Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Losing jobs overseas...
Published on March 5, 2005 By Draginol In Business

American college graduates are making themselves increasingly vulnerable to outsourcing. I'm not the only one who thinks this. A top Intel executive has expressed this concern too.

The problem is that American technology workers have a lethal combination upon graduation: A sense of entitlement and a lack of skills. 

The sense of entitlement is the from the belief that simply graduating with a degree in engineering, computer science, information technology, etc. somehow should entitle them to a high paying ($40k to $50k) job right away. 

The lack of skills has to do with the poor quality of college education these days in these fields. They don't keep up well. I've yet to meet a technology major college graduate who actually benefited from their formal "education".  The talented people we meet on the net are often in a scenario where we have to simply wait for them to finish college before hiring them.  Their degree made no difference in hiring, them, it simply delayed their hiring and slowed down their development on projects with us.

How much someone makes is dependent on how much "wealth" they produce.  A person making $40k per year has to be able to generate at least $120k in "wealth" to be fully secure in their position.

If I make a product that will make $1 million during its effective lifetime, I obviously can't spend more than that if I want to stay in business.  Since Americans don't really care that much about WHERE something is made, my products and services have to compete with products made by people all over the world (as well as with "freeware").  Look at all the people who bellyache'd last month about RightClick costing $14.95!

So how much we can pay someone is dependent on how much they produce. Typically, it takes quite awhile for someone to be able to produce high quality results in high enough quantity.  Many (most) Americans aren't willing to go without even if it's to their long-term benefit to sacrifice short-term.

When I founded Stardock, I was very poor for the first few years.  In its first year, the company made less than $15k. My (ahem) "salary" was obviously less than that.  It wasn't for a long while before I was able to make more than what I could have made had I simply taken an engineering job. But that short-term sacrifice led to greater long-term opportunities. Increasingly, I see fewer Americans willing to do that -- but I also see plenty of Europeans who are willing to.

The Americans we hire in the technology area typically start at far less for two reasons. One, because we're a fun place to work at for most people and two, because we have a consistent record of rewarding those who increase their skills and output with significant increases in salary. 

But where we can't find someone to do the job, we don't discriminate, we'll look to anyone we can do the job and that increasingly means Europeans who are willing to sacrifice short-term for long term gain.

If Americans want to make the big bucks right out of college without fear of being outsourced then they need to dramatically increase their skills. And the first step would be to get our education system improved so that college graduates don't require a few years of training before they can produce anything of real value.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Mar 06, 2005

Many (most) Americans aren't willing to go without even if it's to their long-term benefit to sacrifice short-term.

nor are many 'american' businesses as is evidenced by their rush to outsource.  as larry points out, considerations of security and homeland economics are being compromised by focusing on short-term profits.

As companies like Microsoft, IBM, General Electric, Dell and Intel send jobs to India, Pakistan and China, are we going to be surprised when these nations reverse engineer the technologies? Would you feel comfortable, to offer an example that I don't think is too far-fetched, knowing that the software that controls our ICBMs was written abroad?

of even more personal and immediate concern to me is what is being done to protect my financial and medical data (like information necessary to process tax returns, credit card transactions, diagnostic results, etc) when its transmitted into the hands of third world workers?  while the majority may be good n faithful servants...

Every time a job leaves America, the number of people paying taxes declines, increasing the burden on the rest of us.


and that's just only one of the easily predictable economic consequences.  in the very short span of 60 years, japan's global reputation for making cheap junk was surplanted by its reputation for making inexpensive excellence. unfortunately for japan,  korea and taiwan did that as well for less--as china and india are doing now. 

if those american workers whose jobs have moved on held stock in the entities by whom they were formerly employed, it could be reasonably argued that outsourcing might benefit our country rather than just the subset of those whose businesses are headquartered here.  

If companies risked losing significent Federal contracts, they would select their employees based on different criteria.


or at least more carefully consider the short-term sacrifice vs long-term benefits ratio recommended to newly graduated job-seekers.

on Mar 06, 2005
I think part of the problem is that people have benchmarked their expectations on the job market of the dot-com/Y2K bubble.

on Mar 06, 2005
Are American companies "greedy"? Sure fine. Just as greedy as the American consumer.

