Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Easing up on the demands
Published on October 8, 2005 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Back in 1992 I was in college and was writing a computer game called Galactic Civilizations for IBM's OS/2 operating system.  I hung out on Usenet's comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and almost like a collaborative design team, the users on that news group, where I was (and still am) a regular put together the features for this game.

I had started a little company called Stardock Systems in order to help pay for school and this game was being done under that umbrella.  IBM was very kind and sent me some software and tools and "red books" to help me write it. I also had bought Teach Yourself C in 21 days in order to program it.  The game also started a tradition that lasts to this day -- open betas.  Users who pre-ordered the game could participate in the beta program and tell us what they wanted changed or tweaked in the game. 

 for {product/platform} screenshot 1The betas were released in late 1993 and 1994.  But unknownst to us, we weren't the only ones interested in making a space-based strategy game.  Another new company had been started called Simtex and they had made a game called Master of Orion.   It was released at Christmas 1993. 

Because they were separated by OS platforms, the two existed side-by-side.  One might argue that we made the wrong choice in choosing OS/2.  After all, Master of Orion is considered a classic while Galactic Civilizations on OS/2 was a technological footnote.  But in reality, could a game written by a 20 year old college student in his spare time have gotten the kind of coverage that Galactic Civilizations received if it weren't for OS/2?  The publicity Galactic Civilizations received helped build the momentum that takes Stardock to where it is today.  Or put another way, Stardock exists today, many game developers in that time have long since vanished.

Master of Orion and Galactic Civilizations wouldn't tangle again so directly until 2003 when Galactic Civilizations for Windows and Master of Orion 3 would face off.  Since I made the original and was designing the new one, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.  Master of Orion 3 was made by a different company - though on a much higher budget.

This time they were both on the same platform and during development, there were heated discussion by fans of each (which typically involved people on moo3.com slagging GalCiv).  Since GalCiv had an open beta, and anyone who's been in one of our betas knows how crappy our games are until the very end, the MOO fans could rightly point out how ugly GalCiv was looking.  We were competing against something that had no open beta, just a few choice screenshots that looked, admittedly pretty good.

Then Master of Orion 3 shipped and things changed.  Regardless of ones feelings on Master of Orion 3, it was not what fans were expecting. What I think many fans wanted was Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics.  Master of Orion 3 was many things but it was not Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics, it was very different.

Master of Orion 3 actually sold better than Galactic Civilizations -- a lot better.  3 years of pre-ordered ensured it had a massive foot print at retail.  When it came out you could find rows and rows of Master of Orion 3 boxes and then would have to dig around to find a box of Galactic Civilizations.  Still, the game sold well with nearly 100,000 sold in North America either directly from Stardock or through retail via Strategy First.  Some unknown number (probably around 50,000) was sold overseas.  Not too bad.

The reviews of Master of Orion 3 and sales (when compared to its budget) made it unlikely that Atari would be doing a Master of Orion 4 any time soon.  GalCiv, whose budget was about 1/10th of MOO 3's, was ready to do a sequel with a bigger budget and a more vigorous marketing strategy.

So what about all those Master of Orion 3 fans who wanted MOO 2.5?  If my email inbox along with forum posts are any indication, they would have Galactic Civilizations II be that game.  But it isn't.  It's not supposed to be.  The forums really only give a taste of the nit-picking that MOO fans submit but it's there.  Whether it be demands for players to do orbital bombardments without having to invade the planet to demands for tactical combat ("I should be able to select which weapon fires on which ship!").

That isn't to say we won't put in good ideas when we hear them.  But Galactic Civilizations has always been a strategic game.  It's never been a game about tactics.  It's literally a class of civilizations.  You're building a civilization and you want to see how it is able to compete against other civilizations.  Ship design was added for the sequel not to be more like Master of Orion but to help extend the clash of civilizations story-arc: Players can take different weapons and defense technology paths and it would have become ridiculously complicated to stick with the "Technology gives you Ship X" methodology that GalCiv I gave you.  We had to have a way for players to choose what types of weaponry and defenses to put on their ships.  The 3D engine made it too tempting not to let people visually design their own ships.

Fleet battles in Galactic Civilizations II carries forward the clash of civilizations vision as well.  Because fleet sizes are limited by ones logistics ability, it forces players to decide whether to focus on a few huge ships or fleets of smaller ships.  Ultimately, the game revolves around whose civilization can adapt best technologically, culturally, industrially, and militarily to a given random galaxy with a given random mix of aliens controlled by carefully designed AI algorithms.

Master of Orion is not designed to be a clash of civilizations in this sense in my view.  It's a clash of militaries.  In MOO, at any level, cranking out the ships was rarely an issue. In the original, fleets of 30,000 ships was not uncommon.  The game down to being able to design the most effective ships and match them to your own tactical battle strategy the best.  The end-game typically revolved around a genocide run with each player zipping into a system with a massive fleet (held back by how large a USHORT was -- 65,535 ships in a group) and wiping out the planet.  The player with the faster ships could annihilate faster and thus win the game.

