Faith in God

My failure to believe

Published on December 12, 2004 By Draginol In Religion

You can't choose to have faith in something. You either have faith or you don't. And when it comes to most religious issues the most faith I can manage to muster is the faith that there may be some greater being, some higher power that ultimately created the universe. Beyond that, my faith is lacking.

My friends who have faith cannot understand this aspect of myself anymore than I can understand their ability to have faith in their particular religious choice. It's beyond me. I simply cannot bring myself to have faith in the teachings of any man-made theology. Nor can I accept that any of the theologies being presented are "divinely" provided.

For example, I fully understand the nature of Christianity. In fact, I'd argue I know it far better than most "Christians" I know. Christianity boils down to this: If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior then you will be able to join him in the kingdom of heaven. It's as simple as that. If you truly believe in Christ, then you will be saved.

Not believing in Jesus as your lord and savior does not mean you go to hell. Not in the sense most people think of it anyway. The bible is vague (at best) about the alternatives. Having faith in Christ is simply you accepting an invitation to blessed path after the end. Not accepting that invitation leads to the unknown. My point being, my problem with faith is not based on the oft-spoken issue of "What about the people who have never heard of Christianity? Do they all go to hell? Does that mean that everyone else is going to suffer?" Because that's not actually what most Christian theologians believe. The alternative to the kingdom of heaven isn't eternal pain and torment. The alternative is unknown (though you can get into a lively debate as competing passages of the old and new testament, translated umpteen billion times get thrown back and forth).

But for me, faith in Christianity (or any religion that shows there is more to the world than the physical) is something I desire but am incapable of. It's that the specifics of each religion almost always fall apart on closer, objective inspection.

I know, for instance, that Jesus was not born on December 25th. At least, the preponderance of evidence is that he wasn't born on December 25th. The date was simply put there after the fact by the early Catholic church to make it easier to convert pagans. Easter is the same thing with its taking place conveniently during pagan fertility festivals. I've known this for years. But that wouldn't really disturb my faith. The actual dates of the birth and death Christ are arbitrary.

But things get more difficult when the preponderance of evidence indicates that the concept of "immaculate" conception of Jesus came much later (in fact, the books of Luke and Mark and such didn't even get written for decades after the fact). And the more you dig into the historical accuracy of Christmas the more the whole thing unravels.

Christianity, as a sect, really boiled down to something pretty specific at the beginning. Jesus was leader of a particular group of Jews. He was tried and crucified for sedition. Two days later, a number of eye witnesses claim they saw and spoke to him -- that he had risen from the dead. And enough people believed -- had faith -- that this was the truth that everything eventually snowballs from there (with a big help of St. Paul who, btw, had never met Jesus in all likelihood). Like I said, the more I've looked into the specifics, the more it unravels.

For me to have faith in such a specific vision of religion would require proof. Real proof. And of course, that's the catch, proof denies faith. I'm not looking for a reason to have faith, I'm looking for proof and I know such proof that would satisfy me doesn't exist. You either have faith or you don't. And I don't.

Not having faith is nothing to take pride in. It makes me feel a bit ill to see some pretentious atheist try to claim intellectual superiority for his faith of believing that the universe just spontaneously came into being. That's a faith that has about as much "scientific" proof behind it as believing that the universe was created 6 seconds ago by 3 green fairies who gave us all these memories.

As faiths go, I would much rather believe that there is an omnipotent being that is concerned over our welfare to the point that he sent his own son to die for our sins to enable us to join him after we leave or mortal coil. That sure beats believing the universe simply sprang into existence and that after we die there is nothing. But I have faith in neither belief. Simply put, I don't know what happens after we die. But I cannot have faith in the specifics of Christianity. I'm just not the faith kind of guy. I need evidence to believe something.

I don't think you need to have faith to be a happy person. Nor do I think you need faith to have a fulfilled life. The home I live in is full of love and joy. There is no emptiness due to the lack of faith or religion in our lives. But at the same time, I truly wish I could have faith because I very much want to believe that there is more to this world than what I can see and touch (or that others have seen or touched whose credibility I trust). But I cannot muster that spark.

