Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Damned if you do...damned if you don't...
Published on August 2, 2005 By Draginol In Business

A long-time friend of mine is facing real difficulties right now over at the site he helped create -- deviantART.com.

It's almost a text-book example of business men vs. engineers on the surface.  The idea guys, the founders, the visionaries versus the suits, money men, and biz guys.

In these situations, the biz guys almost always win because they are the ones who have put together all the legal paperwork for the company and can make sure they are legally unassailable by founders who, too often, agree via a handshake or via email.

At Stardock, I founded the company alone. I was both the engineer and the biz guy.  I don't have to contend with a board of directors or shareholder votes.  This comes up on occasion when some infuriated customer or user sends a nastygram to our customer service department because I've told them off or whatever.  Typically, companies don't reach the size of Stardock without investors and business developers.  I would be the first to admit that we'd probably be a lot more successful financially today if we had a few suits helping to run things.  But next time I'm tempted, I'll remind myself of what Jark has gone through.

We now enter the realm of raw speculation.  But back in 2000, a couple of guys had an idea -- to create an art community called deviantART.  It would be a bit different than other sites in that the focus of the site would be about the artists and not the users. This was a radical idea at the time.  When Stardock created WinCustomize.com the focus of the site was on the users first and the artists second.  It was assumed, with I think good reason at the time, that there's a lot more users than artists.  But deviantART believed that there were millions and millions of would-be artists out there and no central place for them to congregate.

As a result, deviantART automatically gave each artist their own sub-domain and encouraged them to interact with one another.  For instance, mine is frogboy2.deviantart.com.  The primary visionary in all this, from what I recall, was a 28 year old visionary named Scott Jarkoff.  With his friend "Matteo" they coded the basics of the site. 

The site grew at a steady rate until they teamed up with a very young guy named Angelo who was, I believe, around 19 years old at the time.  From what I've seen, he is a gifted young business man.  And he was able to provide the site what amounted to unlimited bandwith.  He also brought in guys who created a network infrastructure to support much higher traffic.  The site was relaunched and quickly grew from being an Alexa ranked site of around 6,000 to an Alexa ranked site of 800 (800th most popular in the world).  Today it's in the top 500.

Both guys deserve immense credit for what they've done.  But there is always the question of ultimate control.  At the end of the day, one guy is going to call the shots at any company.  And that guy became Angelo (Spyed).   Over time, he came to control not just the behind the scenes business but slowly emerged as the front-man for the company.  As a result, he tended, especially in the media, to get the lion's share of credit for deviantART even though it was really mostly Jark who had the vision and overall idea and most importantly, the elbow greese to put the site in a position to go to the next level.  Jark and Matteo created deviantART.  Angelo took it to the next level. 

A lot of the issue today has to do with a basic disagreement -- what was Angelo's involvement at the beginning? Can he really be considered a co-founder?  That's not for me to say.  But I don't think it's accurate to put Angelo on the same level as Jark and Matteo.   To me, the issue is simple -- remove Jark and would there have been a deviantART? The answer, I believe, is no.  Take Angelo out and there's still a deviantART albeit a much smaller, niche site.

Stardock today is a multi-million dollar company.  But if some big time business guy came on and took over as CEO and took Stardock to being a multi-billion dollar company, would it be right to call him the founder?  After all, if Stardock were a $10 billion company, then of how much significance are the days when the company's grosses were measured in the low millions range? Is that time really significant next to the billion-dollar verison? 

How you answer that is probably similar to how one would look at the deviantART situation.  deviantART today brings in around 20 million unique visitors per month.  Once Angelo took over, the site went from being a 300k uniques per month to a 3 million uniques per month within a year. How significant is the time when the site was really little more than a niche art site with some cool ideas? 

I'm an engineer so I take things literally. Jark and Matteo founded deviantART and Angelo made it a business success.  Jark's motivation was probalby doing something unique, cool, and interesting and his initial desired reward comes in the form of kudos, acclaimations, and glory (for lack of a better word).  Hence, I suspect that that what stings Jark more than the money is that Spyed (Angelo) seems to have rewritten things such that he was the visionary and driving force behind the site rather than Jark.  As a result, Angelo's in the position to reap both the financial benefits and the glory of the site.

Don't underestimate glory.  I confess that I myself worry more about "the community" than making "big bucks" very often.  Money is merely a score-card, recognition matters more to me and I suspect Jark is much the same.  Perhaps from Jark's standpoint, Spyed is attempting to get money and recognition for things that he hasn't warranted said recognition.

I think we'll know more over the coming weeks.  In the meantime, I guess I'll take solace in the words of my wife "See, it may a bit of a bummer not to have partners to have helped build the business but you don't have to worry about someone usurping me."  Well, not for a high price-tag anyway.

