Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.

After reading the book One Second After we had an interesting discussion over on JoeUser about the subject.

One user said that humans had adapted and were far too enlightened today to revert to violence and mayhem in the absence of our modern conveniences.

So let’s walk through the EMP scenario:

Day 1: July Year 200x

5 container ships in the gulf of Mexico fire medium range SCUD missiles high into the atmosphere until it reaches far above Kansas and other states.  On board are 45KT nuclear warhead.  It explodes creating EMP that takes out all of the integrated circuits in the United States.

That means anything electronic that hasn’t been hardened is going to be ruined.  That means your computers, TVs, cars, home electronics, breaker box, phones, radios, cell phones. It also means the power companies, their generators, the backup generators at hospitals, nursing homes, etc.

All of the farms and their harvesting equipment is dead. The trucks that move food to the cities are ruined. The trains that move freight around the country are inoperable.

Every airplane flying crashes. All planes on the down are ruined.

The only thing working are US conventional forces that happened to be hardened against EMP (which means quite a few of them).  Some cars stored in underground parking garages would probably work depending on the proximity. 

There’s no fall out. Nobody dies from the attack directly.

Day 2:

With power out people’s fridges are DOA.  With no working cars, people don’t go to work. In the country and in the suburbs, people take the food out of their refrigerators and freezers before it “goes bad” and have BBQs. It’s a fun time.

People who were driving somewhere are mostly able to make it to town. A few people die of heat stroke on their journeys. In the deep south, particularly Florida, there are a number of deaths due to the heat since air conditioning is out.

In the cities, looting begins quite quickly. The police can’t do much since they’re on foot or on horse.

We know this sort of thing because we have seen what happens during extended power outages. Of course, in those cases cars, cell phones, and other crucial devices still worked but there was still massive looting in the large cities.

Day 3:

Local agencies really don’t know what’s going on since there is no communication. No cell phones. No radio. No land lines. The grid is gone.  There are spare parts but no where near enough to fix it all and because of the nature of the electrical grid, all the holes have to be plugged for the juice to flow again.  And even if they had enough parts, how do they transport them? No trucks. No cars. 

International relief from Japan, China, Canada (though most of Canada is taken out too), Mexico, Europe begins but it’ll be slow going. Food shipments can reach the coast in a couple of days but getting it inland will be a major problem as the vehicles will have to be transported in along with parts to try to get the railroads working again (along with teams to get dead trains off the rails).

In the subs, the party is over. It ain’t funny now.  People are finishing off what was in their refrigerator. Most people still have some food in the cupboard.

Stores start rationing their supplies. People are still using money (at least, those who keep cash). A bottle of water is $20.  How much cash do you keep in your house?

In the cities, riots have broken out with widespread destruction. Being July, it’s hot and dry. Fires from the riots start to spread.

End of Week 1:

By now, most people in the subs have run out of food they would normally remotely consider eating. Looting at the local Walmart and grocery stores begins as people simply take what they need.

Remember, people aren’t hearing anything from the authorities. There are no working TVs. No working radios. The handful of police are walking in the subs. 

If you live in the suburbs, take a close look around. How would the police reasonably patrol your city without cars?

Meanwhile, people in nursing homes have started dying enmasse. Without refrigeration drugs quickly go bad. Anyone requiring help breathing or anything else has already died.

People with type 1 diabetes are starting to see the writing on the wall.

Meanwhile, the first container ships of relief have reached San Francisco, Seattle, LA, San Diego, Houston, Miami, Boston, NY, Washington, Raleigh. Lots of food, medicine, some parts, lots of vehicles.

Unfortunately most of those cities are in utter pandemonium. In the south, tens of thousands have already died from heat.  In 2003, when there was a heat wave in France, 14800 people died. They didn’t lose power, they just didn’t have air conditioning.  In Florida, the death toll is skyrocketing quickly. Same in most of the other southern states.

End of Week 2:

People are starting to die of dysentery from eating bad food, drinking bad water. Many have left the suburbs to head to rural areas where they think there is food (they’re wrong, harvest won’t happen for months, industrialized food processing involves a lot of transportation between the farms and the slaughter houses).