And so I can enjoy warmth and comfort of Christmas because of its earthly goodness due to the presence and love of friends and family. But I can't enjoy it due to its otherworldly meanings.

Comments (Page 2)

cactoblasta

on Dec 13, 2004

It's kind of like me and Purple. I can't see it, smell it, taste it, touch it, or hear it. I can either accept that there are things in this existence that are beyond our ability to have proven to us, or I can think everyone who claims to see purple are delusional.

Hehehe. Nice analogy there.

I wouldn't worry about believing if I was you Draginol. If you don't have faith you're not suddenly going to find it by thinking about it constantly. It's better to simply go through life and wait for that perfect moment where you come to a conclusion. It'll either happen or it won't, but it can't really be rushed.

Draginol

on Dec 13, 2004

Actually I don't think the purple analogy is apt because the color pruple is a particular like spectrum. Its existence isn't in doubt. I don't need to go to France to believe that there's an Eifel Tower. It's a matter of whether the preponderance of evidence leads me to conclude that there is an Eifel Tower.

By contrast, no credible source that I can find has actually demonstratably seen God, talked to God or had an experience that can be undeniably traced to the otherworldly.

Dr Guy

on Dec 13, 2004

that the concept of "immaculate" conception of Jesus came much later

First, let me clear up a mis-conception (no pun intended). It was Mary who was the Immaculate conception as she was born without sin. NOt Jesus, his was a divine conception (since Mary Had not known man).

By contrast, no credible source that I can find has actually demonstratably seen God, talked to God or had an experience that can be undeniably traced to the otherworldly.

Second, many people have claimed just that. And most of them are in the loony bin! It is unfortunate that if you were to get your wish, most people would also want to commit you, even if you were harmless other than prosthelycizing(SP).

Finally, I think several people pointed out that Faith is a gift. And I guess in a way it is. You either accept it or not, and you have realized that to be true. You just have to continually seek proof, of which none will be forthcoming.

But you do not have to believe, as long as you live the moral life. And that all comes down to doing right by your neighbor. IF you do that, you are already blessed.

JillUser

on Dec 13, 2004

Kobrano, I enjoyed your stories and do see how they might cause one to feel faith in God. I personally don't have trouble with faith in God as an unexplainable being of power I can't fathom which created everything. It is the specific religions I have problems with. I don't have faith in Christianity but certainly am not offended by it or feel that it is silly or less valid a belief than any other. It just isn't what is in my heart.

I tend to believe that there were special talents given to many on the planet and the ability to teach about those talents were given to some of the talented. Those special individuals that were able to communicate and teach the masses, like Jesus, our founding fathers, etc, are very important and should be given time of appreciation. That is why I personally celebrate the birth of Jesus (not that I believe the whole divine aspect of him or that he was born in Dec). It doesn't matter to me when or how he was born, it is important to me that he influenced humanity in such an important way. You don't have to be christian to appreciate that.

Kobrano

on Dec 13, 2004

This is so true. I didn't mean to imply I was faithless before last year, or the year before.. It was just that I was less aware of it, and more worried about going about day to day business and not really making it an important part of my life. But I do firmly believe that it is a special gift, and you either have it, or you don't - it might come to you, or it might not.

Few people are willing to share their stories of faith to people that don't have faith, so your evidence will be even harder to locate. I shared only a tiny snippet of them above, in abridged form, but I assure you, I have many more - they will remain in my heart though. If by evidence you mean you are looking for something like a car that god drove in, or something mortal and tangible, you'll never find it i'm afraid. But there is plenty of evidence out there in other forms, its up to you to discover them.

henning

on Dec 13, 2004

Regarding the unravelling.

I think it's a matter of perspecitive. I like to think of myself as a logical guy (I have a degree in math). And I don't think the Christian account unravels in any way. I think the whole Bible is consistent within itself and logical. Whenever someone tries to point out an inconsistency in the Bible, it invariably turns out to be the case that there's a flaw in their argument somewhere. Most of the time, it comes down to a misunderstanding of the times.