And let's not forget who owns these companies - it's you and me, not some anonymous boogey-man

Every time you spend a dollar, you cast a vote!
on Mar 06, 2005
Wow, the DNC should read this thread. Apparently decent paying jobs are not as rare as they would have us believe! No wonder Kerry couldn't convince enough American voters how awful things are!!!! ;~D
on Mar 06, 2005
And while we're at it, were it not for the election of Ronald Reagan, the US could be abut as socialist today as Europe.


from 1945 until 1980 what percentage of families with one or more employed wage earner received assistance in the form of foodstamps, medicare and housing subsidies?

from 1988 until now has that changed? how significantly?
on Mar 06, 2005

To me it's straight forward:

(1) Products and services compete for the buying dollars of consumers.

(2) Those consumers rarely, if ever, make an issue of where those products and servers were created.

(3) Price is a major factor in someone's buying decision.

Therefore:

I can either: (a) Just hire American developers off the college assembly line and pay them $40k to $50k right off the bat and be uncompetitive in th emarket thus eventually going out of business or ( Hire the best and brightest developers from around the entire world who may or may not cost as much as that American college grad.

on Mar 07, 2005
The key to this really is Americans when they come out of college just aren't worth a whole heck of a lot. As a recent college Grad (Dec '03) I fully agree with that. My degree wasn't worth the paper it was printed on really. I can say "Yeah, I spent 4 years at Penn State and got this note saying I was there" but I can't say that I learned anything in terms of actual job skills. The fact that I have a job at all (and one that pays in that 40-50 range Brad points out) is a miracle unto itself. I had a hell of a time getting job offers period, regardless of starting salary.

My degree didn't teach me how to code, how to work with networks, run systems. Hell, most of the people I graduated with in my IT program don't even know how to use basic DOS commands. What (very) little I do know, I learned myself through part-time jobs or playing around on my own at home.

If I were to guess my real job value, at this stage of the game I'd estimate it around 35-40k depending on where I had to live. That's much lower than were I am at now. I was just very lucky in this case. I can't expect to be so lucky when I move on to my next job.

It's a tough spot to be in right now for college students. When this batch entered college, the world was great, the salaries were high and jobs were plentiful... hell, they didn't even need to know anything. Now salaries are more realistic, jobs in the field are getting scarce and "entry level" jobs want 5+ years experience.
on Mar 07, 2005
The key to this really is Americans when they come out of college just aren't worth a whole heck of a lot.


Part of the problem is, we are expecting Universities to be Job Training and Placement centers. Something that they were never meant to be.

on Mar 07, 2005
Ah, one of my favorite subjects. I have been in the software development business for 20+ years. Starting as a developer in a software company writing BASIC, assembler and C code on a variety of platforms from CP/M, TRS-DOS, Applie, CoCo's and the new fangled IBM PC. You might say I was writing software before it was cool and paid a lot. I am sure there are older but I certainly was there from the birth of the micro-computer on up when my fellow graduates went off to program in Cobol I was making the mistake of programmiug toys.
Anyway, I digress. I agree with what Brad is saying. The mid to late nineties and the .COM growth really messed it up. Before the .COM bust I remember interviewing consultants (who would ever work for 1 company!?) fresh out of school demanding 80,90, 100+ an hour for C++ development with only 1 or 2 years of experience. They were rock and roll stars in their own mind. Not that they were that good, just that the law of supply and demand was running the show. The salaries and perks were rediculous. Now, I would be lying if I did not say I made hay when the sun was shining also. The difference was that I new it was a bubble and did not adjust my lifestyle to match. There were many a 20 something who expressed to me that they felt this was the future and there was no way it would change. Level out maybe....
The it all came crashing down. Jobs were lost and when replaced the income was much lower. Now instead of billing at $100 an hour (208k a year) they were finding jobs at the mid $50's or even lower. Houses and cars had to be sold. One developer (very good C++ guy I might add) that boasted about his 5000+ sq foot house two doors down from Troy Aikman has since settled into a modest 2500 sq foot house.
There for a couple of years salaries and rates were not too far out of line to what I thought they should be. Of course they are trending upwards now, but I do not think they will reach the level of "out of whack" that it was before.
Offshoring, in my point of view, is a direct result of the heady 90's. I tell the current grads I meet when they come asking for the moon that they are pricing themselves out of a job, especially when they are Java/.NET developers working in a corporate environment. This trend is not limited to tech workers. A good friend of mine who is a research scientist for Motorola recently told me that he is on a team that is in the process of patenting a new invention. He says that an Indian law firm is doing all the patent work and then when it is complete it will be sent back to a US patent lawyer for sign off. I have heard similar stories in the health care field but no first hand knowledge.
An argument can be made that this is a good thing for the country as it allows technology to move forward here while the current tech is handled by seemingly "less-talented" people. I am not convinced of this argument but there it is.
on Mar 07, 2005

