Didn't you know capitalism was bad?

Trolls on a mission..

Published on February 11, 2005 By Draginol In Personal Computing

..I'm in a ranting mood...stand back!

Over the years I've noticed a pretty consistent thing - there are people who really really have a problem with the concept of people making a living selling software.

As a result, some of these people make it their mission to go out and harass people (like me) who make a living selling software.

One example came up today. I am a news moderator on the popular tech news site Neowin.net. I think it's a fantastic site with an incredible staff of volunteers. But it has a sizeable user population of "l33t" users who a) Think they know everything on tech because, well they're 19 years old and they know everything doncha know? and Non-free software is the devil and any level of nastiness is justified to thwart the purveyers of evil.

One guy today went so far to create an account called "ToadLad" (my account name there is "Frogboy"). Get it? Toad = Frog. Lad = Boy. Very clever...

Since I post software news on Neowin I also post Stardock's press releases too. On other sites, our media relations goddess does this. But since I'm a news moderator on Neowin, it makes sense for me to go ahead and do this since, essentially I would be the one who would end up approving the final news item.

But this guy went onto a rant that essentially went like this "You just love to spam the world with your crap? You've already got Stardock.com and WinCustomize.com? Why do you have to spam your stuff here?" Here being a Technology NEWS site. And spam being news for software that is (god forbid) not free.

For those not ambitious enough to create fake users to troll the comments, you also have the people who insist on trying to rationalize that any good commercial product has a freeware equivalent. Photoshop? Oh, the Gimp is much better. Terminal Server? Loser, VNC. WindowBlinds? No, just hack your uxtheme.dll. And now with our upcoming Multiplicity program we've got the same crowd chimes in with "Oh, you can do the same thing with Synergy!"

In most of these cases (almost all these cases) these "l33t" users have never actually used the commercial product (see "evil" above). But they just know because they know everything. Who cares if the "Free" program has a lot fewer features or is flakey or requires hours of setup time to work? When you're 19, time is all that matters and $20 or whatever is big money to someone who's source of income is their mom.

I have nothing against free software. I use a lot of free software. In fact, I use free software whenever I can. I'll take free over commercial any day if it does what I need it to do. But there is nothing inherently magical about free software. And the downside is that most free software I run into (not all of course, there are very well known examples) have the 80% problem. They work -- almost. They tend to often be more proof of concept.

"Sure the screen flickers when you switch desktops and you can't play a full screen game while using it and you have to configure the machines using a text file with arcane configuration fields and it sometimes disconnects for no reason requiring you to reboot...but...it's free!"

I don't think I have a problem so much with the people who try to promote a freeware program. Hey, more power to them. I take the view that people who might potentially buy our product will try out the free alternative, try ours and make their own conclusion.

What I do have a problem with are the people who intentionally go out of their way to try to stifle my right to promote our software. The double-standards really irritates me. As if free software somehow deserves special treatment because it's "free". I don't think users should make such distinctions in terms of what gets reported, only in terms of when someone makes a decision on what to actually use.

Comments (Page 5)

Jafo

on Feb 12, 2005

To my best knowledge, someone correct me if I wrong, this site does not make money and is in fact subsidized by Stardock and is here because of Stardock's commitment to helping the skinning community thrive.

Your 'best knowledge' is good...

The Real Shark

on Feb 12, 2005

Cygnus...if you are an admitted bigot, then you cannot call someone else down for being a bigot. If indeed bigotry is an intolerable belief in one's own opinions, you should not expect anyone to agree with you because it should not matter to you. It should not bother you that someone other than yourself is a bigot. And, yet you call Frogboy a bigot, as if there is something wrong with it, while admitting that you are a bigot. You are using a self-defeating argument. It as much like the old saying that the pot calls the kettle black.
However, I don't believe that Brad is a bigot. He promotes his product in a free-market society.
When you wrote of running your family business, did you promote your business? If you did not, then, as you are fond of pointing out in regards to responsibility, you shirked the responsibility toward your employees and the customer. If Brad does not promote or market his business interests, he denies his employees job security.

CygnusXII

on Feb 12, 2005

In truth I do not expect to win an argument. I am not arguing to win anything. I am not arguing, at all.
I make what I feel are my points about Brads Statements. If you agree then you do, if ya don't..you make your own points. I was responsible for my actions and reaped the rewards or penalties for my business decisions. I dealt with my customers face to face, where one is directly responsible for ones statements. Marginalizing a demographic because they disagree with you is not the way to go. I do not fault Brad for promoting his business. He does that here very well. He does that in a lot of places very well. Do you actually think he would have said something like he did in this 'RANT' in the Time Magazine Article about StarDock? I do not think so. Everyone is Bigotted in one aspect or another, that is human nature, the differences are when someone attempts to use that bigotry to marginalize someone else that does not agree with them. Brad might think he has a right to promote, but as with any 'RIGHTS' they only go as far to someone as long as they do not impinge on another persons 'RIGHTS.' How would you feel if you were the 19 year old he was griping about? In print on a Decently publicized Web Site.
I guess I am guilty of not establishing my points clearly enough, to be deemd intelligable by all. On that note I am sorry, I could not get my points across in a fashion that is understandable to some people.

butch123

on Feb 12, 2005

Brad keep up the super job you are doing, i applaude you.

on Feb 12, 2005

ohhh... selective capitalization!