 

 


Comments
on Aug 02, 2005
Its a common problem among creators they believe people who help them to be there friends when they are nothing more then employee , Management is never what make a company they only give the direction the company is going , complete what the inventor cannot or dont whant to do , and most of the time they dont even take any responsabilitie when thing go badly. When you create something make sure you own 95% of it and are in full control , your the one taking the risk not management , the guy whas hired to do a job not hired to take over the company and assets. The guy clearly did a take over with intention of taking control of the company and has harmed the value , assets and reality to fit his plans , the only answer is to sue him for everything he got has he stole everything from you and are trying to erase you from existence.

Remember the guy whas an employee , and he stole assets and gave them to himself. When is job whas to take care and make more assets to the real owners. He is a corporate thief in my view.
on Aug 02, 2005
The best-written and most temperate article on a volatile subject. Thanks for the clarity.

Here's to Jark and Matteo and the visionaries everywhere. Without vision, there are no profit centers, no products, no innovations. Lets face it, without vision, there is no business.
on Aug 02, 2005
I think some lawyers somewhere are going to be turning a tidy income shortly....
on Aug 02, 2005
Oops...forgot to login...
on Aug 02, 2005
I've differed with Jark to an extreme from time to time, but the place wouldn't be the same.

To me, good, if machiavellian, business would have been to keep him on in whatever lesser role was uncomfortable, and eventually let him storm away. That wouldn't have been any more 'moral', but it would have at least avoided the massive response we are getting now.

The beloved co-worker loses their office, and people shake their heads sadly. The beloved co-worker gets a box and some guy to watch over him as he cleans out his desk, well, you get a different reaction. This to me was a bad move, but one that the site can weather (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view).

Regardless, no one should walk away from this many years of this kind of committment holding nothing but a box. It was my intention to pony up and actually pay for my use of Stardock and Deviantart in the next few weeks. I'm going to force myself to skin something if it kills me. For now, I guess it will just be Stardock.
on Aug 03, 2005
I think this is a sad event.

Business wise though, even if Spyed does NOW own deviantART through contracts and agreements made, this was a bad business move on his part. It does not make business sense at all and he totally undervalued Jark's fan base or the overall intelligence of DA's artists and general users.

Not to mention the fact that, from users to artists to even companies like The Skin Factory, feel like they are due some sort of reasoning for this act.

It’s like the owners of Google being tossed out by the vet CEO currently in charge. Google will survive, but the fan base that Yahoo (take a look at the Konfabulator purchase… its not for widgets, its for people… particularly developers… to get to love Yahoo’s API’s) and MSN would DIE TO HAVE would probably leave.

Deviant Art needs that fan base and trust to become more valuable. Hell, Jark could have been just a figurehead, earning little or no money while Spyed got millions. That would have been a more preferred business move than the current one.




I see this as a move that Spyed made because he wanted to do something with Deviant Art that Jark totally disagreed with. What seems to be going around now is that Spyed wants the site to be made up of just major artists. As for the would be artist, artist admirer, or just plain message board freak, they would be no longer as welcome. They would be, from now on, just 'users' and treated as such (instead of being potential artists).

I am sure this strategy has money all over it. It may even be the less risky of an idea to close DA to only established artists joining to earn money than the idea of keeping it open as it is and creating deals (like Friendster did with Fat Actress and Pamela Anderson or MySpace does with REM, Gorillaz, and Eminem) to publishers to create their own user site and interact with the public or artists.

Me, personally, since I am creating a site much like DA (yes I know, this could be looked on as spam... esourcemagazine) I would have gone with allowing everyone who wanted to be a star to be one. To me, especially with the over population of reality TV, people want to dream of being something else. Deviant Art gave people a way of being a artists without giving up their day jobs. They could become poets, skinners, painters, 3D render-ers (is that a real word?) and so on. That is what I plan on doing with esourcemagazine... why would you want to make DA into a site like MSN when you have the power of fan-boys like Google? Why would you push away people who are your lead users who will spread the word?

Do you know how long it takes to get a new customer? Do you know keeping a current customer happy costs less than getting a new one?




Business is business. I don't like what is going on over there at DA, but I could at least say in the end it was a good business move... but I can't even say that! It was a lousy business move. Do you know how many people left? What if Bleedman goes too (one of the top ten artists?) How many people will go along with him when he takes his art off of DA?

This business move lost what is most valuable to a business and that is trust. Why am I paying for a subscription when the people who I want to be in a community with are gone? Will your site be open tomorrow? Will I waste countless hours setting up my account and pay you money just for you to tell me "sorry, chapter 11... you stuff has been deleted'.

????

I'm on Modblog.com and if Modblog were to go under, at least I can trust Gorman and Mike to leave the stuff up for a few months so I can get it off their servers... will Spyed or Liquidsoft do this after the Jarkoff Maneuver???


See what I mean? An explanation would be cool, but by looking at the About page on deviantART (the very same page who USED to tell the story of how DA was founded), I wonder if this is just going to be someone trying to pull the wool over my eyes?

People are even afraid to say anything because they don't want to loose their stuff or their account??? What is that about?

