Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Published on July 13, 2010 By Draginol In Elemental Dev Journals

At heart, I’m a modder. So part of me really hates shipping games. I prefer them to stay in beta. Forever. But eventually, products have to be shipped and judged based on their state when they’re shipped.

As a modder, the ship date is irrelevant. As a capitalist, I need the game to be good enough to get sufficiently positive buzz to generate the sales to continue my modding.

Ostensibly, my main coding job on Elemental is supposed to just be AI. But that’s because all our previous games weren’t very moddable.

With Elemental, the world is very moddable.  For instance, tactical battles have a lot of modding opportunities I’ve made use of.

Example: I made a quest today where your group is attacked in a huge temple.  Well, the quest xml lets me specify a map. So I made a series of tiles with the tile editor and then a map that used those tiles to create a temple where my guys were attacked by a bunch of Crypt Warriors. I could even name the individual monsters in the room (I named one Dennis, sorry, I can’t help myself).

But the idea of being able to load up a dungeon within the game from XML is the kind of fun I haven’t had since playing with Never Winter Nights.  Which, I admit, Elemental feels a lot like to me at times in terms of tools.

The evil capitalist in me isn’t totally happy about the modding. As I go through the assets available to modders, I see where the budget has gone.   There are so many assets (artwork, models, etc.) that will never see the light of day in the main game but available for modders that it’s a bit…well upsetting. 

I’m at home right now or I’d show you a bunch of a screenshots of the crazy amounts of stuff.

The team also worked out how uploading would work from within the game so you can share your creations seamlessly with others.  It’ll all be in game. But you don’t have to use our system. People can still set up their own sites for mods if they want.

Beta 3-B should really be called Beta 4 I hate to say it. It’s the most significant set of changes to the game rules since Beta 1. 

Your suggestions do get recorded and looked at. It doesn’t necessarily get implemented immediately but they do get looked at and if we like them, we’re not afraid of radical changes as Beta 3B will make clear. There will be riots I’m sure but it’s so much more fun.

Working at Stardock isn’t for the faint of heart. I have no qualms about making radical direction changes if I don’t like how things are going.  I was finding Beta 3A boring. And I don’t think I was alone in that thought.

The problem with making games is that we tend to always want to look at how others did it and repeat the flaws made in the past.  

Nowadays, it’s very very rare to see a new AAA PC-title that isn’t a sequel. So we have an opportunity to take a fresh look at things.

Thank goodness for the beta community and their constructive ideas.  If you’ve ever had a negative view of Internet forums, I recommend joining our community and reading through the work of our community here. It’s amazing. 


Comments (Page 7)
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on Jul 14, 2010

I actually agree with you on something Psychoak.  I don't know how ppl that claim oblivion was great and don't append 'because of the great community mods' can sleep at night. WTF, that game was trash pre-mods.

So yes Brad, mods can most definitely move units. I only own Civ4 and TES4 BECAUSE of the mods.

on Jul 14, 2010

Frogboy
I love modding but I'm not convinced they can move units. We'll see.

Essence = mana cap. Nothing more or less.

you should also look at another game you are now selling ie Total Annalation, compare initial sales, and the post modding sales ie the stardock sales as a return on moddability

harpo

 

on Jul 14, 2010

VermillionChaos
I actually agree with you on something Psychoak.  I don't know how ppl that claim oblivion was great and don't append 'because of the great community mods' can sleep at night. WTF, that game was trash pre-mods.

So yes Brad, mods can most definitely move units. I only own Civ4 and TES4 BECAUSE of the mods.

This is what's called anecdotal evidence. Show me numbers that Oblivion sold well because mods came out for it. Until then, there's no "most definitely" about it. How many fully-priced boxes sold because of mods? Did you buy Civ4 and TES4 full priced because of them?

Modders and mod-users are a small portion of the total playerbase, and even fewer of those buy the game because of mods.

The highest download-count Oblivion mod on TESNexus Gameplay & Effects category only has 122k unique downloads over the last 2 years almost. The highest download Graphics & Texture mod has 155k unique downloads (and also happens to be a nude mod - go us!) How many of those actually bought the game for them? Out of how many total copies the game sold?

Most people don't even *update* their games, not to speak of downloading mods.

compare initial sales, and the post modding sales ie the stardock sales as a return on moddability

Sure, as long as you compare that the initial sales were full price and the current sales are bargain bin.

on Jul 14, 2010

Annatar11


This is what's called anecdotal evidence. Show me numbers that Oblivion sold well because mods came out for it. Until then, there's no "most definitely" about it. How many fully-priced boxes sold because of mods? Did you buy Civ4 and TES4 full priced because of them?

Modders and mod-users are a small portion of the total playerbase, and even fewer of those buy the game because of mods.

The highest download-count Oblivion mod on TESNexus Gameplay & Effects category only has 122k unique downloads over the last 2 years almost. The highest download Graphics & Texture mod has 155k unique downloads (and also happens to be a nude mod - go us!) How many of those actually bought the game for them? Out of how many total copies the game sold?

Most people don't even *update* their games, not to speak of downloading mods.


compare initial sales, and the post modding sales ie the stardock sales as a return on moddability
Sure, as long as you compare that the initial sales were full price and the current sales are bargain bin.

 

Yes and since console sales for TES4s 1st month were higher than for the entire lifespan of the PC, that obviously means that no game should ever be developed for PC because it is a smaller slice of the pie.

/sarcasm off

P.S. I would never have bought the first copy of Oblivion at full price, much less a 2nd digital copy off steam had it not been for Morrowind and its amazing mod community, and I can name about 8 others I know that did the same, all via word of mouth to boot.  Small group observation != anecdotal.

on Jul 14, 2010

You know, honestly, we can even disregard fan made mods for a bit here.

