Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Easing up on the demands
Published on October 8, 2005 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Back in 1992 I was in college and was writing a computer game called Galactic Civilizations for IBM's OS/2 operating system.  I hung out on Usenet's comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and almost like a collaborative design team, the users on that news group, where I was (and still am) a regular put together the features for this game.

I had started a little company called Stardock Systems in order to help pay for school and this game was being done under that umbrella.  IBM was very kind and sent me some software and tools and "red books" to help me write it. I also had bought Teach Yourself C in 21 days in order to program it.  The game also started a tradition that lasts to this day -- open betas.  Users who pre-ordered the game could participate in the beta program and tell us what they wanted changed or tweaked in the game. 

 for {product/platform} screenshot 1The betas were released in late 1993 and 1994.  But unknownst to us, we weren't the only ones interested in making a space-based strategy game.  Another new company had been started called Simtex and they had made a game called Master of Orion.   It was released at Christmas 1993. 

Because they were separated by OS platforms, the two existed side-by-side.  One might argue that we made the wrong choice in choosing OS/2.  After all, Master of Orion is considered a classic while Galactic Civilizations on OS/2 was a technological footnote.  But in reality, could a game written by a 20 year old college student in his spare time have gotten the kind of coverage that Galactic Civilizations received if it weren't for OS/2?  The publicity Galactic Civilizations received helped build the momentum that takes Stardock to where it is today.  Or put another way, Stardock exists today, many game developers in that time have long since vanished.

Master of Orion and Galactic Civilizations wouldn't tangle again so directly until 2003 when Galactic Civilizations for Windows and Master of Orion 3 would face off.  Since I made the original and was designing the new one, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.  Master of Orion 3 was made by a different company - though on a much higher budget.

This time they were both on the same platform and during development, there were heated discussion by fans of each (which typically involved people on moo3.com slagging GalCiv).  Since GalCiv had an open beta, and anyone who's been in one of our betas knows how crappy our games are until the very end, the MOO fans could rightly point out how ugly GalCiv was looking.  We were competing against something that had no open beta, just a few choice screenshots that looked, admittedly pretty good.

Then Master of Orion 3 shipped and things changed.  Regardless of ones feelings on Master of Orion 3, it was not what fans were expecting. What I think many fans wanted was Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics.  Master of Orion 3 was many things but it was not Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics, it was very different.

Master of Orion 3 actually sold better than Galactic Civilizations -- a lot better.  3 years of pre-ordered ensured it had a massive foot print at retail.  When it came out you could find rows and rows of Master of Orion 3 boxes and then would have to dig around to find a box of Galactic Civilizations.  Still, the game sold well with nearly 100,000 sold in North America either directly from Stardock or through retail via Strategy First.  Some unknown number (probably around 50,000) was sold overseas.  Not too bad.

The reviews of Master of Orion 3 and sales (when compared to its budget) made it unlikely that Atari would be doing a Master of Orion 4 any time soon.  GalCiv, whose budget was about 1/10th of MOO 3's, was ready to do a sequel with a bigger budget and a more vigorous marketing strategy.

So what about all those Master of Orion 3 fans who wanted MOO 2.5?  If my email inbox along with forum posts are any indication, they would have Galactic Civilizations II be that game.  But it isn't.  It's not supposed to be.  The forums really only give a taste of the nit-picking that MOO fans submit but it's there.  Whether it be demands for players to do orbital bombardments without having to invade the planet to demands for tactical combat ("I should be able to select which weapon fires on which ship!").

That isn't to say we won't put in good ideas when we hear them.  But Galactic Civilizations has always been a strategic game.  It's never been a game about tactics.  It's literally a class of civilizations.  You're building a civilization and you want to see how it is able to compete against other civilizations.  Ship design was added for the sequel not to be more like Master of Orion but to help extend the clash of civilizations story-arc: Players can take different weapons and defense technology paths and it would have become ridiculously complicated to stick with the "Technology gives you Ship X" methodology that GalCiv I gave you.  We had to have a way for players to choose what types of weaponry and defenses to put on their ships.  The 3D engine made it too tempting not to let people visually design their own ships.

Fleet battles in Galactic Civilizations II carries forward the clash of civilizations vision as well.  Because fleet sizes are limited by ones logistics ability, it forces players to decide whether to focus on a few huge ships or fleets of smaller ships.  Ultimately, the game revolves around whose civilization can adapt best technologically, culturally, industrially, and militarily to a given random galaxy with a given random mix of aliens controlled by carefully designed AI algorithms.