The typical American family, now out of food and with no access to clean water is starting to get pretty desperate.

What? Only 2 weeks? How much food do you have in your house right now? Go check. I’ll wait….

Okay back? So how much is in your pantry? How long would it last you? If you knew at the start, you might have rationed it better. But you didn’t. 

Millions of Americans are wishing they had put those steaks and hamburgers and hotdogs in their basements in the cooler temperatures. Others are wishing they had salted them heavily and cooked them well done to store for the long haul.

In the cities on the coast, power is restored via backup generators relatively close to shore. However, within 10 miles from the harbor, death is everywhere.  Don’t agree?

Ever been to San Francisco? LA? New York City? 14 days have passed. Where would you have gone? The smart ones, who are able to, would have found their way to the harbors and waited for air lifts of food and such. But most would probably not think about that.

Meanwhile, armed thugs are starting to systematically go through every building and house looking and taking what they need.

End of Week 3

Starvation is starting to become a real problem. If your local law enforcement had a clue, they had already gotten themselves and helpful citizens around to the stores to gather up supplies to start rationing it.

At this point, martial law has been declared by any competent city government.  Some cities decide that, for the public good of course, that all community food will be collected and distributed equally to everyone. In other places, large armed mobs are violently taking what is needed to survive.

Are you a survivalist? Got all your supplies right? Got MREs in the basement. You have an AK47 that you managed to get quietly at a gun show. Your kids know how to use the two shot guns. You’ve been prepared for this day right?  Great. You’re about to die.

You see, you might be able to keep a few people away. But word got around that you have supplies because you’re that guy who everyone knew was expecting to “bug out” one day when the government and black helicopters came.  You might be able to take out a few people but 200+ Nope. You’re going to take a lot of them out but they’re going to come in, kill you, your family, and your supplies.

What? Don’t agree? People won’t do that? Again: Other than on the coast (in some major cities near harbors anyway) you’ve heard and seen nothing from the government other than the occasional Black Hawk flying around. No TV. No phones. No radios. 

A few people have managed to dig up old HAM radios and they are getting distant broadcasts of reassurance but it’s clear that nothing’s coming any time soon if you live significantly inland, especially if you don’t live in a densely populated area.

It’s triage at this point and the rural and suburbs areas are simply too spread out. Unfortunately, in the cities, fires have consumed much of them. Anyone strong enough to get out of there has which further distributes the population.

A few older cars start showing up again on the roads as collectables and just old junkers are fixed up and are able to drive because they didn’t have electronics in them.

End of the first month:

A network of outposts are re-established in most large and medium sized cities. Medium sized cities are faring a bit better. Kalamazoo Michigan, Santa Cruz California, and other cities of this kind are doing okay now as convoys are starting to show up.

Really large cities away from the coast are dead at this point.  Sorry Omaha, there’s nobody home anymore.

The Second Month:

Now is when the death toll really starts to go up.  First, you have about 5% of the population that was on medication to control their mental states. This is now gone.  They will mostly die off this month or take out a few others in the process.

Nearly everyone with Type 1 diabetes has died.

Virtually who requires assisted care at this point has died.

Millions of children under 2 have died. Why? Do you have any children? If you’re not nursing them, how are you feeding them at this point?

There are not many domesticated dogs left that haven’t been freed by owners.

The number of deer left that are near people has diminished to the point of being difficult to find. Same with geese, ground hogs, rabbits, etc.

Most cities of any decent size now have an outpost re-established with convoys of food now arriving. However, it’s starting to become a real problem because, well it turns out that the US and Canada supply a significant chunk of the world’s food. 47% of the world’s Soy beans are produced in the United States. 86% of the world’s corn. The bulk of the world’s wheat. 

It’s during this second month that the food shipments to the United States are going to start to dry up as hunger starts to become a significant problem in China, Japan, and other countries that have to import food. The US and Canada make up 20% of the world’s food exports and if you count only basic foods the percentage nearly doubles. 