For example, many people claim that Jesus never claimed to be God. Well, if you read the Bible you could argue that quite easily by pointing out that he never says the words "I am God." But that ignores the times and the people. Jesus never said "I am God". But Jesus DID say that He is the Son of the Father in heaven. And when he spoke those words, the people of the day knew EXACTLY what he meant - they tried to stone him for blasphemy! So, did Jesus SAY that He was God? No. Did He CLAIM to be God? Most definitely.

Anyway, I gave that long-winded example because it's one of the many things people say are inaccurate or inconsistent about the Bible. There are many, many of them. And they can all be explained away in similar ways. Luckily for me! Because I like to think I'm a logical kind of guy. (And before you say it, yes, I know that people aren't as logical as they like to think. But I do want my faith to be substantiated. I believe it is.)

pcunite

on Dec 13, 2004

If you want to know that Jesus is really God the creator
and maker of all things then the only way to get faith
in Him is to say out loud into the air, "Jesus if your real,
please show me."

MythicalMino

on Dec 13, 2004

(Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The Amplified version of the Hebrews 11:1 reads as this: (Heb 11:1) NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

Faith is simply....believing. Especially believing when there are no physical "reality" pointing to the truth of that belief. Everyone has faith. Where ppl differ, is how they use that faith. When a person says, "I just simply cannot do that (whatever "that" may actually be)", they are using their faith. They are "calling those things that be not, as though they were" (see Romans 4:17). They are calling themselves insufficient to perform whatever action they are talking about. Therefore, when a person says, "I simply cannot believe in God...I have tried....but I cannot believe". They are using their faith. Using it in a destructive way, mind you, but using it none-the-less.

Faith...is an action. Faith DOES. Faith looks at the impossible, and makes it possible. Draginol, when you formed Stardock, how many ppl really believed that you could excel in the business? Did you believe you could? If you didn't, then why waste your time trying? No, you DID believe you could. You then acted on that faith, and DID. Now, lets take that to a "religious" look....to believe, well, you have to believe. There is no "trying to believe". You either do...or you don't. If you do, then you are using your faith in the way God intended....you will be calling a relationship with Him into existence (and He will be there backing you up ALL THE WAY, according to His Word). If you don't, then you are using your faith in a way that God DID NOT intend. Your faith grows weak, collapses in on itself, and self-destructs. The Bible says that God has given EVERY man the measure of faith. In other words, God has given every man the means to believe. It doesn't take going to church, listening to Christian radio....or even READING the Bible. (NOTE: All those things do help, though). All it requires is HEARING the Word of God. The Bible also says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (see Romans 10:17).

What you must do, though...is make a stand. Do not look to your right, neither look to your left. But instead...look to God. But YOU have to be the one to look to God. Give no room for failure....give no place to the devil, for he is as a roaring lion, walking about, seeing whom he may devour (see 1 Peter 5:8).

But, again...it comes down simply to you....will you believe...or not? And that decision is simply action....BELIEVING

ogg

on Dec 13, 2004

As a child, I was raised within a very strict Christian religion. However, I was not the average child. I learned to speak phrases and sentences by the age of 2. As I grew a little older, Where my brothers and sisters and most children would find great joy in physical activity and social play I would read and explore my chemistry set. I am a type "C" personality.

I require logic and order. Although being brought up with religion and was required to read the scriptures, the sciences were always more interesting than some un seeable God - here was logic, order and something I could truly understand.

Though I kept this buried within me, by the time I reached 17, the obvious conflicts between my beliefs and the rebellious nature of youth caused me to leave home and therefor I never went on to higher education and to make a profession in the sciences - still I crave knowledge and it has been a lifelong pursuit to acquire all the understanding of physics, astrophysics, paleology, archeology, and anthropology as well as music... my great love, the mathematics of tone. The internet has been a wondrous fountain for this pursuit and I have been on-line since 1992.

Unlike most of the scientists and scholars whose papers and theories I have read, like you I could never bring myself to declare I was an atheist, something within me simply could not accept this. And like you, my beliefs cannot be based upon faith alone... I am not blessed with/for this.

So, let me tell you why I DO believe in God and Christ as my savior.

