Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Don't muck with the constitution for political gain
Published on February 24, 2004 By Draginol In Republican

A constitutional amendment forbidding gay marriage? Ack. For the record, I oppose gay marriage. But I'm pro civil-unions. But I am definitely not in favor of mucking around with the constitution in order to thwart gays trying to twist the definition of marriage to now fit them.

The issue is fairly complex. We could probably get a majority of people who would favor gays having the right to civil unions. The problem is that civil unions don't provide any federal rights. Civil unions provide the same benefits to couples as marriage does, but none of the federal benefits (such as social security). The real problem is that marriage is something the government shouldn't have gotten involved with in the first place. It should have had civil unions between two people with marriage remaining a purely religious institution -- i.e. a religious wrapper on top of a federal civil union.  But it didn't and now we have this idiotic mess.

The problem I have with gay marriage is that is that I really don't like "special interests" (and let's face it, the gay rights advocates are about as "special interest" as you get) trying to shove their values down the throats of the vast majority of Americans. Marriage has been defined as being between a man and a woman for thousands of years. That is what marriage is. Don't shoot the messenger but marriage has long been defined and no tiny special interest group should have the right to change marriage for their own sake. I mean hell, I know I'm not "cool". But maybe I'd like to be cool. Maybe if I make a big enough stink I can force the courts to redefine what cool is to fit my description (nerdy opinionated guy).  In other words, it's a semantics issue.

But again, we have this mess. I don't like the idea of gays being able to call their unions "marriage". But I strongly oppose the federal government withholding any rights from any two consenting adults. Heck, I also firmly believe that civil unions should extend to any number of people. I actually think it would be beneficial to society if civil unions were extended to multiple people. Think about it, you could have families or groups of families able to legally share their resources more seamlessly. Sure, the share per person would be much smaller.  We already have these concepts on the Internet in the form of clans or guilds and what not where groups work under an official framework to help one another that is recognized by the controlling authority.  Even here on JoeUser.com we have blog groups where people can get together and combine their blogs into one.  Why shouldn't individuals do the same?

So rather than trying to screw with the constitution, the President could instead propose to try to be...you know...a leader. He could propose a federal law allowing civil unions between any two people. This could later be extended upwards to more people. The civil unions would then have the same exact federal and state protections marriage has while allowing marriage to slowly evolve into a purely religious institution which becomes an issue only between the individuals and their church.

I am a strong believer in democracy. And I know most Americans are against gay marriage. But at the same time, I think most Americans could be convinced of the validity for federal civil union laws. Consenting adults should not be legally restricted in what sort of legal arrangements they wish to enter into.

Bush has really made a mistake by taking such a militant line. I mean that statistically too. His "base" tends to be of people who hold the constitution to be quite sacred. People like myself. I would rather see the courts rule that gays can be "married" than add an amendment to the constitution. He missed an opportunity to be a leader of a nation rather than a leader of a political party today. He has also opened the door to his opposition, John Kerry, who can now play the role of moderate by espousing the viewpoint I just wrote about here. Marriage no, constitution sanctity yes, federal civil unions yes.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Feb 25, 2004
"He could propose a federal law allowing civil unions between any two people."

The thing is, like you said, marriage isn't Federal business. States that oppose civil unions would see it as just as imposing. Marriage is a state issue, and *any* government involvement is gonna piss someone off. It's election season, so he picked people that wouldn't be voting for him anyway.

He should have never taken any stance on it at all. This is an election tactic for all the idiots that were asking why the President wasn't taking a stand. He should have just explained why it was none of his business in small words so they could understand it.
on Feb 25, 2004
The problem is that marriage isn't purely a state issue. You have federal benefits that aren't recognized with state civil unions.
on Feb 25, 2004

I completely agree. It's overkill, and brings too much politics into the Constitution.


I'm not well-versed in federal law, but if there are federal benefits for marriage, can't they just modify it to be federal benefits for civil unions (which could apply to gays while marriage applies to straights or civil unions could apply to both) so that they aren't recognizing the right for gays to wed but they are recognizing civil unions, which it seems most everybody agrees is fine?

on Feb 25, 2004
it seems we agree here almost entirely. I will take exception to your comment about gays " trying to shove their values down the throats of the vast majority of Americans." I think really they would just like to have the same opportunity and legal rights. So, maybe you overstated a little. I did appreciate your comment about Bush, uh, maybe being a leader? And you got lucky on this one, Kerry blew it. He did have an opening to make advantage of this and he screwed it, but that's Kerry for you.
on Feb 25, 2004
I'm an Aussie so I don't know what entitlements people get for marrying in Seppo-ville, but I don't get from your article whether you're against gays getting those entitlements if they enter a civil union or not.
BTW re your definiton of marriage (betw a guy and a girl), the institution has changed in many ways over its history. It also used to mean a lifelong legally binding contract, and then the C of E split from the Catholics so that the King could get a divorce easily (to simplify what happened).
It also used to mean the first time a person got the chance to have a root, but obviously that's rarely the case any more.
It also used to mean only a bond between two religious people, whereas atheists get married all the time now.
So that doesn't seem a very watertight argument to say that marriage has always been between a guy and a girl, and so gays shouldn't get married, because the definition of marriage has been constantly evolving for a long time now.
on Feb 25, 2004
"The real problem is that marriage is something the government shouldn't have gotten involved with in the first place. It should have had civil unions between two people with marriage remaining a purely religious institution -- i.e. a religious wrapper on top of a federal civil union. But it didn't and now we have this idiotic mess."

