Americans need to up their math skills

Can the US remain technologically competitive?

Published on October 24, 2005 By Draginol In Business

The Detroit News just had an article on how the United States, and Michigan in particular, is starting to fall behind in terms of being able to produce enough qualified people with technical degrees (Physics, Math, Engineering, Computer Science, etc.).

When combined with the very restrictive H1B Visas to bring in good candidates from overseas, companies are finding themselves increasingly outsourcing for these key future markets. We're not talking outsourcing guys to India to work in IT or in sweat shops. We're talking core R&D, product development, etc.

Here's the article:

http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2005/math/index.htm

Here's my little part:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/project/0510/23/S17-357568.htm

Comments

Dr Guy

on Oct 25, 2005

Glad you could get the articles back! But the comments on this one were really great.

Draginol

on Oct 25, 2005

Yea, it's a bummer we lost some of the comments.

sunwukong

on Oct 26, 2005

Um, I believe I said something like

I never really got math in school and only the geeks used it anyway -- to count the money they "donated" to me during the school year! I've been in computers for 15 years just by smacking the back of the head of the guy in the next cube to get him to do my work as well. Outsource that!

Gene Nash

on Oct 26, 2005


Reply By: Tova7	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
I have a son in 4th grade.... The reason we are falling behind (and I can believe it) is because schools don't teach math anymore...they teach the national standardized test questions AND they teach math THEORY. My son can't just say 4 and 4 are 8....oh no....he has to show through some stupid Math theorum how to get 8 (It is "new" and out of the University of well, heck now I forget the college) with elaborate figures and boxes. It's retarded. It's so retarded that parents can't even HELP their kids because we end up teaching them the "easy" way and therefore the WRONG way.......so he spends hours doing math that in actuality only should take 10 minutes. And how is he gonna apply that in real life? Come on. What a pile of poop.
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Reply By: BakerStreet	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
I related my trials and tribulations on another blog about "Front End Estimation", and forcing kids to commit to estimated answers that were almost half that of the accurate answer. I agree with Tova, there's a lot of experimentation regarding how math is taught and I don' tthink any of it is working any better than the standard methods used 50 years ago. In addition, I think there is a LOT of redundancy. My daughter has already been taught the water cycle twice. Once in a life sciences type class, and once in something that looked vaguely environmentalist. I know for a fact that this is something that will be touched on again, later in biology class. I don't understand why we have to re-teach the same subjects 5 or 6 times at different levels of detail. You learn some science roughly the first couple of years, then you go a little deeper on the same material a couple of years later, then in high school you learn even more about it. This is wasted time. If teachers had the ability to teach math for 2 or 3 hours a day when it was really needed, when kids' brains are tuned perfectly to learn this sort of stuff, I don't think we'd be having this problem. We are so frightened of focusing on the important material, and I don't understand why.
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Reply By: DJBandit	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
I was a math wize in school. Numbers were a piece of cake to me. Algebra was like a second language. My son shows signs of being good at math as well. He is in second grade. Still the school doesn't seem to know how to teach math. Strange that he doesn't even know what mutiplication is at the age of 7. I am going out of my way to teach him math. I'm using personal experience and some computer software to keep him ahead of the class. I always liked to know a bit more than others even if it made me weird but that's just me. Eventually my son will chose his way of keeping up and as long as he does I'll be OK with it. I believe that education today sucks, but I place most of the blame on parents for not paying more attention to their children. I know todays society requires in many cases for both parents to work but they should still make time for their kids. Kids today are forced to learn on their own and don't have the proper motivation and therefor is the reason we don't have a good average or math students or smart students for that matter. Sad if you ask me.
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Reply By: Draginol	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
Totally agree. They have my son doing the same idiocy. We're having to teach him math ourselves at home. Memorizing multiplication tables, for instance, is very useful. Numbers, after all, ARE memorization. One, two, three, and so forth are things we memorize.
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Reply By: DJBandit	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
Math was so easy to me I figure that's why computers come so natural to me. Maybe I have been wrong (obviously) to ignore my passion for computers. Here's a good trick, get them to memorize the multiplication tables as if it was a second language (third in my case) it will help in adding subtracting and in algebra big time. I figure multiplication is the center of all math. Makes like so much easier. While you're at it show them the formula for paychecks : (paycheck amount) X 0 = (what happens if you don't go to college).
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Reply By: Dr. Guy

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

I came across this story today as well: http://www.freep.com/news/education/skulscore20e_20051020.htm

What I found disturbing was the following 2 quotes:

"Michigan African-American fourth- and eighth-graders scored much worse in reading and math than African-American students in the United States as a whole, according to national test results released Wednesday,"

"The good news is that the gap between black and white students' scores in math and reading within Michigan has decreased."