The world has its first universal consensus: Oh shit.

It’s at about this time that those who were celebrating in the streets about the downfall of the great satan are starting to get the first thought that yes, they’re going to die too. North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, and many other countries are about to see starvation on a level that has never been seen before.

By contrast, Europe is doing okay. Not great. But okay. Their economies are in ruins but they’re not going to die enmasse. 

In Japan, where starvation is a serious concern, they and Korea have enough money to pay top dollar for the dwindling import food supply. Russia, unfortunately, is about to have a very rough year.

Needless to say, the food aid shipments to the United States are starting to dwindle. Western Europe, particularly Great Britain, Spain, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Netherlands are still sending food shipments.

If you’re on the East coast in a secure area, you’re in good shape.  If you’re on the west coast, most of you are going to die.

Third Month:

The population of the United States is starting to take on the same appearance it did in 1909.

Here is what it looked like in the year 2000.

8% of the poulation was over 70.  Nearly all of them have died.

3% of the population is under 4.  Nearly all of them have died.

Urban populations of the United States have had staggering death tolls, particularly those not near the coasts.

Anyone requiring medication that needed to be refrigerated in order to live (anti-rejection drugs, insulin, various heart medications, for instance) has died. Easily 10% of the population on top of the above.

Around 20% of the population has starved.

Another 10% in the south who are living in places that were uninhabitable without modern technology have died.  Think LA is nice? Imagine it without water.  Any water.

In fact, if you live in California, take a look around. Where does your water come from?  Most of the population of Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and parts of Utah have died.

Power is starting to get restored due to generators and the government now had a decent supply of cars. Fixing the grid has become a priority.

While heat has killed millions in the south, we’re now getting near November. It’s starting to get cold.

The fourth month

I tell people who come and interview that Michigan’s southern part is about the same latitude as Northern California.  Winters in the upper part of the United States and lower Canada aren’t that bad – if you have heat.

But we don’t have heat.  Natural gas has to be pumped and pumped through a huge network across the country.  When power goes out, even for a few days, a lot of infrastructure falls apart.  New York’s subways, for example are gone.  Much of Chicago has flooded too.  Those who have enough propane will be okay, for awhile (at least until armed thugs come and take it).

By this point, restoring natural gas is not going to be a simple matter of restoring power.  Ever wondered how natural gas gets to your house?  It’s all repairable but it will take time and unfortunately, a lot of that expertise in people has died or is otherwise unavailable. That means bringing people in which will take more time.

If you live in northern states at this point, and you haven’t starved to death, you’re probably going to start dying of exposure.

But that’s a gift compared to what people still struggling to make it in warmer areas as we get reintroduced to cholera, TB, and diarrhea become major problems.

In fact, in 1900 the #1 cause of death in the United States was pneumonia. The #3 was diarrhea. That’s right. The runs killed more Americans than Heart disease, cancer, strokes, etc.  And this November, it returns from retirement as people, without proper sanitation, start to die off from all kinds of things that were previously unheard of.

In fact, as November closes, the United States has reverted to a third world country. No, that’s not fair. Third world countries usually have electricity and their inhabitants usually know how to start a fire.  Do you know how to start a fire without matches and such? Remember watching Survivor and laughing at them? They were in pretty good conditions to get a fire going.  You, by contrast, are wet, cold, weakened, and not sure if it’s even a good idea to start a fire because, well, what are you going to do with it? There’s little food.

On the west coast, food shipments have dropped to a trickle.  LA, Seattle, San Fran, it’s not a fun time there now.

One Year later

The grid is re-established in the midwest, the east coast, and much of the south.  It’s partially re-established on the west coast thanks to help from South Korea, China, and Japan. Thanks guys. We appreciate it even if most of us are dead.

So what’s the death toll?  Conservatively, you’re looking at 40% of the population of the US and Canada has died. That’s probably a best case scenario if food and equipment shipments from the rest of the world come in quickly.

A smart (well not really smart because the states that sponsor terrorists have died off due to the unintended consequences) terrorist would have also zinged Japan, South Korea, the Chinese east coast, and western Europe. If that happened, you would be looking far higher deaths everywhere as there would be no relief coming in.