The key to this really is Americans when they come out of college just aren't worth a whole heck of a lot. As a recent college Grad (Dec '03) I fully agree with that. My degree wasn't worth the paper it was printed on really. I

I disagree with you, but probably not for the reason you state.  I know in the IT field, things just change too fast for you to learn Job skills while in College.  What you do learn is how to learn, and you also demonstrate to future employers that you have the will and dedication to learn.  Many employers dont care what you get your degree in, just in the fact you have one.

on Mar 07, 2005
As one of those fresh new college grads at the end of the Dot Com bust (Grad with BSCE in May 2001) I agree, yet disagree with some of the points laid out here. As in any interview or hiring decision, it must take into accounts many things and one of which is just the salary. Type of Job, benifits, etc... Of course, I am sure American benifits will a jack up the difference in compensation between an offshore and American employee.

When I graduated I had 2 job offers and I somewhat restricted myself to the East Coast and Midwest. In both job offers, I believe it was due to my experiences during school and prior to school (I was in the US Navy and the job was with the gov). The offers were about what to be expected ~40-50 k. I hoped for more of course, but didn't get it and even had a couple, that didn't even look at me any further. Friends, who I graduated with, were still looking for a job up to 1 full year later. Yes, it was bleak and I got somewhat lucky, yet I didn't.

I worked my a$$ of during school and did several various Internships/part-time engineering related jobs as well as participated in Formula SAE and had an ambitious Senior Design project. A Hybrid go-kart. In the end, I believe this is what put me ahead of others and told my potential employers, that I was someone they wanted on their team.

I took a job as a Project Engineer working on battery packs for hybrid vehicles. The company I am with is now over 200 employees (about 40 in systems engineering) and at the time, I was 1 of ~4-7 system engineers working on the battery systems. Granted, there were ~30 others who worked in the company as well.

Anyways, I think it depends on the company, what they are looking for and what the potential employee brings to the table. I do believe, that to some degree new grads can benifit a company greatly, since they are paid lower than others, can bring relatively new ideas and insights to the company and if they are go-getters, then yes, they can contribute. Many college grads, who worked on extra-curricular activities, which enhance them professionally have already learned to contribute some.

Granted, maybe not as someone may like, but either way, there is almost always a ramp up time for any new employee. I do sometimes wish I would have went to a 'big' company, which has already established a career growth path for new college grads, but of course those big companies attract a LOT of competition for those few precious positions as well.
on Mar 07, 2005
No, Universities aren't meant to be job-training. But they should at least teach the foundational skills for whatever field they are for. IT degrees should have a strong foundational knowledge of technology/networks/computing. CompSci grads have the foundation in programing. Most IT programs are bastardized business programs with a bit of "Tech mumbo-jumbo" tossed in.

In the case of PSU, it was a program that was researched and developed during the 90s, when everything was booming and they needed smart people with big-picture thinking and no real tech skills to manage the hordes of tech workers out there. Now, the whole thing bottomed out and companies want people with solid skills in at least one area. Be it networks, coding, security... whatever.

We're not asking that 4-year schools become training centers for coders, network admins and security experts, but to put out people wo have a solid base of knowledge to start from. As it stands now, we come out of school with a ton of crap floating in our heads that doesn't always fit together. I wanted to take additional technical courses to get better value out of my education, but I couldn't because I had to fit in an art class, or a social sciences class. Yeah, I'm well-rounded as a result, but I missed opportunities that would have made me more marketable as a result.

There are a lot of 2-year tech programs out there that deliver those base skills, but unfortunately unless you have a degree from a 4yr school, it's a lot harder to be taken seriously.

Schools need to readjust their curriculums
Graduates need to readjust their expectations
Employers need to reassess their requirements and expectations (don't discount self-taught people, or those who did 2yr programs)
on Mar 07, 2005
I can either: (a) Just hire American developers off the college assembly line and pay them $40k to $50k right off the bat and be uncompetitive in th emarket thus eventually going out of business or ( Hire the best and brightest developers from around the entire world who may or may not cost as much as that American college grad.


and we can either: (a) Just buy Konfabulator, which is programmed by Arlo Rose in California, and not in Argentina(like DesktopX) or ( Just use one of the great freeware ones.

And despite what Kobrano may believe, I have no problem finding top notch developers -- reality check, we dominate our market completely.