A fairly well known story about me and Master of Orion involves the birth my first son.  I played Master of Orion 2 in the delivery room on a laptop while waiting for my son to be born.  Hence, I know when MOO2 shipped because I was playing it on November 30, 1996 when it was still very new.  Or put another way, I'm a MOO fan too.  But that doesn't mean I want to clone it anymore than I want to clone Civilization (which, after all, has a very similar title). 

At the end of the day, we have our own ideas on what makes a fun game and want to pursue that.  And I can sympathize with Master of Orion fans who, ten years after MOO 2's release, are still looking for what they see as a "true sequel".  But please stop trying to push MOO on us.  We don't see being different from MOO as a flaw. 


Comments (Page 4)
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on Oct 14, 2005
I think the MoM thing fell apart due to items in licensing and contracts that Atari demanded of Stardock before letting them develop any of their old franchises (MoM and MoO belong to Atari through a fun series of acquisitions and IP purchases).

I think they also said at one point they pretty much want to keep it to 2 game projects cooking at a time (though I could be wrong), with staggered starts so as one ramped down, the other would really ramp up. GC2 is the focus right now with Society in the cooker. A GC2 expansion will probably slip in there somewhere as a side project. Galactic Federations (The GC Universe RTS hinted at many times) might end up being the project in 2007 (again, guesses based on cruising forums and IRC).

I remember seeing the concept art sketches for what they were hoping could have turned into MoM2... They looked good, too bad it never went anywhere.
on Oct 20, 2005
It's just a matter of resources. StarDock doesn't need the name "MoM" to have a good game, and successful hit.

Does Atari own the old SimTex titles outright? I know that at one point, the Microprose title/brands were being sold very cheap by Hasbro (which changed its gaming name to Atari, IIRC). That's how PopTop acquired the name to "Railroad Tycoon".

I suppose right now, with Civ4 coming out, would be a bad time to go looking at what they'd sell the title for. Too bad. But there are plenty of titles left to be used out there. It isn't the title, anyways. Look how many people ran out and got GalCiv1, looking for something a little more MoOish then MoO3!
on Oct 20, 2005
Lol. I just love the memories of MOO 2. I liked MOO 2 at the time too. It was a great game for its time. But it doesn't hold up very well today. The AI was a joke. It had a lot of micro management that totally kills it on larger maps, and it has really bad game balancing. It was good compared to other games then. But like many games 10 years ago, it doesn't hold up so well today.
on Oct 22, 2005
Preview in the newest PCGamer,
Their writer loved the early play tests he tried.
Good buzz from them will definitely help if the game is released as scheduled 1Q 2006.
on Nov 20, 2005


https://www.stardock.com/stardock/10year-images.html


check out the bottom of the page for a screenshot from "elemental".  i wish they were working on this instead of GC2.  hopefully it wont be forgotten about when they do finsh GC2. 

on Nov 24, 2005
Heh. I can't remember the # of posts I saw in Moo3 threads saying buy Gal Civ its a lot better than this trash [Moo3].
It's wasn't MOO nor did I consider it "Civilization in Space" despite the name. It is what it is. A kickass game. I like most expected MoO3 to be 'more of the same' with new races, techs, and graphics of course. MoO3 was hard to love, even for people wanting to give it a shot. Gal Civ 2, I'll jump on a limb for this, will come together nicely.. gamers and fans will rejoice. Stardock will be proud to tell people they created Gal Civ. Yes a total opposite of how Mo03 was recieved.

I'll gladly play Gal Civ 1 over MoO anyday. Can't wait for 2, but at least we have the beta for now

on Dec 03, 2005
Veteran Draginol: a man with an idea -> GalCiv is a game about civilizations and not about military tactics like MOO2 - I'll come back to this.

This is my first post on this site, but I have been checking the GalCiv 2 progress for more than half-a-year already. I just couldn't help myself not to comment (and it's 4:30 in the morning )

I have played MOO2 since it was released. It is on my short list of games that spent countless hours off my time: MOO2, XCom (UFO Series), DeusEx, Civ, Quake 2 and the Larry series (ah, youth ).

MOO3 was really a piece of trash. I actually managed to win the game by only pressing end-turn and doing nothing else.
And this is how I discovered GalCiv - searching for an alternative, somewhere hidden in a corner of a Romanian retailer, with no marketing and no article in any PC games magazine.

Indeed, all I wanted was a MOO2 with better graphics and some tweaks. I can't say that GalCiv gave that to me. Instead I discovered a game full of humour (the technology descriptions were really funny), strategical depth and better graphics than MOO3

Well, it was not perfect, as the fleet micro-management was a pain. It also laked ship configuration. And I couldn't choose to play another race but humans. Indeed, was different from MOO but I still liked it.