The population of the United States today is over 300 million people.  In 1900 it was 76 million. The biggest reason for the increase isn’t due to birth rate but rather the massive decline of the death rate.  And remember, they had infrastructure back in 1900.  We’d be worse off than they were because they knew how to live back then. 

How many people know how to can food? How many modern Americans know how much wood to cut to burn? How many Americans live in places where they need an elevator, as a practical matter, to get to where they live?

Heck, how many Americans are simply living today because they have access to all kinds of medical technology?  How many Americans are living in places that can only be inhabited thanks to modern technology? Most of the south west was a barren desert until electrical pumps became possible. Much of the south wasn’t, as a practical matter, livable until air condition.

Also, consider our immune systems of today versus what it was 100 years ago. Our sterilized world has made us very vulnerable to the bacteria and viruses that lurk just outside our electrified civilization. And they would be back to visit within weeks.

Conclusions

Is what I describe realistic? Nobody really knows. There are studies out there.  The book One Second After is a bit more dire than I think it would be.  And it may turn out that our infrastructure is tougher than it seems or that the types of nuclear warheads that an Iran or North Korea could produce aren’t powerful enough to cause the necessary EMP. 

But what is so frightening is how vulnerable we are.  It wouldn’t take much of a shove to bring down the electrical grid.  You could still end up with a situation where 10% of the American population (30 million) die simply by screwing up the electrical grid for a couple months.

Do I think this will happen? Probably not. I have a lot of faith in humanity.  But when one considers the things that we worry about – global warming comes to mind, it amazes me how unconcerned people are at how easily disrupted our modern lives could be given how dependent we are on our technology today.


Comments (Page 10)
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on Jul 10, 2009

EMP is easy to get over. All you need to do is reverse the polarity on a sub-space tachyon field generator, and link it up to a radio telescope so it emits a wide band polaron beam.

You forgot to account for the quantum phasing effect.

on Jul 12, 2009

Lol, u guys have been watching/reading too much science fiction. All this talk about world going in to total darkness, people killing each other, raping, most of the worlds population dying...that happens only in science fiction.

Ill just give ya few facts:

-Like somebody already said, the biggest problem would be huge economic losses(rebuilding, the stop of worldwide trade, all data losses etc.)

-All these doomsday emp theories make a silly assumption that most people are evil, do you realise that most people(especially in western countries)would just wish things to be back normal as soon as possible ? Do you really think everybody would thrown aaway all their principles and moral codes which are the foundation of the current societies just because they don't have electricity ? Sure it could happen in some ghetto, but not elsewhere like capitals cities aroudn the world...

-And the most crucial thing...it wouldn't take long before power plants would be working again. Where do you think all the electric equipment required for power plants comes from ? Yes, they come from factories. Where do factories get the parts ? Dig from earth ? No, they build them from different parts. And they build the parts from other parts. And in this "manufacturing chain" it doesen't take long until you have parts that would be uneffected by the EMP. And all electric devices invented by humans can be build by using your hands, they use automation just to make the process faster.

Sure it would take weeks(mayby months)to get the most important systems working again and it would be a major setback for most of the world, but it's not like we would have a doomsday at our hands and your neighbour would come rape you.

 

on Jul 12, 2009

i wont be able to play demigod?!?!  

on Jul 12, 2009

mawdudi
Lol, u guys have been watching/reading too much science fiction. All this talk about world going in to total darkness, people killing each other, raping, most of the worlds population dying...that happens only in science fiction.

Ill just give ya few facts:

-Like somebody already said, the biggest problem would be huge economic losses(rebuilding, the stop of worldwide trade, all data losses etc.)

-All these doomsday emp theories make a silly assumption that most people are evil, do you realise that most people(especially in western countries)would just wish things to be back normal as soon as possible ? Do you really think everybody would thrown aaway all their principles and moral codes which are the foundation of the current societies just because they don't have electricity ? Sure it could happen in some ghetto, but not elsewhere like capitals cities aroudn the world...