Think about how easy a great set of mod tools make Expansions.

You have a great new IP start here, and easy xpack creation.  Some of use would buy for the campaign or continuing story alone.

NWN2 is a stellar example of this.

on Jul 14, 2010

  First i agree with most of the people on essence.  The way it is now makes it harder to play a caster sovereign.

you can roll a melee sovereign and right from the start kick ass.   Maybe seeing tactical battle will change my mind.

 

  My second point is you guys are crazy. Both morrowind and oblivion are in my top 10 games of all time without mods.

With mods they are perfection.  Without mods they are exceptional games.

 

 My third point is mods do sell more games.  Maybe not in the first 3 months,  but the games that keep selling year after

year either have very good multiplayer or have good mod community.

on Jul 14, 2010

Has Stardock and/or the community figured out a semi-official centralized location for mods and such yet? (similar to the Vault for NWN). Will it be Stardock hosted or a site like I-mod that is stickied over in the mod forum? Just curious...

on Jul 14, 2010

Annatar11

Show me numbers that Oblivion sold well because mods came out for it. Until then, there's no "most definitely" about it. How many fully-priced boxes sold because of mods? Did you buy Civ4 and TES4 full priced because of them?

Well, it's not Civ related, but I bought GalCiv2 because I read about the editors and ship builders. That's what really got me into being a Stardock fan really. To me all the editing tools might as well be a "Modding Engine". If there's any other people out there like me then I would guess Stardock has a rather sizable fan base of people who are here for the customization/modding. With Elemental the two are practically one and the same.

on Jul 14, 2010

Icepick
Has Stardock and/or the community figured out a semi-official centralized location for mods and such yet? (similar to the Vault for NWN). Will it be Stardock hosted or a site like I-mod that is stickied over in the mod forum? Just curious...

 

Icepick, from what I remember, Brad mentioned something about Impulse having an area where you could download the mods and such. I'm not 100%, but I'm fairly certain he did mention something about that within the last couple of weeks.

on Jul 15, 2010

VermillionChaos

Quoting Annatar11, reply 93



Yes and since console sales for TES4s 1st month were higher than for the entire lifespan of the PC, that obviously means that no game should ever be developed for PC because it is a smaller slice of the pie.

/sarcasm off

 

Uh I'd like to know where you got your numbers on that. Because the PC sale were actually higher...

on Jul 15, 2010

Austinvn



Quoting Annatar11,
reply 75
It's also not quite accurate. Strictly speaking, a melee sovereign who only raises melee stats will be able to cast much fewer spells per turn (and not even all spells due to having low essence) while a caster sovereign who raises his INT/Essence scores will not only do more damage with his spells, but be able to cast more per turn (and more mana in tactical battles as well). So while the melee guy hacks better, the caster guy is able to fling spells left and right. Also, only the really high-end spells will use any meaningful essence. The few low ends that do are creating fertile land (food), and imbuing Champions (gives other units essence, so also spellcasting abilty) - which are powerful enough to warrant it.

The problem with Essence isn't balance at all. It functions well enough, it just doesn't have very much flavor as a "core super important stat".


Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough before - I'm not claiming a melee sovereign is going to be throwing spells around every turn and be able to match a caster in that respect. The melee specializes in killing things with a sword, the caster specializes in killing things with magic, and they both perform their specialty much better than the other can - fair enough, this aspect of the game is somewhat balanced. The problem as I see it is that my melee can create fertile land, imbue champions, etc and receive a very significant benefit from thus spending his essence - and it doesn't hurt his ability to hack things up with a sword. My caster can cast those same essence-expending spells, but it hurts his ability to cast normal mana-only spells every turn. Thus the melee can more freely use strategic essence-expending spells because it does not impact his tactical sword-hacking skills, while it does impact the tactical spell-throwing skills of the caster.

 

Perhaps there should be two types of magic in the game.  Mega-Magic (High magic) which use Essencesand Normal magic which uses mana.  To make land fertal and imbue Hero's would be High magic while all other spells would be magic.

on Jul 15, 2010

SavageBananaMan34
Brad, I am as upset as you are that so many assets are not going to make it in the main game. Is there a reason you can't incorporate them in? It really is sad if many great models go to waste and only people modding will ever get to see and use them. Take advantage of that content to make the game richer! 

 

Agreed 100%. Having lots of content solely for modders is a waste in my eyes since I intend to compete in the metaverse and thus got little interest in things which can't be used to compete in the metaverse and online.

on Jul 17, 2010

This is what's called anecdotal evidence. Show me numbers that Oblivion sold well because mods came out for it. Until then, there's no "most definitely" about it. How many fully-priced boxes sold because of mods? Did you buy Civ4 and TES4 full priced because of them?

 

I bought the expansions for Oblivion at a bit of a discount, and BTS at full price with a frigging preorder.

 

When they start giving out surveys that ask "did you buy this game because of mods" we'll know more than anecdotal evidence.  Till then you're going to have to give up on something more and suffice with what you know.  We know FFH2 moved some units in Civ4, we just don't know how many.  I can account for at least three copies of BTS solely because of FFH2 from people I know personally in real life, so I'm guessing it's pretty high since I'm a bit of a recluse.

 

Don't knock bargain bin sales either.  If they're buying them off Impulse at $5-10 bucks two years from now, Stardock will still be raking it in.

 

My second point is you guys are crazy. Both morrowind and oblivion are in my top 10 games of all time without mods.

With mods they are perfection.  Without mods they are exceptional games.

 

You like going to the dentist too, don't you?

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