Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Published on December 14, 2008 By Draginol In Politics

I'm not personally into guns but I am a strong believer in the right for citizens to legally purchase pretty much any type of precision target weapon (i.e. guns).

One of the strawman arguments I hear often is "Why not let people have nukes then?" and the reason is that the constitution intended citizens to bear arms -- specifically weapons that have a relatively high degree of precision.  Explosives, canons, etc. are not precision weapons.

Now before someone gets hung up on the above paragraph and starts naming various non-gun weapons that are arguably precise let me get to the meat of this discussion:

Guns are the great equalizer.  Societies in which citizens have few guns also tend to have more crime when comparing similar demographics. Gun opponents tend to fixate at overall crime rates or cherry pick types of crime ("gun violence") but when you compare apples and apples (like two middle class families in the US or UK) you find that the society that has guns tends to suffer less from crime.

That's because criminals have to think twice before doing a home invasion.  Home invasion, in Britain, is relatively common. Former Beatle George Harrison was attacked in his home by an intruder and severely injured.  In the US, home invasions are very rare because the would-be intruder never knows when the residents might be armed.

I don't want to have to rely on a benevolent government for all my protection. I expect to have the right to defend myself and my family -- with lethal force if necessary.

Certainly, there are a few nuts out there and some of them (not many but some) do purchase their weapons legally. But that's going to be true with anything. More people die due to cars and alcohol and I don't think we're going to be outlawing those things any time soon either.

Update: 

As if to help prove my point...

Found on this blog today:

An intended rape victim shot and killed her attacker this morning in Cape Girardeau when he broke into her home to rape her a second time, police said.

The 57-year-old woman shot Ronnie W. Preyer, 47, a registered sex offender, in the chest with a shotgun when he broke through her locked basement door.

The woman told police he was the same man who raped her several days earlier. Officials do not intend to seek charges against her.

In the first incident, the woman heard glass breaking in her basement about midnight on Saturday. She went to leave the house, and the man attacked when she opened the front door. He punched her in the face and then forced her into a bedroom, where he raped her, said H. Morley Swingle, prosecuting attorney in Cape Girardeau County.

The victim reported the crime to police, and her landlord repaired the broken window.

She was home alone again Friday about 2:15 a.m. when Preyer broke the same basement window. The victim was awake watching television, when Preyer switched off the electricity to her house.

She tried to call 911, but couldn’t because the power was off. She got a shotgun and waited as the man began banging on the basement door. She fired when Preyer came crashing through the door. When Preyer collapsed, the woman escaped and went to a neighbor’s home, where she called police. Officers, who arrived within a minute, found a bleeding Preyer stumbling away from the house. He was taken to St. Francis Medical Center, where he died several hours later.

Swingle said the victim identified Preyer as the attacker in both incidents. Preyer, of Jackson, Mo., had wet caulking from the recently repaired basement window on his clothing when he was shot.

“I will not be filing any sort of charge against this 57-year-old woman, who was clearly justified under the law in shooting this intruder in her home,” Swingle said.

Thank God we haven't given the government the ability to take our guns.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Dec 16, 2008

and the minority rate is often higher in many places in Canada than the States,

Where?  And then lets compare crime rates. 

But again you miss the point.  Brad has conceded the gun violence and statistics.  You have not even touched on his contention - Home invasion.  I gather you have never been shot at or been robbed in your home.  I hope you never have to decide based upon experience - what is worse.

on Dec 16, 2008

When you're talking about guns, calling gun crimes "cherry-picking" is frankly ridiculous. Also, while petty crimes may be lower in the US, murders and other high-violence crimes are lower in the UK or Canada. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my home broken into and have some guy steal my possessions than be shot at. Canada and the UK also have minorities, and the minority rate is often higher in many places in Canada than the States, so that argument doesn't really fly. And I know that London's visible minority rate is extremely high (their electronic parking meters, for example, are in something like 8 languages, as far as I've heard). 

No, there is no UK equivalent of those cities – I'd say the question is why the US has such violent cities.

Bolded part: Bullshit.

Canada: Asian + African + Arab: ~6%

UK: Black + Indian + Pakistani: ~5%

If you look at the crime rate -- violent or otherwise of Americans of European descent and Canadians and UK it's basically the same across the way other than in the area of burglaries and rapes which are significantly higher per 100,000 in UK and Canada.