Let me start out with a few facts. The cosmos as scientists now understand it, began with a big bang. No one knows scientifically why. In one moment there was light, where the moment before there was virtually nothing and darkness.

After a while, the energy expended began to coalesce into hydrogen... the lightest and 1st element on the periodic table. Gravity wells began to collect these gases and stars were born. At the center of these stars, heavier elements are created through the process fusion. As the stars aged, they begin to collapse under their own weight and, for a majority of stars this results in what is known as a nova... an exploding star. The matter ejected, rich in hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon and iron - as well as a lesser amount of the remaining elements.

This ejected material again is recycled through the forces of gravity to form new stars, planets, comets, asteroids etc.

The odd thing is that four of the elements: hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen and carbon are created in mass quantities. What is odd about this? they are the basic building blocks of amino acids, which in turn are the basic building blocks of DNA... LIFE. They are so abundant that they are raining down on this planet - as well as every other planet in the cosmos.

According to a basic premise of science, nothing happens accidentally, there is only action and reaction. So why is it that the entire cosmos could be described as a gigantic life making machine and it appears to be "intelligently designed? There is only one answer - thus the reason for the headlines you see of another famous scientist, professor, etc. declaring their renunciation of atheism. Not to mention the fact that it is the only possible explanation for the big bang in the first place.

But these people will not go the step further and declare their belief in a personal, caring God.

I do , and here is why.

This is my own hypothesis, and while there may be another name for it, I developed it on my own through logic. I call it the LPB equation - and I believe it to be a characteristic of all life:

Learn - Plan - Build

Using this principle I can demonstrate how the first stone tool came to be created by man:

Learn - man observed that some broken rocks had sharp edges and these sharp edges did a good job in cutting flesh (probably his foot).

Man has need to cut flesh since his teeth have trouble penetrating the hide of a beast he has killed so he trys to find a rock to use to do the job. Of the rocks finds, some work well and others don't, so ...

Plan - he considers the rocks that work well, understands how the rock would need to be fashioned and then...

Build - begins deliberately breaking his own rocks to fashion it to suit the specific purpose.

OK, that is on a conscious level, BUT!, I believe it goes on at a subconscious level instinctive level in all life. Life surveys it's environment, understands how it needs to adapt and evolves it's self to do so.

What this means to me is that before there was a cosmos, there was a plan for it. And since there was a plan, everything that is, was thought of before it came to be (it existed spiritually).

So, you see Draginol, you do not need faith to believe in God the evidence of God is overwhelming. And if you want to see him, just look all around you and within you. There is your proof, the cosmos is, it is alive, you exist. God thinks, therefor he is.

All that you lack, is to know the plan and the reason for it.

Ask and you will receive
Seek and you shall find
Knock and the door will be opened unto you

foreverserenity

on Dec 13, 2004

Draginol, I believe God works through others to get his message across to each of us. You won't see him; you won't even be able to tell it is him if you see him. But he's always there in your life, making things happen.

You don’t need anyone to show you that he exists, there’s proof all around you. You might try to be skeptical, but some things don’t need an explanation, because there’s none, other than that God
talks to you through the Holy Spirit. There are so many infinite possibilities that are born of faith. You might feel that you don’t have faith, but you do. It may not be (or you feel it is not) “faith” as defined by others, who says it has to be? Your faith is what you believe. You believe in love, your children, your wife, your getting up everyday, taking care of your family, getting through your daily activities, this alone is faith.

Everyone has had their profound experience at a moment in their life when it is supposed to be. It is through these experiences we grow and our faith becomes stronger. There is no such thing as a coincidence, God knows the desires of your heart, it is he who creates these moments. While there are others who will be skeptical and say, hogwash, that’s ok, there will always be people who do. It’s up to you to decide, is God at work in your life or is isn’t he?

eussal

on Dec 13, 2004

You started by saying you can't choose to have faith in something, and that statement has been repeated several times. I think that is rediculous. I make decisions every day as to whether or not I wish to have faith in something. Do I have faith that I will not get fired? because if I don't, why go in?
You also seem to imply that you are somehow incapable of faith. That is a litteral impossibility. If you had no fiath in anything, you would be insane.
Looks to me like the real question, is do you have faith in GOD. That is purely a choice. If you were Christian, you would believe that it is THE choice. The one choice that sets man apart from Gods other creations, the choice to believe in him or not.

