Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Don't muck with the constitution for political gain
Published on February 24, 2004 By Draginol In Republican

A constitutional amendment forbidding gay marriage? Ack. For the record, I oppose gay marriage. But I'm pro civil-unions. But I am definitely not in favor of mucking around with the constitution in order to thwart gays trying to twist the definition of marriage to now fit them.

The issue is fairly complex. We could probably get a majority of people who would favor gays having the right to civil unions. The problem is that civil unions don't provide any federal rights. Civil unions provide the same benefits to couples as marriage does, but none of the federal benefits (such as social security). The real problem is that marriage is something the government shouldn't have gotten involved with in the first place. It should have had civil unions between two people with marriage remaining a purely religious institution -- i.e. a religious wrapper on top of a federal civil union.  But it didn't and now we have this idiotic mess.

The problem I have with gay marriage is that is that I really don't like "special interests" (and let's face it, the gay rights advocates are about as "special interest" as you get) trying to shove their values down the throats of the vast majority of Americans. Marriage has been defined as being between a man and a woman for thousands of years. That is what marriage is. Don't shoot the messenger but marriage has long been defined and no tiny special interest group should have the right to change marriage for their own sake. I mean hell, I know I'm not "cool". But maybe I'd like to be cool. Maybe if I make a big enough stink I can force the courts to redefine what cool is to fit my description (nerdy opinionated guy).  In other words, it's a semantics issue.

But again, we have this mess. I don't like the idea of gays being able to call their unions "marriage". But I strongly oppose the federal government withholding any rights from any two consenting adults. Heck, I also firmly believe that civil unions should extend to any number of people. I actually think it would be beneficial to society if civil unions were extended to multiple people. Think about it, you could have families or groups of families able to legally share their resources more seamlessly. Sure, the share per person would be much smaller.  We already have these concepts on the Internet in the form of clans or guilds and what not where groups work under an official framework to help one another that is recognized by the controlling authority.  Even here on JoeUser.com we have blog groups where people can get together and combine their blogs into one.  Why shouldn't individuals do the same?

So rather than trying to screw with the constitution, the President could instead propose to try to be...you know...a leader. He could propose a federal law allowing civil unions between any two people. This could later be extended upwards to more people. The civil unions would then have the same exact federal and state protections marriage has while allowing marriage to slowly evolve into a purely religious institution which becomes an issue only between the individuals and their church.

I am a strong believer in democracy. And I know most Americans are against gay marriage. But at the same time, I think most Americans could be convinced of the validity for federal civil union laws. Consenting adults should not be legally restricted in what sort of legal arrangements they wish to enter into.

Bush has really made a mistake by taking such a militant line. I mean that statistically too. His "base" tends to be of people who hold the constitution to be quite sacred. People like myself. I would rather see the courts rule that gays can be "married" than add an amendment to the constitution. He missed an opportunity to be a leader of a nation rather than a leader of a political party today. He has also opened the door to his opposition, John Kerry, who can now play the role of moderate by espousing the viewpoint I just wrote about here. Marriage no, constitution sanctity yes, federal civil unions yes.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 25, 2004
He's got a point, I wasn't going to vote for Bush before, and now I'm really not going to vote for Bush.

Cheers
on Feb 25, 2004
"InfoGeek, you are right, currently they wouldn't have any rights outside of the state that got "married" in."

That's hard to say. Even if "Full Faith and Credit" isn't a hard-and-fast mandate, I dunno if any states have addressed the licenses yet. It seems like it would take legislation in the other states to make the licenses invalid. Has anyone's state here issued policy on the California licenses? I haven't heard anything at all. Seems like that would be something that the lower bureaucracy couldn't do themselves. Tax time is coming up for state income taxes.

The insurance industry has been strangely silent as well.
on Feb 25, 2004
I wasn't talking about the marriges. I was talking about civil unions. I am thinking that the civil union tack that Brad is using would be more palatable to the "bible belt".

IG
on Feb 25, 2004
The reason I think all references should be changed to civil unions is because otherwise, you will see a separate set of rules and privledges arise for the two classifications. Marraige is a religious concept that somehow got codified in US law, but since we've recently gotten into the argument of what the word means, changing it to "civil union" is the only way to remove the religious aspect of the argument. In the eyes of the law, it should not matter one damn bit whether you are gay or straight, there should NOT be a new set of rules.

Religious couples would be married, because that's a religious institution they're taking part in... Other couples would have a union as they are doing it beyond the bounds of a church.

One interesting question is what would we do if a major religion officially recognized homosexual marraiges? Would that change this argument?
on Feb 25, 2004
One interesting question is what would we do if a major religion officially recognized homosexual marraiges? Would that change this argument?

The "ones to be engaged" would have to show membership in the religion. Most priests I know "ask" you to take pre-marriage classes to see if you are ready. It would then involve the First Amendment (Freedom of Religion) aspect. However, I know of no religion, practiced in the United States, that by its doctrine allows same sex marriage.

Interesting thought though.

IG
on Feb 25, 2004
Reply By: Lucas (Anonymous User)
Alimony isn't even that common. One parter has to basically not work for many years (7, 9, something like that) before they have rights to collect alimony.


hmmm...don't know where you live, but that's not the case here. Mainly, you will end up paying alimony (for many different reasons) until the woman gets remarried. It has nothing to do with if she works or not. (I have two friends that recently dot divorced and both are paying alimony)

Really, todays "marriage" is in the form of the certificate that is issued. They have "husband" and "wife" on them (how do you determine that with same sex?) You can have a civil ceremony, and you still are "married". Maybe it ends up a semantics issue. If we ended up in a "union" versus a "marriage", would there be as big of a debate?

I really don't care which way it goes. I just wish that we could find a way that people could just live happy productive lives and not have to deal with this crap all the time.

on Feb 25, 2004
Made a suggestion about it on my blog:

"Then it struck me. Why should 'marriage' be a government issue at all? If 'civil unions' are the "nom du jour", and it is basically inevitable the all state governments are going to provide them, why not make that the sole governmental definition? As President Bush said, 'Marriage' is cultural, religious, and the foundation of what we know. The government is bureaucratic, secular, issuing marriage licenses with the reverence that they issue driver's licenses."

Seems to me if we are gonna give 'marriage' a deeper, spiritual meaning and worry about how it is officially defined, why define it officially at all? Let the 'civil' government sanction 'civil union', and leave marriage to private society to handle.
on Feb 26, 2004
Added to other things it will probably change my vote (I understand the need for sensible economic policies free trade etc.. and usually vote Republican). I was worried about the size of the tax cuts and the wisdom of them long before 911 or Iraq. I was all for the Iraq war, but now I wonder if we should be wasting our treasury there. And for a humorous note: all things being equal I would probably prefer a President that doesn't look like a dope sitting in front of the Pope---anybody remember that? Ram rod straight.... I was embarrassed for him.

I agree with Brad on a lot of things... however I believe unions between two people (homo or hetero) are qualitatively different than multiple partners... Multiple wives and partners to me seem to be arrangements of power and exploitation, not commitment and love. Also homosexual feelings are not the confined to a tiny minority...

I would not be anonymouos if Joe User would send me a confirmation email.... have been waiting about an hour now.


4Willy
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