Anyway, you fish at that side and Brad fish at other side and nobody fish in middle.

Running one's business means that person can do whatever the hell he or she wants to do. That person can spend $1,000 a hour creating a freeware that has 1,000 competitors. That person can also write blogs deriding anything from competitors to his or her own products. That's freedom. You do have right to disagree, but you don't have the right to try to suppress Brad's blogs. Create your own dictatorship so you can suppress your people's own freedoms not ours.

If I had a business and talked like you have here, I would fire you.

So you would have fired yourself?

on Feb 12, 2005

Brad might think he has a right to promote, but as with any 'RIGHTS' they only go as far to someone as long as they do not impinge on another persons 'RIGHTS.' How would you feel if you were the 19 year old he was griping about? In print on a Decently publicized Web Site.

Freedom of speech. As long as it's not as bad as hate speech anyway. Don't tell me his griping is a hate speech...

Do you actually think he would have said something like he did in this 'RANT' in the Time Magazine Article about StarDock? I do not think so.

What do you think why it's here and not in Time magazine?

The Real Shark

on Feb 12, 2005

I could not get my points across in a fashion that is understandable to some people."

Was that veiled condescension with the appearance of humility?

CygnusXII

on Feb 12, 2005

No, it means I do not have the proper skills..or am lacking some oratory ability to make myself understood. It is a failing on my part.

Frogboy

on Feb 13, 2005

No Cygnus, you are communicating fine. Your problem is one of supreme arrogance. You are so certain of your righteousness that you assume that those who disagree with you are merely misunderstanding you.

In reality, people are understanding you. They just don't agree with you. In my opinion, you have no sense of perspective. When you start trivializing charged terms like "bigoted" by extending its meaning to areas that it makes no sense, you undermine your arguments.

This statement you made speaks volumes:

If I had a business and talked like you have here, I would fire you. I ran my Mothers business for Several years while she was going through Chemo Therapy, and effectively was the Owner in all but Title, and I would never talk to a Customer or potential Customer in the fashion you have and Do. Let alone put such tripe in writing.

Your root problem is just sheer, unearned arrogance. You ran your mom's business for awhile. I built mine from scratch and have grown it for over 10 years now. I think it's safe to say that I know something on business at this point.

Fortunately for you, I am not like you or else I'd have removed your commenting priviledge back when you were disrupting the DesktopX 3 announcement. Because if we are talking cold hard business acumen, then the most logical course would be to eliminate those who are disruptive.

In the first 13 days of this month nearly 2 million unique individuals have visited WinCustomize.com alone (let alone JoeUser.com).

The most optimally run on-line companies vigorously control what kinds of comments are made to posts. We don't do that here. We have a very liberal policy on freedom of speech here. But the other side of that coin is that you have to put up with my rants. And while I would be the first to agree that such rants will alienate some tiny percentage of people who read them (just like any OPINIONATED article will) it is not going to adversely affect sales in any measurable level. Therefore, I consider such rants a perk of the position.

Let me also give you a little advice to you. I can tell you that on nearly any other site, talking the admins in the way you have would get you booted. You're rapidly reaching that point here. You see, your analogy is wrong. You're thinking WinCustomize is a store. It's not. It's a community center. And if you can't behave like a civilized human being then you won't be welcome.

CygnusXII

on Feb 13, 2005

Well, I guess you'll have to do what you feel is proper. I can live with being Banned from WinCustomize, if you choose to take that track. I can abide by the consequences of my actions. If you want to Ban me for not agreeing with you and being vocal about it, well there ya go. If you want to ban me for questioning the validity of your sales practices (as with the DesktopX 3 PRO issue.) Well there ya go... I have been here since the very beginning of WC, and seen this chain of events enacted quite a few times. I am not suprised at its' outcome. Just to be sure, I have not talked to the Admins badly at all. I have talked to you. The disagreement is with you, and your 'RANT.' Right there. You picked the place, wrote the words and put the ball into motion, do not be suprised if someone comes at ya when you're on a roll. Today it is me, next time it will be someone else. Do not be suprised when ya come charging in somewhere itching for a brawl, and someone brings it to you. Whether I am right or not, you came here looking for it, and was not going to be happy till it was finished, and I happened to be in the mood to take it to its' conclusion.