I'm not even going to try to sell you on Christianity, because to be honest, it can be very hard to swallow. I take comfort in the knowledge that it is a translation of a translation, and can not be taken to litterally. However I should point out that on all of the points that matter, I have never had anyone successfully show me a contridiction or flaw that was not of thier own making, and I have had MANY debates on the subject.

It sounds like what is really going on with you is you are struggeling with your current faith (The faith you have that Christianity is false) I certainly hope that your current faith fails, and is replaced with a Christian one, but it does not change the fact that we are brothers in Gods eye, and whatever you come to, you can rest assured, you will always have our support.

Wayne

relswick

on Dec 13, 2004

As Kobrano, Miracles are evidence of a greater being or at least in the absence of an explanation or proof of why something occurred.

Until then, find them and believe.

Of course, most relegions reference one God over all, so in essence we are all talking about the same God.

Best class I had in college was the Philosophy class with a teacher, who once was a Jew, had 'renounced' Judaism and started independently studing the Bible, Christianity, Catholosism and Islam. He was very knowledgable and presented great arguments for a variety of topics related to Philosophy!

All this at Henry Ford Community College no less!

Dr Guy

on Dec 13, 2004

Few people are willing to share their stories of faith to people that don't have faith, so your evidence will be even harder to locate. I shared only a tiny snippet of them above, in abridged form, but I assure you, I have many more - they will remain in my heart though. If by evidence you mean you are looking for something like a car that god drove in, or something mortal and tangible, you'll never find it i'm afraid. But there is plenty of evidence out there in other forms, its up to you to discover them.

That is probably because in the end, each is unique to the individual. It was Soren Kierkegaard that said you can only go so far in the proof of God or religion, and once you reach the end, you have to make a 'leap of faith'.

I dont beleive in prosthelysizing (sp). Each person must come to their own realization. I will gladly tell you mine, but that is how I found it, and may or may not help you. In the end, follow yourheart, for in matters of faith, the brain cant get there, but the heart may.

Silly? Probably. But from a logical standpoint, so is faith.

Draginol

on Dec 13, 2004

"Looking around you and seeing the miracle of it all" doesn't in any way imply that Christianity is valid as a religion any more than believing that some super being created it all.

Believing (or having faith) that there is some higher power, of some sort, is a far cry from believing in the specifics of Christianity. I certainly very much would like to believe in Christianity. It is not logic that makes it unravel as one looks at it deeper but rather history.

I am glad for those of you who have faith in religion. Not all of us can have faith in a particular religion. It is not through lack of knowledge or lack of effort or lack of plain thinking about it.

I'm not even going to try to sell you on Christianity, because to be honest, it can be very hard to swallow. I take comfort in the knowledge that it is a translation of a translation, and can not be taken to litterally. However I should point out that on all of the points that matter, I have never had anyone successfully show me a contridiction or flaw that was not of thier own making, and I have had MANY debates on the subject.

That is because, in my experience, every bible debate ends with someone saying "God did it". It's kind of the equivalent of when watching Xena and something that doesn't make sense happens just saying "Wizards did it". I don't debate the specifics of any particular religion because you can always just fall back on self-referencing "God is all powerful and thus all things are possible". Or you can reinterpret things. It's tiresome. Especially if the other person can say "Well you can't take that liberal -- sure the first day God said let there be light but the sun wasn't created until the third day but..but.. it's all interpretation"

Besides, my problems with Christianity have nothing to do with the contradictions (alleged or not) but simply, like you said, how implausible some of it is.

Simply put, for me, if Christianity were real and truly important, God would not leave it to chance. That's just my view. I don't ask others to accept it. I don't look down on those who have faith. I simply don't share their beliefs even though I wish I did.

imajinit

on Dec 13, 2004

Brad - this is none of my business, and you obviously don't have to answer if you choose not to, but I have to ask:

what do you teach your boys when it comes to questions about faith? what path would you like to see them take?

Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:

Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums.
Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
It's simple, and FREE!