Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Easing up on the demands
Published on October 8, 2005 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Back in 1992 I was in college and was writing a computer game called Galactic Civilizations for IBM's OS/2 operating system.  I hung out on Usenet's comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and almost like a collaborative design team, the users on that news group, where I was (and still am) a regular put together the features for this game.

I had started a little company called Stardock Systems in order to help pay for school and this game was being done under that umbrella.  IBM was very kind and sent me some software and tools and "red books" to help me write it. I also had bought Teach Yourself C in 21 days in order to program it.  The game also started a tradition that lasts to this day -- open betas.  Users who pre-ordered the game could participate in the beta program and tell us what they wanted changed or tweaked in the game. 

 for {product/platform} screenshot 1The betas were released in late 1993 and 1994.  But unknownst to us, we weren't the only ones interested in making a space-based strategy game.  Another new company had been started called Simtex and they had made a game called Master of Orion.   It was released at Christmas 1993. 

Because they were separated by OS platforms, the two existed side-by-side.  One might argue that we made the wrong choice in choosing OS/2.  After all, Master of Orion is considered a classic while Galactic Civilizations on OS/2 was a technological footnote.  But in reality, could a game written by a 20 year old college student in his spare time have gotten the kind of coverage that Galactic Civilizations received if it weren't for OS/2?  The publicity Galactic Civilizations received helped build the momentum that takes Stardock to where it is today.  Or put another way, Stardock exists today, many game developers in that time have long since vanished.

Master of Orion and Galactic Civilizations wouldn't tangle again so directly until 2003 when Galactic Civilizations for Windows and Master of Orion 3 would face off.  Since I made the original and was designing the new one, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.  Master of Orion 3 was made by a different company - though on a much higher budget.

This time they were both on the same platform and during development, there were heated discussion by fans of each (which typically involved people on moo3.com slagging GalCiv).  Since GalCiv had an open beta, and anyone who's been in one of our betas knows how crappy our games are until the very end, the MOO fans could rightly point out how ugly GalCiv was looking.  We were competing against something that had no open beta, just a few choice screenshots that looked, admittedly pretty good.

Then Master of Orion 3 shipped and things changed.  Regardless of ones feelings on Master of Orion 3, it was not what fans were expecting. What I think many fans wanted was Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics.  Master of Orion 3 was many things but it was not Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics, it was very different.

Master of Orion 3 actually sold better than Galactic Civilizations -- a lot better.  3 years of pre-ordered ensured it had a massive foot print at retail.  When it came out you could find rows and rows of Master of Orion 3 boxes and then would have to dig around to find a box of Galactic Civilizations.  Still, the game sold well with nearly 100,000 sold in North America either directly from Stardock or through retail via Strategy First.  Some unknown number (probably around 50,000) was sold overseas.  Not too bad.

The reviews of Master of Orion 3 and sales (when compared to its budget) made it unlikely that Atari would be doing a Master of Orion 4 any time soon.  GalCiv, whose budget was about 1/10th of MOO 3's, was ready to do a sequel with a bigger budget and a more vigorous marketing strategy.

So what about all those Master of Orion 3 fans who wanted MOO 2.5?  If my email inbox along with forum posts are any indication, they would have Galactic Civilizations II be that game.  But it isn't.  It's not supposed to be.  The forums really only give a taste of the nit-picking that MOO fans submit but it's there.  Whether it be demands for players to do orbital bombardments without having to invade the planet to demands for tactical combat ("I should be able to select which weapon fires on which ship!").

That isn't to say we won't put in good ideas when we hear them.  But Galactic Civilizations has always been a strategic game.  It's never been a game about tactics.  It's literally a class of civilizations.  You're building a civilization and you want to see how it is able to compete against other civilizations.  Ship design was added for the sequel not to be more like Master of Orion but to help extend the clash of civilizations story-arc: Players can take different weapons and defense technology paths and it would have become ridiculously complicated to stick with the "Technology gives you Ship X" methodology that GalCiv I gave you.  We had to have a way for players to choose what types of weaponry and defenses to put on their ships.  The 3D engine made it too tempting not to let people visually design their own ships.