A great line! Great blog.
on Feb 25, 2004
Hrm, I had assumed that the federal government would recognize civil unions like any other.

I dunno, the whole "Full Faith & Credit" thing has always confused me, as anything that doesn't seem to be written, only understood. I can't remember what I had to present when my wife and I first did our taxes. I wonder how this will effect insurance *cough*abuses*cough* rates.
on Feb 25, 2004
Hrm, I had assumed that the federal government would recognize civil unions like any other.

I dunno, the whole "Full Faith & Credit" thing has always confused me, as anything that doesn't seem to be written, only understood. I can't remember what I had to present when my wife and I first did our taxes. I wonder how this will effect insurance *cough*abuses*cough* rates.


It does, the thing abou the "Full faith and Credit" clause of the constitution is that it only binds contracts state to state, therefore a marriage in State A is a marriage in State B. By the way, the Full faith and credit clause is written down in the constitution.

To Brad's point. I think you have good points here, but you do go a little overboard by stating that Gays are shoving their rights down the throats of vast majority of Americans. As I recall the polls, the "majority" of americans opposing gay marriage isn't that large, less than 10% bigger than the minority, thus not a vast majority. Further, in certain parts of the United States, that "Vast majority" is actually a minority. Take Oregon, or California. Never make the mistake that there exists a majority of the population just because the voting majority chose something. Since not even a majority of the voting age population voted for Al Gore in 2000 his whining is even sillier, but part of the same point.

Cheers
on Feb 25, 2004
He should have never taken any stance on it at all. This is an election tactic for all the idiots that were asking why the President wasn't taking a stand.

I SO agree with you....and with his speech yesterday, he lost the vote of this long time Republican come November.
on Feb 25, 2004
I will take exception to your comment about gays " trying to shove their values down the throats of the vast majority of Americans." I think really they would just like to have the same opportunity and legal rights.

As do I....SOME gays may do that, but the majority of them merely want the right to live their lives with the same benefits and rights as straight Americans. If we pass this amendment, we effectively make them second class citizens, and take a major step backward in this country. How many years have African Americans been fighting just exactly this same battle...and what's the point of the Civil Rights Act if things like this can occur?
on Feb 25, 2004
A vast majority of the populace opposed interracial marraiges, a vast majority opposed women's rights to vote, a very large portion of the country even opposed the abolishment of slavery. You can not always go with the voice of the people to determine policies such as these, doing so takes away freedoms from the minority groups. Also, the purpose of constitutional amendments is to protect freedoms, not limit them.

That said, I think there needs to be a change in how marraige/civil unions are recognized by the government. In my opinion, the word "marraige" should be removed from all government documents and laws and replaced with the term "civil union" Let the meaning of marraige be left to churches, and the legal aspects left to apply to the more broad categorization. The government can't deny benefits on the basis of color, gender, age or political ideology... why then should they be able to on the basis of sexual preference?
on Feb 25, 2004
A clarification:
I found this in an article from the Slate website:

“For one thing, there is an established trapdoor to the full faith and credit clause: The courts have long held that no state should be forced to recognize a marriage sanctioned by another state if that marriage offends a deeply held public policy of the second state. States have been permitted to refuse to recognize marriages from states with different policies toward polygamy, miscegenation, or consanguinity for decades.”

So, it becomes a problem for the same-sex couple moving from Vermont to say Alabama (if Alabama passes a non-civil union law). What rights would the couple will have? Of course it could then go to the Supreme Court. That could be interesting.


Jalbert
on Feb 25, 2004
I see why Rom is anonymous. Nowhere in his argument did he actually show that the definition of marriage ever changed from being between a man and a woman. Matter of fact, he never gave an example of how it changed at all. Those things he talked about were just changes in how different religions treated it. Here in the US it is still a lifetime binding contract. If you breach it, you are apt to pay alimony for the rest of your life.

Zoomba, I don't agree with taking marriage out completely. So what you are proposing is that religious couples would still be married but others would be "united"? I don't see that.

I agree with Brad that the government should recognize civil unions for gays with the same benefits as married couples.

InfoGeek, you are right, currently they wouldn't have any rights outside of the state that got "married" in.
on Feb 25, 2004
Alimony isn't even that common. One parter has to basically not work for many years (7, 9, something like that) before they have rights to collect alimony.

The real problem is that when we talk about marriage, there are two different asspects associated with this one thing. On the one side, there is the legal aspect. This of course is what gives each person specific rights under the law, and it is the side that government has to be involved in (law = government). On the other hand, there is ther personal/religious aspect (everything about marriage that doesn't have to do with legal rights). Everything gets tripped up when people are of the opinion that gay marriage should be disallowed because of the own personal/moral/religious/etc beliefs, and then the legal aspect of marriage is denied to go along with that.
on Feb 25, 2004
There are so many more important topics up for discussion - I'll be surprised if anyone's vote (other than homosexuals) actually hinges on this issue. Despite the grandstanding this issue doesn't even appear on the radar.
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