So it is bad that the black students have regressed in their scores, but good that the white students have regressed more?????? I would say that the Papers of Michigan need to go back to school!

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Reply By: Tova7

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

Memorizing multiplication tables, for instance, is very useful. Numbers, after all, ARE memorization. One, two, three, and so forth are things we memorize.

My son's "math" teacher told him if he knows his multiplication tables (which he does) he CAN'T use it to find answers on the tests....he has to use the math therum they are teaching and "show his work"....which makes memorizing any tables (multiplication/division) unnecessary....He can't say, "I know 9 times 9 is 81." Not allowed. Show it!.....yeah right...

They STILL aren't doing fractions yet...but boy they all know what a convex polygon is....and how many angles are in a rhombus. But don't ask any of them to add 1/4 to 1/2......

I won awards in Geometry in school.....but except when I hang crown moulding and have to cut 45 degree angles, I don't use it in everyday life.

Drrrr

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Reply By: Zoomba	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
I remember getting into a lot of arguments with teachers when I was in elementary school over my math tests and homework. The reason was that my mom taught me a lot of math at home, showing me the way she learned it when she was in school. It was simple and straight forward and I could arrive at the correct answers quickly and accurately. However, it wasn't the exact same method as what was being taught in school (it was just a different direction at the problem... we did have any of that new-math crap like front-end estimation) so I often lost partial credit on the problem because my process was "wrong". The reasoning behind this was that they were going to continue to build on the method they were teaching in school, so if I deviated from the method this early, as it got more advanced I'd just become increasingly lost. I fought that battle all the way through High School too. It wasn't until I hit college that I found math teachers who were willing to admit that the process to reach the answer was less important than the answer itself.
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Reply By: Andrew J. Brehm	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
Europe has the same problem. I just read that Germany now lacks experienced (or inexperienced!) network engineers and system administrators.
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Reply By: DJBandit

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

It wasn't until I hit college that I found math teachers who were willing to admit that the process to reach the answer was less important than the answer itself.

It seems that college should be more what kids look foward to. Wish you could just skip school and go straight to college. Gotta wonder with all this crap schools are using to "teach" students if they ever wonder how come grads are so hard to find now adays.

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Reply By: Tova7

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

However, it wasn't the exact same method as what was being taught in school (it was just a different direction at the problem... we did have any of that new-math crap like front-end estimation) so I often lost partial credit on the problem because my process was "wrong". The reasoning behind this was that they were going to continue to build on the method they were teaching in school, so if I deviated from the method this early, as it got more advanced I'd just become increasingly lost.

BINGO! That is exactly what is happening now too....the same thing with my son....they keep telling him he won't understand later if he doesn't get into the basic habit of doing it the theory way.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Reply By: Zoomba	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
I wasn't even learning theory, it was still basic math, just a different order of doing things. I think theory is a waste on elementary school kids. They need to have the fundamentals memorized. Sure memorization isn't fun and isn't considered on the leading edge of learning theory, but it's how we've learned math for centuries now. In elementary school, you just can't grasp at things such as "theory" it's too fuzzy without having some knowledge to back it up. What I ended up doing was learning how to do everything two ways. I'd do it first with my fast way, get the answer and then work backwards from the answer in the "approved" way. Another thing I drove my teachers nuts with was I had a programmable calculator before the school was using them really. I figured out how to translate the math formulas we were learning into the obscure calculator programming language. They got mad at me for doing that, but my approach to the situation was that if I was able to write a program to do it, I must know the formula backwards and forwards (since the order you do it in the code is different most of the time from how you do it by hand). It was how I taught myself tougher math bits. And as I learned the formulas better, the programs always improved, becoming more sophisticated and doing more. In my 10th grade geometry class I had a program that would do all sorts of things given just two points on a grid. I think the problem ultimately is teachers in many cases just don't know how to deal with kids who approach problems differently.
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Reply By: Tova7

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

I think the problem ultimately is teachers in many cases just don't know how to deal with kids who approach problems differently.

Yes. And teachers who have no depth of knowledge on the subject they are teaching....math is a great example...what elementary math teacher is really as master mathmatician? None I know of.

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Reply By: Dr. Guy

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

Yes. And teachers who have no depth of knowledge on the subject they are teaching....math is a great example...what elementary math teacher is really as master mathmatician? None I know of.

True mathmaticians are in extremely high demand and command a much greater salary in other industries. Hence, it is the hardest teaching position to fill.