Fleet battles in Galactic Civilizations II carries forward the clash of civilizations vision as well.  Because fleet sizes are limited by ones logistics ability, it forces players to decide whether to focus on a few huge ships or fleets of smaller ships.  Ultimately, the game revolves around whose civilization can adapt best technologically, culturally, industrially, and militarily to a given random galaxy with a given random mix of aliens controlled by carefully designed AI algorithms.

Master of Orion is not designed to be a clash of civilizations in this sense in my view.  It's a clash of militaries.  In MOO, at any level, cranking out the ships was rarely an issue. In the original, fleets of 30,000 ships was not uncommon.  The game down to being able to design the most effective ships and match them to your own tactical battle strategy the best.  The end-game typically revolved around a genocide run with each player zipping into a system with a massive fleet (held back by how large a USHORT was -- 65,535 ships in a group) and wiping out the planet.  The player with the faster ships could annihilate faster and thus win the game.

A fairly well known story about me and Master of Orion involves the birth my first son.  I played Master of Orion 2 in the delivery room on a laptop while waiting for my son to be born.  Hence, I know when MOO2 shipped because I was playing it on November 30, 1996 when it was still very new.  Or put another way, I'm a MOO fan too.  But that doesn't mean I want to clone it anymore than I want to clone Civilization (which, after all, has a very similar title). 

At the end of the day, we have our own ideas on what makes a fun game and want to pursue that.  And I can sympathize with Master of Orion fans who, ten years after MOO 2's release, are still looking for what they see as a "true sequel".  But please stop trying to push MOO on us.  We don't see being different from MOO as a flaw. 


Comments (Page 6)
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on Apr 12, 2006
Interesting so basically, tactics don't matter. It doesn't matter if you have the most boneheaded general in charge of the army.... Nothing would change.
on Apr 12, 2006
Real brilliant straw-man argument there. No one said tactics don't matter, but in a war of attrition, production can be more important. I'll give you a few real examples.

General Lee was the better general during the American Civil War, didn't make a difference in the end did it? Several of the Union Generals were totally incompetent, but it didn't change the outcome. It just delayed it.

Everyone knows who was the best general of the Second Punic wars. How did that turn out?

Who had the better generals in World War 2?

Better tactics, and generals can lose to overwhelming odds. The bigger and longer a war, the more it favors production.
on Apr 13, 2006
Yes, that's true and I would also add that the more modern a war the more production matters. Germany lost WWI because the blockade by the Royal Navy forced the Germans to adopt dangerously aggressive tactics in the latter part of the war. The Germans did well at the start of WWII due to superior strategy (not tactics, which BTW is more at the level of captains than generals) namely blitzkrieg, which relied on superior technology. Germany lost WWII because they were outnumbered (by Russia) and out produced (by America). A tiger could kill 4 Shermans before being destroyed, but America was producing 10 Shermans for every tiger. So logistics beat strategy and tactics both times, remember "A victorious warrior wins first and then goes to war, while a defeated warrior goes to war first and then seeks to win" as for tactics, that's what the random numbers in the combat system are for.
on Apr 13, 2006
My thoughts on the moo vs gc debate.....

The main difference as I see it is that the folks behind gc are willing to sacrifice a lot of fairly easilly implementable features because they would be hard to integrate into the ai, without giving the ai cheats.

Take tactical combat for instance. Tactical combat as complex as moo2 could be, would be pretty impossible to get an ai to be successful at. Someone else in this thread gave a nice example of tactical combat in moo2. Getting an ai to act that smart in the actual fight, and set up fleets that work well with specific tactics vs specific situations and so on is certainly beyond the scope of what I think anyone is capable of scripting. Chess only has 64 squares and 6 different pieces, yet its only a few years ago that a chess computer actually beat the best humanity had to offer. Just think on it a bit and you ll see how ludicrous it is to expect an ai to successfully manage ship design and tacticallly sound useage of said ships.

So 3 solutions exist to this, 1 is to just implement it and let the computer suck at it- this gives the human a massive advantage (moo2). The second is to simply disallow it (gc). The third is to allow it, but try to compensate by giving the computer advantages in other areas- this naturally is a risky proposition that can propagate issues into unforseen areas.