That is what we call comparing apples and apples.

 

 

on Dec 16, 2008

Your position is more relevant to every household should be equipped with burglar alarms than handguns. The stats are stacked because it is common knowledge that the US--with the exception perhaps of some rogue states--has the most violent crime because guns are readily available to criminals whereas the vast majority are without arms. Until it is mandated that every citizen carries a handgun, I suspect, we are left with your favorite word: choice

on Dec 16, 2008

Draginol


When you're talking about guns, calling gun crimes "cherry-picking" is frankly ridiculous. Also, while petty crimes may be lower in the US, murders and other high-violence crimes are lower in the UK or Canada. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my home broken into and have some guy steal my possessions than be shot at. Canada and the UK also have minorities, and the minority rate is often higher in many places in Canada than the States, so that argument doesn't really fly. And I know that London's visible minority rate is extremely high (their electronic parking meters, for example, are in something like 8 languages, as far as I've heard). 
No, there is no UK equivalent of those cities – I'd say the question is why the US has such violent cities.
Bolded part: Bullshit.
Canada: Asian + African + Arab: ~6%
UK: Black + Indian + Pakistani: ~5%
If you look at the crime rate -- violent or otherwise of Americans of European descent and Canadians and UK it's basically the same across the way other than in the area of burglaries and rapes which are significantly higher per 100,000 in UK and Canada.
That is what we call comparing apples and apples.
 

I noticed you conveniently didn't include the US minority population. After checking the CIA factbook (which seems like the same resource you used), I find that it's Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%. Which kicks it up to about 5.5% (link). So, a little more than the UK, and a little less than Canada. However, I won't include Alaskan native, because you didn't include Canadian natives, which knocks the figure back to about 4.5%. Which is now less than both the UK and Canada. Which un-bullshits my bullshit.

After checking this list of rapes per capita, indeed Canada is higher than the US. However, the UK is lower than the US. So your argument is half correct.

Also, I have said before – the murder rate in the US is higher than in Canada and the UK. This is fact. I didn't bother checking the burglary rate because, and I have said this twice before, I'd rather have some stuff taken from me than being killed.

I also fail to see the psychological spin you're trying to put on it. You're saying that criminals have to think twice before entering a home because the owners may have a gun. But since having a gun is a right protected in the Constitution, it's relatively easy for a criminal to get a gun as well.

 

 

on Dec 16, 2008



and the minority rate is often higher in many places in Canada than the States,
Where?  And then lets compare crime rates. 
But again you miss the point.  Brad has conceded the gun violence and statistics.  You have not even touched on his contention - Home invasion.  I gather you have never been shot at or been robbed in your home.  I hope you never have to decide based upon experience - what is worse.

I have continually stated that I'd rather have some material possessions taken from me than be shot.

on Dec 16, 2008

I noticed you conveniently didn't include the US minority population. After checking the CIA factbook (which seems like the same resource you used), I find that it's Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%. Which kicks it up to about 5.5% (link).

black 12.85%

I cannot imagine how you managed to overlook that given that you saw the other numbers.

The text then concludes with "about 15.1% of the total US population is Hispanic".

That's about 80% whites and 20% minorities. Plus nearly 20% of the 80% are another minority (hispanics). This puts the total to 35% minority.

 

 

on Dec 16, 2008

I noticed you conveniently didn't include the US minority population. After checking the CIA factbook (which seems like the same resource you used), I find that it's Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%. Which kicks it up to about 5.5%

Um, you missed black and hispanic - which pushes the total to almost 30% (if not already at that).  What were you thinking of?

And I take it you never have been robbed or raped.  Well, at least you have not been murdered.

on Dec 16, 2008

I won't deny minorities are overrepresented in that crimes, but even if you exclude them it is way above those of other industrialized countries, so taking that as explanation is a bit cheap (and won't solve the problem either) as it doesn't explain why the murder rate of non-hispanic whites (3 per 100.000) is two to three times higher than in other industrialized countries. I am not saying that would go down with stricter gun control, the world would be a better place if it was so easy to just change a single parameter, but saying "its only/mainly the minorities - not us" doesn't solve problems.

France has about 9% muslims and about 3 to 5% non-muslim blacks and yet they don't have high murder rate just occasional riots.