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Reply By: sunwukong	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
It's a hard problem to solve -- the majority of kids just need the functional skills to get things done quickly. Most adults never need skills beyond this. But in order to get world class mathematicians and hard science experts, over reliance on rote memorization and shortcuts makes a high hurdle to jump when you have to switch your thinking 90 degrees. In my first year class in abstract algebra, there were about two sections of 30 freshmen. I suspect that the first dozen or so out the door (including a friend of mine) were suffering from "epsilon delta" shock -- for some reason the imperative to analyze and create formal proofs spooked them. It calls out for different streams for kids to cater to their goals (college or not, hard science or not) and talents.
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Reply By: Dr. Guy

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

abstract algebra

Isn't that an oxymoron?

I was a math major, and I hated that class the most! But I did manage a B+.

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Reply By: sunwukong

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

abstract algebraIsn't that an oxymoron?

No, that was the professor.

Sorry.

The closer to mundane reality a class was, the less I seemed to be interested. Couldn't stay awake at any level of linear algebra but tensor analysis and differential geometry were the neat stuff that led to the weird advanced physics courses.

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Reply By: Dr. Guy

Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005

differential geometry

Now that was fun!

(And it could have been the professor, but it sure was boring! )

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Reply By: sunwukong	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
Another big problem with trying to teach theory to young'uns is that it takes a lot of prepatory work to find out the "truth". For example: - first year: spend a lot of time learning single dimensional calculus and differential equations - second year: spend a lot of time learning real analysis, plus multivariate calculus and partial differential equations - third year: get introduced to complex analysis and find out that half of the pain you went through was mostly unnecessary - fourth year: get introduced to differential forms and tensor analysis and relive all of the old pain again Jumping from high school calculus to 3rd year complex analysis just isn't possible for the vast majority of people. Even though the first two years are equivalent to the busy work of memorizing multiplication tables, they're necessary steps in the development of the student's mathematical skills and (most importantly) intuition and confidence. As my old chemistry teacher used to say to us: "we'll try not to lie to you too much this year". In other words, quantum chemistry/physics is where you want to be, but here's where you'll start.
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Reply By: Zoomba	Posted: Monday, October 24, 2005
We're not talking about teaching calculus through memorization... I'm more referring to the fundamentals that you need before you can even approach the advanced stuff. Without the basics memorized, you can't even begin to comprehend even the most basic theory. I think it's far more important for a kid to simply know 4+4=8 than it is for them to know WHY it is so, or be able to prove why it is so. Learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide first... then start tinkering around with how it all works in theory. You need to learn to walk before you can run.
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Gene Nash

on Oct 26, 2005

Glad you could get the articles back! But the comments on this one were really great.

Yes, the comments and discussion were excellent. I had briefly thought to save them, but decided to wait for more to come in first.

When the db went poof and I realized these comments were gone I was kicking myself.

Then I recalled a time when Sir Peter accidently erased one of his articles and I was able to give him the comments to restore because they happened to still be in my cache.

With that memory, I quickly switched to offline browsing, checked the cache and *viola* the first 20 comments to this thread restored.

I don't know how many comments there were before things went haywire, but hopefully this will get the convo going again. If anyone else saw more comments than these, I encourage you to check your caches (the original "AID" was 90192) and restore them if you can.

Dr Guy

on Oct 26, 2005

Reply By: Gene Nash

Damn! I should have included you in my ode! Well done! Now I am going to search my Cache! Excellent idea!

sunwukong

on Oct 26, 2005

Reply By: Gene Nash

My one chance at coolness and fame -- foiled!

Ah well, time to pull my pants back up to my armpits and move on ...

We're not talking about teaching calculus through memorization... I'm more referring to the fundamentals that you need before you can even approach the advanced stuff.

I realize that -- the point of my posts was that introducing theory at such a young stage can actually be harmful for most kids since true aptitude for the stuff is composed of:
1. knowledge
2. intuition
3. confidence

Everyone has varying degrees of ability to attain 1 but (with very few exceptions), 2 and 3 require time due to practice and exposure to the problems, solution techniques and even the unique language that's used.

CariElf

on Oct 26, 2005

In addition, I think there is a LOT of redundancy. My daughter has already been taught the water cycle twice.

I remember learning the same old things every year, too. I don't, however, remember retaining it any better.

One of the problems is that kids forget A LOT over the summer. Kids could probably learn a lot more quickly if they went to school all year round, with two week breaks every so often.

jeblackstar

on Oct 29, 2005

I've long been in favor of teaching calculus at the same time as Algebra. A lot of the math becomes easier (fewer steps) when done in Calculus instead of having to factor and derive using just algebra.

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