-And the most crucial thing...it wouldn't take long before power plants would be working again. Where do you think all the electric equipment required for power plants comes from ? Yes, they come from factories. Where do factories get the parts ? Dig from earth ? No, they build them from different parts. And they build the parts from other parts. And in this "manufacturing chain" it doesen't take long until you have parts that would be uneffected by the EMP. And all electric devices invented by humans can be build by using your hands, they use automation just to make the process faster.

Sure it would take weeks(mayby months)to get the most important systems working again and it would be a major setback for most of the world, but it's not like we would have a doomsday at our hands and your neighbour would come rape you.

If we follow the assumption in the topic post that *everything* is toast, including truck engines and small motors, the looting and pillaging would start almost immediately. Fortunately the assumptions in the topic are false, but we had to start somewhere.

Look at New Orleans after Katrina, but imagine it without the flooding (it would slowly flood without the pumps, but whatever). There was rioting and looting within days. Several rapes were reported in the Super Dome refugee camp. Lots of people died, and this was with massive external support and the military present.

Now look at what Chicago might look like after the topic super EMP. Clean water will be a huge issue, as not everyone can camp out on the lakeshore - and if they did, all the raw sewage is going right back into the lake. No power means no water distribution system and no working sewage treatment.

Modern cities are not set up like medieval walled cities; they don't have the supplies for a siege. Even if refridgerators and freezers were still working (which they wouldn't be), people would start running out of food within days. Those that have food might share, but not all of them will. Thus the looting and mob action begins. Think about it - how close is the nearest grocery store to where you live, and how long would its supplies last if it had to feed everyone from several miles around and wasn't getting a truckload or two of food each day?

A good measure of your chances of survival would be this: how far do you have to go from where you live to see a field? I live in a fairly small town, less than 100k people, and it is surrounded by farmland. Yet there are people living here that have never seen a corn plant, or for that matter a live cow or pig outside a petting zoo.

Frankly, from the level of damage the topic post assumes, a potential die off to 1900 level population is entirely possible. But look on the bright side: between killing off most of North America and wrecking the world economy in the process, global warming won't be an issue for another century or two.

Note that the topic post didn't address Africa, which gets lots of food aid and even more medical aid from the US. In some countries, AIDS will take up to a quarter of the population in a decade without the supplies of drugs coming in, and half the remainder will be infected. Or how about the middle/near east? Without the money from oil exports, most of the Middle East reverts back to tribalism, or is taken over by religious extremists. Afganistan and Pakistan are either taken over by extremists or switch to hard line policies in order to appease them before they can take over. Without the threat of US or UN forces, things like the Serbian genocide become common as different ethnic groups compete for ever-fewer resources.

In short, you are a hopeless optimist to think people's better nature will have any sort of influence in such a disater situation. The people who are willing to take what they need will live the longest, and those who are willing to share will be the first to go.

on Jul 12, 2009

Not necessarily. People who are willing to share are the same ones who have it in them to organize themselves and cooperate for the common interest.

In the long run, such people always come out on top.

In the short run the "robber" types have the initial advantage due to their inherent ruthlesness. But such advantage quickly melts when push comes to shove and people start defending themselves direct, forming local law enforcement and not waiting for others to rescue them. Look at Wild West. Contrary to what you see in the movies, the place was not a bullet-ridden hellhole where only the dirtiest scumbags survive.

IF, and the OP, as you said, got it totally wrong, all technology was to go, then yes, initially there would be a lot of casualties because the society has no backup system in place in case the smooth running of the present one is compromised. Even then some of those assumed death causes are ridiculous. People don't die en masse because you turn their airconditioning off. Yes, that includes old people. They're not made of icecream.

on Jul 12, 2009

No, they would die because you turned off the AC, the fan, and running water. Modern houses aren't designed with the passive heat control measures 1800s houses were. More importantly, without such ammenities old people would be dying from heat regularly, it only causes a spike because many would die in a short period of time when the power went out rather than having died spread out over the entire summer.