Right now, as I don't have the BETA from GalCiv 2 I can only drool at the screenshots and I'm trying to understand the new features from the forums. It seems like a lot of the above mentioned missing features are present in the new game.

However, what I want to point out is the business factor/opportunity that faces Stardock with this new release: there is a starving market segment that is crying for the attention of a game developer - the MOO fan base. I'm not trying to draw up Stardock's business strategy, but this is definetely an opportunity for GalCiv to become the uber space strategy title.

All it has to be done (and it's a bit too late now in this development stage) is to insert some of the features that made the MOO series (1&2) a huge success. For example Stardock may consider also the tactical side of the game, to implement espionage, ship officers, a star system like Orion (well, maybe not) etc. This can be made without affecting the core idea of the game.

By doing this GalCiv can still be the same as dreamed about by Veteran Draginol, but can also attract the huge MOO fan base and become a huge sales success. Hell, Civ4 sells great, and after all it's still mostly Civ1 with 3D graphics. Do not underestimate the power of the customers (I would love to one happy customer playing GalCiv 2.5 with MOO features inserted ).

Please don't get me wrong, I really respect Stardock (thus also Veteran Draginol) for the attitude against their customer base, and the way it build success in the market. Stardock is one of the very few companies that are still independent and listening to us. I just don't understand why not to profit more from us, while making more of us happy

Now, if you could add on the main interface a small button for "Purchase all on all planets", just for easy playing - I don't think that it would take much effort

PS. And yes, IBM is a very kind company I know, I work there
on Dec 05, 2005
MoO fans are, for the majority, going to love GC2. But again... GC is not MoO. It doesn't need to be MoO. It's just fine as it is.

BTW, tactical combat did not make MoO a better game. Indeed, it made it a slower game. It was nice to be able to see how your ship designs affected your combat, but it quickly became boring MM as you had to battle in tactical if you wanted to get the full bang out of your spaceships. Mega-Boring.
on Dec 05, 2005
I have no ammo to counter your position. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What's Mega-Boring for you is an orgasm for me

Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to play GalCiv2.
on Dec 05, 2005
Ok, just to point out the basic reason of why I liked MOO (& XCom) - which of course will differ from the reasons of many&many other people: I hate micromanagement of the planets (bases) and their economy and structures (modules). I need them in order to boost my research and thus to be able o discover new techs that will make my army superior while gaining power to build a ship faster.

What is the point (IMHO) to design a ship if I will not be able to play chess (tactical mode in both MOO and XCom) with my AI opponent to prove that my design (or the way I equipped my squad) is superior. The auto mode will just not do it for me. How will I know that I would not have been able to defeat the enemy fleet by using cunning tactics? An option of having auto mode or tactic battle would have been nice.

I just want to explain my reasons, no more. I am well aware that Stardock will not be able to please each and every individual, doesn't matter how much they try. But as much as I would like to think that I'm unique there are probably more people like me out there (sniff ).

As I said before, I'm looking forward to playing GalCiv2 and I keep my hope that at version 25.4 I'll be able to choose between the auto mode and tactical combat.

Cheers.
on Dec 15, 2005

BogdanRC - there will likely never be tactical combat because the point of the combat screen isn't to control your ships. It is there to visually show you how the combat system works step by step.

Combat in GalCiv is not nearly as simple as people think it is and GalCiv II has a much more sophisticated model.

First off, in ship vs. ship you have 3 different types of attack and 3 different types of defense. So being able to watch your ships battle it out will enable players to visually see how one type of weapon is being countered by a particular type a defense so that players can build better ships.

Secondly, the fleets work in a very VERY specific way. By being able to watch how ships fight it out, it takes the voodoo out of fleet battles. 

If you threw in user-controlled battles, however, then it would basically change the nature of the game. The player who found some loophole or incredible tactical strategy could win the game based almost purely on tactics rather than how robust of a civilization they created.

on Dec 15, 2005
You mean, like in MoO1 where you just put a Repulsor on your ship, and armed it with 2 space reach or better weaponry and in 99,999 battles (out of 100,000), your one ship would be unbeatable?

Or in Acsendancy, where you'd get large or better hulls and put in enough of the passive energy shield component so that your ships could never be damaged?

Or in ....

Well, you get the idea.

Yes, Great Boy of Frog. That is the exact reason I find people want a tactical layers. Any game that offers them always has multiple exploits against the tactical AI. Those exploits always become the dominant used forms of "tactics" in those games. Happens every time.
on Dec 22, 2005
Will "MoO" Franchise Be Sold?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138394
on Dec 23, 2005

Star Pilot: Precisely.

I've yet to see a tactical space strategy game of any complexity where there isn't some "trick" that allows a player to win totally lopsided battles.

GalCiv II about building a civilization. The tactics in war are a minor part of that.

on Dec 24, 2005
Ever give any thought to a "Wing Commander" type game ? I can already see at least three campaign settings GC1 + Expansion, & GC 2. Not to mention developing more of the storylines, inter-acting with existing races.
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