Most european countries don't count their own citizen as minorities btw

on Dec 16, 2008

I noticed you conveniently didn't include the US minority population. After checking the CIA factbook (which seems like the same resource you used), I find that it's Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%. Which kicks it up to about 5.5% (link). So, a little more than the UK, and a little less than Canada. However, I won't include Alaskan native, because you didn't include Canadian natives, which knocks the figure back to about 4.5%. Which is now less than both the UK and Canada. Which un-bullshits my bullshit.

Are you high?

Black represents 13% and they're (CIA) counting Hispanics as white which are another 14% of the population.

Are you really that unfamiliar with the United States?

on Dec 16, 2008

I won't deny minorities are overrepresented in that crimes, but even if you exclude them it is way above those of other industrialized countries, so taking that as explanation is a bit cheap (and won't solve the problem either) as it doesn't explain why the murder rate of non-hispanic whites (3 per 100.000) is two to three times higher than in other industrialized countries. I am not saying that would go down with stricter gun control, the world would be a better place if it was so easy to just change a single parameter, but saying "its only/mainly the minorities - not us" doesn't solve problems.

False. If you balance just Euro-Americans vs. Europeans it's about the same. That's the point. Where are you getting your stats?

Gun violence in the US amongst whites is - surprise surprise - about the same as it is amongst Canadians despite Canada's stricter gun control.

Making guns illegal in the US would do nothing about violent crime because, by definition, criminals break the law and guns are readily available illegally here.

In the UK, where gun violence between whites is about the same as it is here, they have the added bonus of home invasions and burglaries.

 

on Dec 16, 2008

Draginol


I noticed you conveniently didn't include the US minority population. After checking the CIA factbook (which seems like the same resource you used), I find that it's Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%. Which kicks it up to about 5.5% (link). So, a little more than the UK, and a little less than Canada. However, I won't include Alaskan native, because you didn't include Canadian natives, which knocks the figure back to about 4.5%. Which is now less than both the UK and Canada. Which un-bullshits my bullshit.
Are you high?
Black represents 13% and they're (CIA) counting Hispanics as white which are another 14% of the population.
Are you really that unfamiliar with the United States?

Really mature, Brad ("are you high?"). Don't you know that the first rule of debating is to never launch the personal attacks? Canada also has a "mixed background" category which accounts for 26% – that includes asian/white, black/white, black/asian, and all sorts of other wonderful combinations. I did actually miss the black count on the US page (my bad), but excluding that 26% from Canada was your bad. Any way you cut it, that's a lot that you missed.

Also, you've updated the original post with an article (a single article!) about guns being the saviour. Now, if you read my first post, you'd note that I'm not in favour of the removal of guns from people. They're great for all sorts of killing/defense duties. What I did say was that all owners should have a gun safe and keep their weapons locked up until needed. The gun that the woman used could have easily been in the hands of the rapist instead of hers.



And I take it you never have been robbed or raped.  Well, at least you have not been murdered.

I've been robbed. I had a friend who was shot and killed. I know which is worse, and it definitely isn't losing my TV, DVD player, stereo, etc.

on Dec 17, 2008

Really mature, Brad ("are you high?"). Don't you know that the first rule of debating is to never launch the personal attacks?

I assume Brad found it insulting that you would misquote the CIA world factbook at him.

Also, the sentence "I noticed you conveniently didn't include the US minority population" was meant as a sarcastic remark, wasn't it?

on Dec 17, 2008

Most european countries don't count their own citizen as minorities btw

Most European countries have immigration policies that don't make it easy for those minorities to become citizens.

I find it rather sarcastic to use European xenophobia as an argument against the US.

Question: "Is there racism in the Soviet Union?"

Radio Erivan: "No. We don't have any negroes."

 

on Dec 17, 2008

"We have no gay people in Russia - there are homosexuals but they are not allowed to be gay about it. The punishment is seven years locked in prison with other men and there is a three-year waiting list for that."

Yakov Smirnoff

on Dec 17, 2008

Really mature, Brad ("are you high?"). Don't you know that the first rule of debating is to never launch the personal attacks? Canada also has a "mixed background" category which accounts for 26% – that includes asian/white, black/white, black/asian, and all sorts of other wonderful combinations. I did actually miss the black count on the US page (my bad), but excluding that 26% from Canada was your bad. Any way you cut it, that's a lot that you missed.

Okay, you're an idiot. You should go away now and let the adults talk.

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