The wild west WAS horribly violent and nasty, but it was the "good" guys as well as the bad guys who were violent. Rarely was time wasted on such frivolities as trials; the slightest infraction, or even perceived infraction, got you shot or hung. Now imagine what that would be like if you crammed four times as many people on the same productive land area without increasing the food supply. That is what this is about: the topic assumes the end of nearly all technology, and the country cannot support 300 million people using 1900s farming techniques.

Society adopts the morality it can afford. The Inuit, for example, lived a harsh artic existence that didn't leave a lot of margin for survival. The honorable way for an elderly person to go was to allow an igloo without a door to be built around them to keep them from bears, then have the tribe leave them there. They couldn't afford to feed someone who couldn't contribute to society. Likewise, when everyone is starving, no one wastes a million dollars treating a kid with cancer. No one worries about racial equality when they see their own kids starving.

on Jul 12, 2009

In which case, again, those who are capable of seeing beyond their immediate and self-centered needs would triumph over those who cater only for themselves. It is opulence which breeds selfishness. Scarcity breeds selflesness. Your Inuit example shows that in the extreme - is there a more selfless act than to die for the good of the many?

It sounds weird, but the end result is such. You will notice you can generally find more selfless people among the poor than you can among the rich. It should be the other way around, but it isn't.

I agree that if you magically turned off all technology, there would be widespread destruction and mayhem. The thing is, you can't turn it off. And you can't turn off knowledge, infrastructure and technological capability with an EMP. We are not talking here about a nuclear holocaust. We are not talking about destroyed industry and infrastructure, levelled cities, millions dead, irradiated land and water, nuclear winter wiping out most surface plant life and so on. EMP is a joke compared to that, as is the irrational fear-mongering these books propagate. It serves no other purpose than to cash in on people's fears.

Finally, it is not a matter of personal beliefs, but of practicality. Communities which are composed of people working for the common good will be by default more powerful and better poised to survive than those which are motley associations of people looking to screw each other over a scrap of stale food.

In fact, it is the abundance the western civilization enjoys which created the mentality of pervasive selfishness. Compared to medieval times, when life was very hard, most people live like kings... and behave accordingly. Human nature is strange that way... but it also changes with the circumstances. So you cannot base your predictions on how people behave in current conditions. When conditions change, so do the people and the nature of society. It is entirely possible that the emergent post-apocalyptic society would be something entirely disconnected from what existed prior to the event.

on Jul 12, 2009

Finally, it is not a matter of personal beliefs, but of practicality. Communities which are composed of people working for the common good will be by default more powerful and better poised to survive than those which are motley associations of people looking to screw each other over a scrap of stale food.

Assuming such a communities *survives* the short term (and by that I mean months, not days), yes - but they wouldn't survive as some sort of communal utopia. The only form of government capable of forming and functioning under such stress is a dictatorship, or at best a committee of dictators. Democracy as we know it would be on an indefinite hiatus.

What you would need to fear in the aftermath of such chaos is not the "motley association" but rather the cohesive group that is willing to live off other people. A good leader can get people to follow them just about anywhere, especially if they are willing to go there in the first place. Read some history of the Huns to get an idea of where I'm coming from.

on Jul 12, 2009

-And the most crucial thing...it wouldn't take long before power plants would be working again. Where do you think all the electric equipment required for power plants comes from ? Yes, they come from factories. Where do factories get the parts ? Dig from earth ? No, they build them from different parts. And they build the parts from other parts. And in this "manufacturing chain" it doesen't take long until you have parts that would be uneffected by the EMP. And all electric devices invented by humans can be build by using your hands, they use automation just to make the process faster.

I don't suppose you bothered to look up how many factories can actually build power transformers? There's not a lot, and it takes a long time to build new ones. Poored countries, and even the poorer parts of developed countries could have to wait years before they get new parts, because they take a long time to make, and they are low priority.

on Jul 13, 2009

Err... you do know that transformers are actually rather low tech and you can build one in your garage? It will take you a while, but it can be done. Its just lots and lots of wiring, metal plating, isolation and glue. You can scavenge all that from existing fried transformers or other machinery.