Master of Orion is not designed to be a clash of civilizations in this sense in my view.  It's a clash of militaries.  In MOO, at any level, cranking out the ships was rarely an issue. In the original, fleets of 30,000 ships was not uncommon.  The game down to being able to design the most effective ships and match them to your own tactical battle strategy the best.  The end-game typically revolved around a genocide run with each player zipping into a system with a massive fleet (held back by how large a USHORT was -- 65,535 ships in a group) and wiping out the planet.  The player with the faster ships could annihilate faster and thus win the game.

A fairly well known story about me and Master of Orion involves the birth my first son.  I played Master of Orion 2 in the delivery room on a laptop while waiting for my son to be born.  Hence, I know when MOO2 shipped because I was playing it on November 30, 1996 when it was still very new.  Or put another way, I'm a MOO fan too.  But that doesn't mean I want to clone it anymore than I want to clone Civilization (which, after all, has a very similar title). 

At the end of the day, we have our own ideas on what makes a fun game and want to pursue that.  And I can sympathize with Master of Orion fans who, ten years after MOO 2's release, are still looking for what they see as a "true sequel".  But please stop trying to push MOO on us.  We don't see being different from MOO as a flaw. 


Comments (Page 2)
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on Oct 10, 2005
Can anyone tell me 1 good thing that was in MOO3?


Ground combat was improved? Went back to multi-field research? Overall, I like to think of MOO3 as trying to do too many things to some extent, instead of doing a few important things well. And, of course, the things done to some extent were not necessarily done well.

Im not saying MOO3 was bad (i never tried it) but In the sort of government the US is The Majority Rules Unfourtiuntly That system is full of inherint Bugs But i don't think theres a punishment that bad in the US even though its Corupt maybe China NOT EVEN THE SOVIET UNION WOULD DO THAT! (now they would beat the living crap out of you but not that...) You should try GC its a decent Game i own it and i execpt that GC2 will be Much better than the original if not perfect Doesn't have to be the BEST. Maxis Got that award For The sims as long with HL1 and many of the Old age Classics Which dominated the market in their times Now we got crappy and better looking games Monoplies have formed idoits seized imperial power...Though as they say nothing can last a hundred years.....what it means THINGS WILL CHANGE! its the way of the world....I speek too much don't i?

Um. What? May I kindly suggest you find a spelling/grammar checker or something, I'm really finding all of your posts difficult to read. I'm not sure what punishment for idiocy really has to do with the Master of Orion and Galactic Civilizations series' though...
on Oct 11, 2005
Frankly i don't play MOO2 that much. It does have lot of good things but the game was too fast and too unbalanced. Diplomacy wasn't very usefull either. The Galaxy map was smaller than in MOO. My order of preferences is MOO, MOO3 and then MOO2 at the end. MOO was almost perfect and has the best design of all 3.
GalCiv 2 will be an excellent game. The only thing i dislike in GalCiv is the CIV management of units...too much micromanagement. I prefer few ships or few fleets that are easier to control and i believe this is going to be corrected in GalCiv 2 with the new fleet management. I just hope we'll have the same huge Galaxies as we had in GalCiv 1 as this was awesome.

Cheers
on Oct 11, 2005
May I kindly suggest you find a spelling/grammar checker or something, I'm really finding all of your posts difficult to read


Comma splice.
on Oct 11, 2005
The galaxies in GCII will be larger.
on Oct 11, 2005
My order of preferences is MOO, MOO3 and then MOO2 at the end. MOO was almost perfect and has the best design of all 3.


Careful, that's dangerous talk in these parts.

The galaxies in GCII will be larger.


Ugleb expands mind to encompass the larger space, which was already, by the way big. Space is big....I'll stop now.
on Oct 11, 2005
To weigh in on this debate. Just cause galciv series can be dated prior to the moo series is simply a historical fact. It doesnt make it a better series. And because moo2 was the climax of the 4x genre is not just the fault of galciv devs, but largely the entire industry! If you don't wish to be compared to moo2 make a game beter thasn it is in all aspects. I would start with the 4xs. Let me compare the eXterminate aspect of the game, moo2 vs galciv1.... THERE IS NO COMPARISON! MOO2 KICKS UR ^#$! A sily graphic ship with some intrinsic attack/defense value ramming into another equally crummy ship, the encountered climaxed by a cheesy sound effect doesnt get anyone excited! A battle between drastically better looking ships using different arnaments which were placed there by the gamer, one launching missles and retreading, the other speedign towards it and using point defense lasers toblast bulk of the missles but still taking damage before getting within tractorbeam range and using a boarding party to capture the escaping ship onboard which the last defender sets off self-destruct rather than allow the ship to be captured engulfing the boardign vessle in an explosion which damages it's drive leaving it stranded in space! Now that's what I call eXtermination!