Reality check, most companies I know that "Dominate" their market, are roughly 100 times larger than Stardock. Whats missing from the puzzle there? Are you sure its as dominating as you think? Is what you dominate in, so limited in client base that nobody substantial cares to enter the market? I'll let you ponder those things.

Remember, it works both ways, and its a two way street. Your condemnation of American workers is at best, an indictment of your own moral fabric and character, and frankly, rather insulting. Also the mere fact that a majority of your employees work overseas, and your claim you want "Keep jobs here" by buying an American car is probably one of the most gross examples of hypocrisy i've seen in months.
on Mar 07, 2005
This trend is not limited to tech workers. A good friend of mine who is a research scientist for Motorola recently told me that he is on a team that is in the process of patenting a new invention. He says that an Indian law firm is doing all the patent work and then when it is complete it will be sent back to a US patent lawyer for sign off. I have heard similar stories in the health care field but no first hand knowledge.
An argument can be made that this is a good thing for the country as it allows technology to move forward here while the current tech is handled by seemingly "less-talented" people. I am not convinced of this argument but there it is.


outsourcing may not solely impact technicians but it is inexorably tangled up in technology. an equally good argument could be made that--assuming anyone besides those with sizeable stockholdings in the companies shipping jobs overseas could afford to take advantage of it--this was the dawn of the new american age of leisure.

if those who so loudly support even the most harebrained american foreign policy decisions and disparage the the opinions and actions of anyone who doesnt live up to their standard of uberpatriotism would expend their energy locating, purchasing and talking up american-made products, we might not now find ourselves in this discussion.
on Mar 07, 2005
The skinning and customization market is still small, but growing, just as Stardock is small, but growing. Microsoft (for example) is a huge company and so can dominate many large markets. But large companies are not the only ones around. It is possible to dominate as a small company as well, if you are a small market. However, to do so it is important to keep your edge, and that requires hiring the very best people for the job, and that is really what this whole debate is about. You seem to be claiming that if there is a job, there is a US developer coming out of college who is ideal for it. I claim that this is not always the case.

To my knowledge, Stardock is not unwilling to hire US talent when it is available - both local and remote. It is simply that sometimes the best and most appropriate people for the job are not in the US. Bright people with bright ideas can spring up everywhere, and limiting the company's scope of hiring/employment/contracting to the US would cause big problems. Imagine if Stardock had not allowed skinners from the UK to contribute to WinCustomize - you think maybe they would have gone to competing sites? Well, the fact is that now some of the best skinners are in the UK. Does that mean that Stardock should not work with them when it seems like a good idea?

As for hiring overseas workers on contract, this is actually becoming less of an issue. Stardock had to use contracted development with royalties in the past because coming out of the OS/2 years it could not afford to pay people on a salary. Fortunately, some of the best people were available on those terms . . . but not all were in the US. Considering that one of these (few) contract developers is the person responsible for WindowBlinds (among other things), I feel that questions of quality are moot. As Brad mentioned, Stardock worked with people who were willing to deferred income (and I think most worked at least part-time in another job) in order to reap benefits in the future. As time has gone on, Stardock has started to directly employ more and more people, although some types of workers still tend to work on contract because that is the nature of their work (skin artists, for example). Even there, we have mormegil - from California!

I must admit that I am personally involved in this. I am a UK citizen who will shortly be moving to the US for a job with Stardock, having been involved with them online for almost five years now. I feel I should point out that the US government is not making this easy, which does tend to encourage outsourcing of the type you appear to fear most of all - the whole job, to another country. Stardock would probably have be willing to take me on as a contracted worker, but that's not what they wanted - they preferred to have someone on site, in America. Because if they can't get the people they want most from the US, isn't the next best thing to have another country pay to bring up a new graduate, then bring them into the country and have them pay taxes without representation to the US for the next 10 years?

I suspect you may have personal reasons for posting here on this topic. If so, I suggest you consider whether arguing the point is really the best use of your time, as is not going to change anything that's happened in the past. Moreover, I feel the view you have is not likely to help you in the future, either. Like it or not, the US does not have a monopoly on talent - tech skills are global, and as companies are created for the specific purpose of making money for their shareholders they must take account of that. If the appropriate way to do this is to hire developers from Europe who happen to know what they're doing and avoid graduates in the US who don't (and yet expect large salaries off the bat), then that's what they'll do. If they want those salaries, they'll have to prove that they're worth it. And what's wrong with that?
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