COME ON!!!!

I am not against Spyed for making a business move (for good or naught) nor am I going to be all 'Jark, why didn't you read those contracts!!!'. What I am against is this over all direction and ideas of the move in of itself. Business is business, but this here does not make sense............. UNLESS THIS IS A VAST MARKETING GIMMICK TO HAVE THE COMMUNITY GET MORE INVOLVED BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE BECOMING LESS CONNECTED.

Is this a gimmick?
on Aug 03, 2005
The site goes on, some customers will make lotsa noise for a few weeks and it will all die down and things will return to normal. Jarks fanboys will moan and complain, people will threaten to start their own version of the site, and legal threats will fly. But at the end of the day, I bet nothing happens and in a few weeks nobody will care.

Much ado about nothing.
on Aug 03, 2005
"But at the end of the day, I bet nothing happens and in a few weeks nobody will care."


Other than the loss of several admins that were of huge benefit to the site. Public relations is a pain with a site like Deviantart, especially since people have to trust you not to abuse their uploads.

The admins that walked off inspired confidence in the people who are devoted to the place. Discount that if you like, but go back and look at what happened to skinz.org when they shifted management practices.
on Aug 04, 2005
This is basically a noncomment intended to be feedback, though. I am extremely grateful for the information the article gave a new "member" like me on the whole structure, history and soul, even marketing styles of all Stardock and SD subsites + close coherent neighbor sites. Also the comments displayed more explanations supplementing the article well. I sure hope more whiners and users overfocussed on miscellaneous details or personal things tune in to the jest of the foundation as a whole here and restart their viewpoint and actions after havin done so.

It explains why I have not gotten positive feedback when suggesting many ways how to get 2,000 more WC subscrips coming in Frogboy said were annually missing on a thread started up by 14year old Bash2cool, who won a skin award but cant register. (he doesnt want to anyway, his fault). For years I have learned how much fun and rewards u can have with affordable marketing. I thought some sites mentioned here were en-dangered and almost volunteered to do marketing work free. Now I realize why starkers contradicts himself suggesting shares himself and then saying, oh, no, these sites are about soul, spirit, free art uploading and should not get too premium or profit, forget about my idea.

Gradually, I am understanding both sides more which do clash. I wont do free work anymore for whoever does not want marketing. Question is, will good sites always survive on unorganized idealism. It is a big problem not to have people back out of what looks too similar to existing spam like shark professional sites. For a while, I thought Stardock was trying to outdo microsoft by making everything compatible to Stardock only. Even if that were true, still it could have been caused by other companies products really having been inferior in the past.

I just hope, au contraire, this whole great complex and spirit will not break down too early one day because of being opposed to basic marketing improvements. Even if Superman came in for PR and increased success a thousand per cent, he should get his millions, but not the main credit, just win an award. To make this work right, creators/engineers have to do what they hate + dont have time + money for always, first outrule legally that superman gets too big for his breeches. The day should have 49 hours, u should get refills when buying purses. Superman should not be able to change the whole art or setup name/system so much all the founders are left with is a blog company like google founders now have. They say they made some deal though, now have a job, are not totally broke, and insiders still know who the true creators are. Depending on the deal I could still be proud and rich enough if I were them. Everyone wants to TAKE a skin, cheap subscrip, almost free subdomain, and the power of google like marketing, but then they whine instead of SACRIFICING to the price that calls for. Newbies stumbling here think WC needs medium sized marketing boosters not too destructive plus legal measures against the booster getting too bad after all, and think obviously the founders can afford still not doing this yet even though they are missin a few subscrips. I am glad to learn Stardock is so big. It is all very creative and helpful for anybody learning. Thanks to Stardocks sponsors for enabling 10percent of my comment, and to the few people who still register and the many uploaders including minors for enabling the other 90percent!
on Aug 04, 2005
Jark seems to have a loyal following and I bet if he opened another site like DA he would get alot of traffic pretty fast. And if he implemented the ideas that have been promised on DA I am sure DA would see a mass move to the new site.

The only thing is that means giving up on the site he created. It’s hard to let go of something you built and is now successful.
on Aug 04, 2005
It’s hard to let go of something you built and is now successful So true. Extremely sad. Seems unnecessary. A new name just isnt the same thing as the famous name u were first to make and key to making fame of. That name should stay plus a subtitle for site name explaining founder and friendly merger and mottos of both.
on Aug 04, 2005
I think for Jark..the difficult thing to give up is his passion...dA was/is his passion...his love child, that he and Matteo built from the ground up. As artists...passion is a word we all relate to...and it is like the back of our hand, a limb, an innnate part of us.

He is being given a raw deal...with no recognition, to boot.
on Aug 06, 2005
Does anybody think this will be a hoax come tomorrow?

Just wondering...
on Aug 06, 2005
If it is, it would be a monstrous one. Good lord, can you imagine? I'll readily admit they got me if it is.