I loved moo2 tactical combat, but it was a huge advantage over the ai. There wasnt much the computer could do versus b-lining technologically to mirv-nukes. The computer never tried to capture antaran raiders and reverse-engineer technology that was unique to them, get xentronium armor mid-game and you've basically won. Late game, the cheese was pretty extreme. You could quite easilly construct single ships that could take out entire squadrons of doomstars. Time warp facilitator / phasing cloak exploiting or massive stacking of autofire disruptors with supportive beam dmg modules.

In short it was very very broken.

Ship combat in gc is a lot more boring but at least its pretty balanced between ai and player. If you want to outsmart the ai its harder, which is a good thing I think. You have to do it at a macro-level pretty much. Discover what its focusing on and counter it with your tech-choices and ship designs. You cant really out-cheese it on a micro-level.


/rant off

just had to get that out.

on Apr 13, 2006
on a side note I really would like to see a way to destroy planets entirely. It would open up new strategic options that I think the game would benefit from. Attach an diplomatic penalty if needed to balance it, just give us the option.
on Apr 13, 2006
I'm an old timer when it comes to games, and I've played MoO 1 since its release for so many years when I was still at college. Then MoO 2 came out and it was just perfect. I've played it till very recently cause there was no better. I was waiting for Moo3 for so many years, and I was so excited the day I got it.

So, I installed my dear Moo3 and was utterly shocked and disgusted to say the least. I stood there for hours fumbling with the game, and for the life of me I could not understand what the hell they did to my most beloved game!

I removed it reluctantly after hours of trying to make sense of such a grewsome disaster. That was the worst game I had ever seen. It was a complete farce and a total waste of money. It now sits in a duty corner because I was not able to get a refund. Years later, I reinstalled it hoping that I matured enough to digest it, only to realise that MoO3 is unplayable, PERIOD. It was not a game, I just don't know what it was other than an utter failure and a complete moronic excuse for gibrish confusing drawings in space or something just nonsensical.

Whatever sales it made, it was due to loyal followers' expectation (which crashed and burned soon after installation), and it surely was not played for more than a few minutes on any machine.

YES, I AM STILL VERY MAD AT THEM even after all this time!!!! grrrrrrr

MoO was dead (except for Moo2 which I still have).

Then, I discovered GalCiv 1. It seemed similar enough but still didn't have the edge, maturity and continuuity I was looking for. Still, l played and enjoyed it as a seperate game, even though my heart was still with MoO2 despite its age.

GalCiv2 changed all that and I finally put MoO 2 to rest. I still hoped to see some of the MoO2 features and ease of use, especially in the interface and fleet management, but also I soon learned to appreciate how different and trully amazing, addictive and challanging GalCiv2 is. It is a solid game that excels in many unique features, and most importantly it is constantly evolving in synergy with cutomers' feedback. Many companies claim that, but only very few actully care and deliver.

I very much enjoy being part of the GalCiv2 experience, and just seeing how the devs care about us, the players, and how they support us constantly and dedicatedly, I can't help but give them back my complete support.

So thank you and much kudos to you, Draginol and Stardock team.

Keep up the excellent work guys We are all depending on you
on Jun 22, 2013
There is a new project at IndieGoGo to remake this (and to save other titles from their bankruptcy auction as well). more info can be found on the SaveAtari site.  I know the plan is to open source a lot of the Atari code and support collaborative development.
 
SaveAtari project to save and open-source a number of titles:
http://www.saveatari.com
 
Master of Orion franchise page:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/atari-reboot-master-of-orion-4
 
Broader project to save a number of titles:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/atari-reboot-saving-the-atari-vault
on Jun 22, 2013

There is a new project at IndieGoGo to remake this (and to save other titles from their bankruptcy auction as well). More info can be found on the SaveAtari.com site.  I know the plan is to open source a lot of the Atari code and support collaborative development.

SaveAtari project to save and open-source a number of titles:
http://www.saveatari.com

Master of Orion franchise page:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/atari-reboot-master-of-orion-4

The broader project to save a number of titles:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/atari-reboot-saving-the-atari-vault

on Jun 23, 2013

Draginol
Moreover, we don't want GalCiv II to be that much like MOO because it is a different kind of game. It is not a tactical-oriented game. It's about building up a civilization.  MOO centered around tactical ship battles, GalCiv centers around building an overall civilization.  Military strategy is only one aspect of GalCiv.  In MOO, it was all about the military.

This is exactly what I like about GalCiv2. 

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