..I'm in a ranting mood...stand back!

Rock on BigBoy, Ban me if ya want to, I'm Done.

WOWfactor.555.

on Feb 13, 2005

Well, Thought I'd Come Back And See How This Thread Was Progressing. It Amazes Me How a Rant About One Thing Gains Responses That Branch Off In Different Directions.

Quote Ms. libbywoods103:

What the heck does all of this have to do with winCustomize? These comments, on a whole, are totally irrelevant to this site and I take offence to the importance you all are putting towards it.

You Might Want To Look At The Bar To Your Left. Many Different Sections To This Forum. This One Is In Personal Computing. I Suggest You Stick To The Forum Sections That Pertain To The Functionality Of Stardock Software Or Other subjects Of Enlightenment. For Example:
- OS Customisation
- Stardock Support

Maybe This Should Be In The General Section, Which Is Where You Will Usually Find The Rants, The Importance Of Which You Find So Offensive.

To Mr Eroticus Prime Who Wrote:

WOWfactor.555, I agree with pretty much everything you said, but Is Typing Like This Really Necessary?

I'm Glad We See Eye To Eye On Some Issues. And To Answer Your Question - Yes It Is Necessary. It's The Way I Type. You're Not The First To Comment On It, And Somehow I Think You Won't Be The Last.

Personally I've NEVER come across free software. Either I've gotten a program that was a CRIPPLED advertisement for a better version or I've received a program that constantly DISPLAYS advertising while I use it or I had to go to a site filled with advertising to obtain it. Other sites want some of your PERSONAL INFORMATION and/or have you sign up for their newsletter before they let you obtain the supposedly free program. Either way IN MY EXPERIENCE there is no such thing as free software.

Someone Who's Never Come Across Free Software That Meets The Following Criteria:

- Isn’t A Crippled Advertisement For a Better Version.
- Doesn’t Constantly Display Advertising While In Use.
- Doesn’t Ask The Downloader To Go To a Website That Has Advertising On It.
- Doesn’t Ask For Personal Information To Download It.
- Doesnt Force You To Sign Up For a Newsletter Before Downloading.

I'm Appalled. However, Heres a Few Pieces Of Software That Meet That Criteria:
- CDex From http://cdexos.sourceforge.net
- Video Lan Player From http://www.videolan.org
- WinMX From http://www.winmx.com
Among Others Too Numerous To List. All Free, No Advertising, No Personal Information Required, No Newsletter Signup, And Certainly Not a Crippled Or Watered Down Version. I’m Glad I Could Restore Your Faith In Free (For The Sake Of It) Software Developer Lantec.

As For CygnusXII, I Could Write a Book On The Fallacies Of Your Arguing Techniques. I Think More Than One Person In This thread Has Pointed Out The Errors Of Your Ways. Word Of Advice, Stop Reading The College Text Books.

Alternate Setting

on Feb 13, 2005

I didn't even know it was supposed to be a serious debate. I figured that as a rant - it was to be taken as that - a scream with some grammar.

bizen

on Feb 13, 2005

this guy cygnus has definitely got some isuues

Jafo

on Feb 13, 2005

Citizen WOWfactor.555. ...take it from me...you will gain more respect from your audience if you treat them with similar...by amending your typing method. It is not an affectation....it is an irritation ....as it is unnatural and retinally hurtfull. The human eye is not accustomed to constant font variation, as years of schooling teaches you to scan words not read letters individually.

Your typing forces the reader to adjust...and most will simply ignore it...and you.

Trythisforsizeandseeifyouliketheequivalentdonetoyouinreturn.

bakerstreet

on Feb 13, 2005

Whee. For a minute I thought someone had resurrected an old skinz.org discussion.

I like the free stuff. I'm more apt to use free stuff, simply because I am less apt to feel that I "need" something if I have to pay for it.

That said, I paid $600 for Photoshop and $129 each for two upgrades when I could have just used the Gimp. Why? Because after using both I felt it was worth it.

That also said, will I shell out cash for the CS upgrade? Nope. Why? Because I don't need it. They haven't offered enough new features to make me feel that I do.

That's why I exist right in the middle. I think free stuff is great. It is there when I have dinky stuff I want to do and don't want to pay to do. It also puts payware stuff in perspective, and drives innovation. Adobe knows that if they slack off much, the Gimp will get just close enough to them that people like me won't see enough difference to merit the expense.

Everyone wins. Sure, I think free stuff should have driven the price point down on some things that have stayed expensive. I think that is mostly because people LIKE to pay a lot sometimes, just to feel like they have bought something of quality.

In the end, the consumer rules. If MS slacks off and their OS becomes less useful or too expensive, Linux is there. The same can be said now for almost any piece of software. Abundant freeware and quality payware just gives us all more more choices and keeps the established businesses on their toes.

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