of "law-abiding citizen", which didn't include Jews. Hence the Jews were technically criminals and had to get guns like other criminals. (And we know criminals can always get guns and gun control doesn't affect them, right?)

I am worried about another aspect in the "guns protect civil rights" argument. In my experience (taken from history books, from what my parents told me about Germany's history etc.) civil rights can never be protected by guns because the reason civil rights go away is that somebody used guns to take power and was supported by a majority (or very large minority) of the people anyway.

Far from using guns to stop Nazi terror, Germans with guns helped the Nazis into power. I'm not sure I want to trust those same people to protect anybody's civil rights. The Weimar Republic government used those people (the Freikorps) against the communists, and successfully so. But in the long run protesters with guns were Germany's downfall rather than her safety net.

It is quite possible that this will be totally different in the US; but I doubt it. If anything what will happen is that some liberal idiot (like Obama) will do something deemed unconstitutional by the militia nuts and they will attack and lose. And if they should win, the new government will be against gun control, for the constitution, for American values, and also the worst dictatorship that has ever existed in north-America; because the values of someone rarely dictate his attitude towards those who don't share the same interpretations of those values.

 

on Dec 15, 2008

cactoblasta
"An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject."If your AK47 can't take down a stealth bomber, you'll never win against the US state if it decides to put you down.Arguments that guns protect against a malicious state are a bit redundant considering how incredibly sophisticated military weaponry is compared to civilian varieties.

Don't need to shoot it down mate, just take its base.   Aircraft dont win wars the infantry do,  everything esle is just support for the infantry.  Sophictcated millitry might can be beaten by much lesser technologies.

Besides if the legally armed part of the US desides to revolt against the government, a large percent of the military would side with it,  since its THIER families that are revolting.

on Dec 15, 2008

Besides if the legally armed part of the US desides to revolt against the government, a large percent of the military would side with it,  since its THEIR families that are revolting.

Yes, that's what happened in Germany in the early 1930s.

 

on Dec 15, 2008

Yes, that's what happened in Germany in the early 1930s. 

Germany did not have an open civil/revolutionary war.  Anyways  you can't expect a people how have been told what to do for so long to self-govern responsibly so soon.  The 13 colonies governed themselves for a long time bofre its revolution.

on Dec 15, 2008

If we break it down to a per-100,000 rating for regions, which removes the population from the equation, the UK has 1.4 murders per 100,000 people. For comparison, the US has 5.5. Canada has a rate of 1.7. If guns make society safer, why is the USA's murder rate so relatively high?

My blog was fairly short and yet some people lack the reading comprehension of even that.

Which part of:

Societies in which citizens have few guns also tend to have more crime when comparing similar demographics. Gun opponents tend to fixate at overall crime rates or cherry pick types of crime ("gun violence") but when you compare apples and apples (like two middle class families in the US or UK) you find that the society that has guns tends to suffer less from crime.

Compare the murder rate of middle class America with middle class UK or Canada and you'll find that they're roughly the same but that the CRIME rate is much higher in the UK (I don't know Canada's middle class crime rate though).

It's not politically correct to talk about but it's the elephant in the room but the US has huge popuations of minorities which very much bias the overall results. I won't pretend I know why that is the case only that it is.

There is no UK equivalent of say Detroit or Flint or heck Washington DC in terms of crime and it has nothing to do with guns or what have you.

on Dec 15, 2008

Germany did not have an open civil/revolutionary war. 

No, but it did have armed citizens opposing the government. And it worked.

You might not want to call it a revolution, but the socialist MPs who were forcibly removed from parliament certainly saw it differently.

 

on Dec 15, 2008

It's not politically correct to talk about but it's the elephant in the room but the US has huge popuations of minorities which very much bias the overall results. I won't pretend I know why that is the case only that it is.

Perhaps you simply have many nutters in your population. Can happen...

 

on Dec 15, 2008

Germany did not have an open civil/revolutionary war. No, but it did have armed citizens opposing the government. And it worked.You might not want to call it a revolution, but the socialist MPs who were forcibly removed from parliament certainly saw it differently. 

It is not I that doesnt call it a revolution but history.   It is you who wish to rewrite the history books to suit your own agenda.

Calling it a revolution because most Germans were scared to actual stand up to Hitler is like when someone who is afraid of a mouse calling it a wharf rat. 

With Hitler never getting a majorty vote the way I see it there should have been a revolt, against Hitler, but it didnt happen, because they allowed their fear to control them.  But revolutions are BAD right Leaki?

on Dec 15, 2008

It is not I that doesnt call it a revolution but history.   It is you who wish to rewrite the history books to suit your own agenda.

Yeah, right, it my "agenda" that makes me point out that the armed thugs in Germany were the Nazis and that the Nazis took power by force (namely by forcing opposition MPs not to attend sessions, also by burning down synagogues and Jewish homes and shops).

It's all my "agenda", nothing of it happened.

The Freikorps never did try to get the Nazis into power and the Nazis never got into power. All thanks to guns.

 

Calling it a revolution because most Germans were scared to actual stand up to Hitler is like when someone who is afraid of a mouse calling it a wharf rat. 

Yes, but the SA and Freikorps were not afraid to stand up to the Weimar Republic government.

 

With Hitler never getting a majorty vote the way I see it there should have been a revolt, against Hitler, but it didnt happen, because they allowed their fear to control them.  But revolutions are BAD right Leaki?

As I said before, the only people in Germany willing to revolt violently were fascists and communists. Both were fighting the Weimar Republic government in the 1920s and the fascists finally won in the 1930s.

And yes, the vast majority of revolutions are bad.

Especially that one.

You don't want to call it a revolution; but when armed thugs take over government buildings and put MPs into prison illegally, that's what a revolution is. And no, it didn't help that they had guns.

 

 

 

 

on Dec 15, 2008

Draginol


If we break it down to a per-100,000 rating for regions, which removes the population from the equation, the UK has 1.4 murders per 100,000 people. For comparison, the US has 5.5. Canada has a rate of 1.7. If guns make society safer, why is the USA's murder rate so relatively high?
My blog was fairly short and yet some people lack the reading comprehension of even that.
Which part of:
Societies in which citizens have few guns also tend to have more crime when comparing similar demographics. Gun opponents tend to fixate at overall crime rates or cherry pick types of crime ("gun violence") but when you compare apples and apples (like two middle class families in the US or UK) you find that the society that has guns tends to suffer less from crime.
Compare the murder rate of middle class America with middle class UK or Canada and you'll find that they're roughly the same but that the CRIME rate is much higher in the UK (I don't know Canada's middle class crime rate though).
It's not politically correct to talk about but it's the elephant in the room but the US has huge popuations of minorities which very much bias the overall results. I won't pretend I know why that is the case only that it is.
There is no UK equivalent of say Detroit or Flint or heck Washington DC in terms of crime and it has nothing to do with guns or what have you.

When you're talking about guns, calling gun crimes "cherry-picking" is frankly ridiculous. Also, while petty crimes may be lower in the US, murders and other high-violence crimes are lower in the UK or Canada. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my home broken into and have some guy steal my possessions than be shot at. Canada and the UK also have minorities, and the minority rate is often higher in many places in Canada than the States, so that argument doesn't really fly. And I know that London's visible minority rate is extremely high (their electronic parking meters, for example, are in something like 8 languages, as far as I've heard). 

No, there is no UK equivalent of those cities – I'd say the question is why the US has such violent cities.

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