I doubt technicians would just sit around staring at walls, waiting for the delivery. Get a spanner and get cracking!

@WIllythemailboy:

Assuming such a communities *survives* the short term (and by that I mean months, not days), yes - but they wouldn't survive as some sort of communal utopia. The only form of government capable of forming and functioning under such stress is a dictatorship, or at best a committee of dictators. Democracy as we know it would be on an indefinite hiatus.

 That actually depends, mostly on the size and the initial disposition of the community. It is entirely possible to see the emergence of true democracy communes as well as a hard line dictatorship. I agree that for larger societies, the former are impractical and would likely disintegrate, but it again depends on what is the initial consensus of the founding members. If you get a strong and charismatic individual and a lot of "lost sheep" you will naturally get something akin to a dictatorship. But if you happen to get a lot of educated people in the initial community, the emergence of a quasi-democratic system like the one we have today is entirely possible. Something akin to the Wild West town communities; with a council of "esteemed citizens" and a subordinate law enforcement.

In other words, it is impossible to predict what kind of society may emerge after the current one is shattered. The only thing you can be sure of is that there would initially be a LOT of semi-isolated communities. But they would tend to quickly run together, depending on the aftermath circumstances.

In the case of an EMP, the aftermath curcumstances are very mild - virtually nothing is destroyed, most of the basic technology works and can be repaired. If you know how, you can even repair computers. You just need spare parts, which are always in stock, a set of micro tools, a magnifying glass and a computer technician. All of which would not be affected by an EMP.

As I said, this is not nuclear holocaust we are talking about. Its not the end of the world if someone turns off electricity. Aside from the usual thugs taking advantage of the confusion, which can be fixed by nailing a few of them on the door of the town hall by their ears, the world, environment and the society are intact. So basically there is nothing stopping the people from getting together and putting their society back into running order.

If anything, an EMP would be a good test to see how people behave in the times of all-pervasive and tangible crisis. History shows that nations tend to aggregate in such circumstances. Just look at WWII wartime US industry.

Basically, what OP assumed wrong is that people are dead weights. This is not true. So you lose heavy machinery necessary to farm the massive crop fields? Get the people to do it by hand. They can do it, if there is enough of them, and there is. And its not exactly rocket science, tending the field. You don't need to know what and why, you just need to do what the farmer tells you to do. The same goes for factories and production lines.

on Jul 13, 2009

OK, as I've stated in previous posts, I'm not as pessimistic as the first presented scenario.  Not all of the electronics are going to be destroyed, and not all of society would break down.  That said, if you destroy the power grid with EMP it is not that easy to rebuild and has very severe repercussions to people living in cities (lets just assume it is possible, I totally agree this is a very improbable threat.)  Los Angeles, for example, pumps in all of its water.

Some specific points:

Its just lots and lots of wiring, metal plating, isolation and glue. You can scavenge all that from existing fried transformers or other machinery.

Industrial transformers are not as easy to make, and you can't scavenge copper wiring from fried ones.  EMP generated induction of the power grid destroys the transformer by melting the copper wiring in them.  The initial EMP effect will also possibly damage or destroy computers controlling the system.

I doubt technicians would just sit around staring at walls, waiting for the delivery.

In areas where there is food and water, I have no doubt technicians and engineers will start rebuilding right away.  In very big cities or very remote areas, they are going to be looking for food and water and trying to take care of their families.

In the case of an EMP, the aftermath curcumstances are very mild - virtually nothing is destroyed, most of the basic technology works and can be repaired. If you know how, you can even repair computers. You just need spare parts, which are always in stock, a set of micro tools, a magnifying glass and a computer technician.

The prevailing opinion seems to be that EMP can damage the gates in integrated circuits in computer chips that are under power when the EMP hits.  I've gone into more description of this in earlier posts.  Sure, in general, computers can be repaired.  While a lot of personal computers will probably be destroyed, there will be many that were turned off, unaffected, or still in the wrapper.  However, the more specialized the computer, the harder to find replacement parts, the harder to find the vendor trained technician, the harder to get some industry specific computer working.  A lot of vehicles and computer control systems will also initially be affected until the aforementioned technicians and engineers get around to bypassing their electronic components.