As you can tell I am disgusted that these series would be compared! Disgusted anyone would find it even for a split second reasonable enough to compare Moo series to garbage without divulging their breakfast to the custodian that will have to clean uo their desk once they are done puking!
on Oct 11, 2005
Someone forgot to close the troll cage I assume.
Hush, hush, back to your nasty cave.

**************************************************************
Dear Visitors,

please remember : Don't feed the trolls!

The park administration
**************************************************************
on Oct 11, 2005
It amazes me how emotional people can get about these games. That's what they are games, I enjoy them and are occassionally disipointed in them just as much as the next guy, but in the end, these are just games.


PS I know I can't spell, this is just a message board
on Oct 11, 2005

Thank you Astax for being the poster child of mindless-MOO fanboyism.  Not everyone -- or even most people -- agree that MOO2 was the pinnacle of 4X strategy games.  I happened to have really liked MOO2.  But I don't consider it to be the best 4X game I've ever played (the Civ series is better IMO).

Moreover, we don't want GalCiv II to be that much like MOO because it is a different kind of game. It is not a tactical-oriented game. It's about building up a civilization.  MOO centered around tactical ship battles, GalCiv centers around building an overall civilization.  Military strategy is only one aspect of GalCiv.  In MOO, it was all about the military.

on Oct 11, 2005
MOO2 was like all the Simtex games. Long on neat features and short on challenging computer players.
on Oct 11, 2005
I'll go different from everyone, the best 4x game I ever played was a PBEM game called Dominion. It was run by a GM usin g alot of spreadsheets (and some automation), so much fun because of the system and the added Role Play aspects.

If I wanted MOO2 again, I'd go play it.
on Oct 11, 2005
I should have made it less broad, 4x for me is a space strategy genre. Civ isnt a 4x game cause what are you exploring? Grass and trees? If I want to explore that I go to the countryside, hell even a park will do. Come on! Regardless, I find Civ more tedious than most turn based strategy games. Some might say its cause of depth, I say it's cause of... boring. I Played all 3 and will get 4th, but boring is the worst. But I liked the curve ball and I think Moo2 can stand up even to civ2, but they realy dont belong in the same category. Maybe is civ2 had unit design. On another hand if galciv was more like civ, then no one would compare it to moo series, they'd compare it to civ instead

And Psilore how is this a troll if its on topic? Your post was a total troll. It has nothign to do with the frikin subject, has no real body and can only be described as incendiary verbal construct (ie flame). I am however pleased you have mastered the shift-8 key combination. Kudos.

I had discussion with John Hamp in other thread already.
on Oct 11, 2005
I should have made it less broad, 4x for me is a space strategy genre. Civ isnt a 4x game cause what are you exploring? Grass and trees? If I want to explore that I go to the countryside, hell even a park will do. Come on! Regardless, I find Civ more tedious than most turn based strategy games. Some might say its cause of depth, I say it's cause of... boring. I Played all 3 and will get 4th, but boring is the worst. But I liked the curve ball and I think Moo2 can stand up even to civ2, but they realy dont belong in the same category. Maybe is civ2 had unit design. On another hand if galciv was more like civ, then no one would compare it to moo series, they'd compare it to civ instead


Broad? Your last post was pretty focused. It said "l love tactical combat therefore galciv sucks". Anyway.

4X genre. eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate.

In Moo and GC you start with 1 colony, explore space to find more worlds, colonise them (expand), develop them to produce more ships/research/taxes/influence (exploit) and then you finally exterminate the opposition through warfare or diplomatic power.

In Civilisation you start with 1 city, explore the surrounding territory to find good spots for new cities, build new settlements (expand), develop them to produce more units/research/taxes (exploit) and then you finally exterminate the opposition. 4x.

The entire 4x genre began with Civilisations. Moo1 and GC OS2 saw a good thing and made their own space based reinterpretations. The Moo series went for the tactical warfare focus, gal civ went for the strategic empire management overview. The key underlying difference between Civ and the others is setting. Civ is historical, Moo/GC are sci-fi. Past that Alpha Centauri (civ sci-fi edition) is planet bound, Moo/GC are galaxy spanning. You see a planets surface in one, a galaxy map in the other, but you do the same things.

Ultimately its all dressing, under the visuals they're all the same genre and focus on the aspects they think are most important. For Moo2 it was warfare, for GC its empire management.
on Oct 11, 2005
Comma splice.

Heh, bad habit. Change it to a semicolon. I'll probably have another comma splice in this very post. My other main bad habit is using rhetorical questions.

So as to make this post actually on-topic, I find it ironic that some people consider space-based 4X games as "dead." After all, when were they ever mainstream or "alive?" They were never particularly common at any point, and the Master of Orion series is very clearly the single most well-known of the lot.
on Oct 12, 2005
The galaxies in GCII will be larger.


Great...this is one of my favorite thing in GalCiv 1.

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