As I said, this is not nuclear holocaust we are talking about. Its not the end of the world if someone turns off electricity. Aside from the usual thugs taking advantage of the confusion, which can be fixed by nailing a few of them on the door of the town hall by their ears, the world, environment and the society are intact. So basically there is nothing stopping the people from getting together and putting their society back into running order.

Basically, what OP assumed wrong is that people are dead weights. This is not true. So you lose heavy machinery necessary to farm the massive crop fields? Get the people to do it by hand. They can do it, if there is enough of them, and there is. And its not exactly rocket science, tending the field. You don't need to know what and why, you just need to do what the farmer tells you to do. The same goes for factories and production lines.

Do you live in the midwest or something?  I grew up in the country and we lived off of well water.  An EMP event would have sucked, but we would have done exactly as you described -- gone to work in the fields until we knew we had secured a food supply, and we would have rebuilt. 

I have also lived in large cities, including Los Angeles.  I have to tell you, I would NOT want to be in Los Angeles if the power grid melted down.  If people are near farmland they can be taught to farm, or even learn how to from reading books and a little trial and error.  8 million people living in what is basically a desert with limited access to food and water is going to get pretty gruesome.  Desperate refugees from the cities may also strain the resources of the smaller towns and create a lot of bad situations that would not otherwise occur.

 

on Jul 13, 2009

They can fish.

No I agree, there are some cities which are so poorly and unnaturally situated, losing the support of the civilization which birthed them would be catastrophic. Vegas comes to mind.

And no, I don't even live in USA. I'm in Europe, and here cities are more historically placed, which usually means there's ample supply of water nearby... even though in some cases you might want to boil it first and perhaps have a live rat for testing purposes.

Industrial grade transformers wouldn't *melt*... the energy required to actually melt down the copper wiring is immense, and I doubt the safeguards against overload spikes would not shut off the entire system and ground extra power before it came to that.

What is vulnerable is the isolation layers, which can melt or be burned through by an arc. This effectively shorts the transformer and renders it inoperable. Also, using industrial grade tools it is entirely possible to build a large transformer. I live near a factory which builds them in fact... I remember they used to assemble them by hand back when I was a kid. As I said, its basically primitive technology. Nothing you can't handle with a large enough workforce and basic tools.

Computers can be bypassed and the system can be controlled manually. Most systems can. The role of a computer is not to do the stuff a human operator can't do, but to lift the workload off of human operators. There may be some planes you can't get off the ground without a computer, but most of current industry can be operated without a single one plugged in. It just requires a lot of people... the only machinery that can't be run by human operators is largely contained in the high-tech industry, which is not essential for a functioning society.

What I am saying is that yes, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but I seriously doubt 40% of US population would die because someone fried the power grid. If we were on a giant spaceship, yeah, I can see that... but we're on Earth and we still haven't paved it all in concrete. Its just an alarmist piece of fiction, the book OP mentions, using baseless assumptions and exaggerations to spin a doomsday story.

Ever read "Flood" by Stephen Baxter? Its about as realistic as that.

on Jul 13, 2009

and perhaps have a live rat for testing purposes.

They would be on the menu, so wouldn't be live for long

on Jul 21, 2009

Same thing would happen that would happen if we ran out of fuel:  autonomous systems of petty warlords, you might think of them as "gangs" but it's a bit different than that.

 

See... this sort of thing kinda actually already happened.

 

410 ad the vandals sack Rome.  After that Charlamagne comes round for a time, then his empire gets split apart.  From then on... you have what you can take and what you can hold onto.

 

 

I'm ready.  Rifleman and spearman, i'll live in the woods if I damn well have to.  STAY OFF MAH PROPERTIE!!1!

on Jul 21, 2009

You'd be better off with a "Duck And Cover!" motto.

Me, I plan to be a megalomaniacal warlord. Those other guys can be petty all they want, I'm gonna get meself a *real* evil empire!

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